Russian Figure Skater tests positive for drugs - delays ceremony for team medals

Coco

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Sotskova's positive test is not evidence of state sponsored drugging. She had retired and was taking a weight loss drug for her wedding. That she was tested after her career was over was a paperwork screw up. A huge penalty was thrown at her because she was retired and they could afford to lose her and if they could look tough in the process all the better.

As for meldonium, it is unseemly to take a drug off label to assist with recovery. But as it was legal, it is literally proof that they were seeking LEGAL MEANS to improve performance through pharma. That is literally the opposite of proof of state sponsored doping.
Oh, and there's plenty of evidence and anecdote that it was more than just the Eteri camp doping in Russian figure skating during this time period - Liza T. (Mishin) with meldonium, Maria Sotskova with document issues (Buianova), and Eketerina Bobrova with Meldonium (Zhulin).

I don't disagree with your other comments, though.
 
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MacMadame

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I think you're lying to yourself if you think this isn't state sponsored.
Or maybe I just have a different opinion than you do. :rolleyes:

But for real - what other country (outside of things like T&F and cycling - and only during the eras when doping was basically ubiquitous in those sports)
This isn't the strong argument you think it is. Because what you are saying is "except for all the other times it happened..." Not to mention, the time period you are talking about is fairly long and not that many athletes for such a long time period.

I see lots of evidence of systemic doping and a culture that turns a blind eye to doping. Less so of it being state-sponsored like it was for Sochi. There is less of a motive and a lot more scrutiny than before as well.
 

kwanfan1818

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There's also something short of state-sponsored doping that can be more insiduous, which is that the state has a big stake in the success of its athletes, the federation is state-sponsored, and everyone knows that the state wants victory and that their job is to get enable victory. The state doesn't have to provide the scientists/doctors, the samples passed back and forth in the lab walls, the clean samples to swap, and whatever they're calling the KGB these days to be the runners. They just have to let the people in charge use their ingenuity.
 

DreamSkates

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Here, drink this (take this pill, have this injection) should have raised questions by Valieva. I'm not buying the notion that she was an unwitting victim.
Given her age and likely dependence on her coaching staff for everything including being able to win competitions, and it might have seemed “the usual” in that training environment, she might have accepted whatever they gave her as a part of keeping her body strong. Being given whatever she was given, by a doctor, she might not have asked questions or if she did, the truth might not have been told to her.

Yes she should have known more or inquired and yes she bears some responsibility. But she was underage age ar the time.

For me, age doesn’t justify or excuse a choice but the broader responsibility is on the adults involved in her training and care.
 

coppertop1

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Given her age and likely dependence on her coaching staff for everything including being able to win competitions, and it might have seemed “the usual” in that training environment, she might have accepted whatever they gave her as a part of keeping her body strong. Being given whatever she was given, by a doctor, she might not have asked questions or if she did, the truth might not have been told to her.

Yes she should have known more or inquired and yes she bears some responsibility. But she was underage age ar the time.

For me, age doesn’t justify or excuse a choice but the broader responsibility is on the adults involved in her training and care.
This.

To me, the real kicker is the blatant hypocrisy and victimization. Russian hackers leaked Simon Biles's medical information in an attempt to deflect from their own doping but when people questioned why Kamila was on three different heart medication they cry foul. They're caught cheating repeatedly but play the victim and gaslight. They really need to have a seat.
 

Orm Irian

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Yes she should have known more or inquired and yes she bears some responsibility. But she was underage age ar the time.

For me, age doesn’t justify or excuse a choice but the broader responsibility is on the adults involved in her training and care.
Unfortunately, however, the rules say that in terms of what goes into her body and registers, or doesn't, on a drugs test, no matter how young she is the buck stops with her.

Remember Ashley Wagner pointing out back when the news first broke that from the age of 13, she was expected to know the rules and to take full responsibility for every single item she ingested and every single form she filled out - not her parents, not her coaches, her - and to understand why? If she was required to accept that level of responsibility according to the rules at 13, Valieva must be expected to do likewise, and to be capable of doing likewise - at 15.
 

airgelaal

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Name me a country where those who are caught doping are called victims? And not ordinary people, but everyone, including the president? In russia, almost every case of doping is the work of enemies. putin said that Kamila Valieva was a victim. Who now in russia will say that this is not so? Why do you need to investigate something when there is the president's word?
 

coppertop1

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Unfortunately, however, the rules say that in terms of what goes into her body and registers, or doesn't, on a drugs test, no matter how young she is the buck stops with her.

Remember Ashley Wagner pointing out back when the news first broke that from the age of 13, she was expected to know the rules and to take full responsibility for every single item she ingested and every single form she filled out - not her parents, not her coaches, her - and to understand why? If she was required to accept that level of responsibility according to the rules at 13, Valieva must be expected to do likewise, and to be capable of doing likewise - at 15.
Yelim Kim was given a warning for inadvertently being late for a drug test when she was 13.
 

karmena

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Name me a country where those who are caught doping are called victims? And not ordinary people, but everyone, including the president? In russia, almost every case of doping is the work of enemies. putin said that Kamila Valieva was a victim. Who now in russia will say that this is not so? Why do you need to investigate something when there is the president's word?
Exactly. It is what sophisticated and purposeful (and never ending) propaganda does; what subtle brainwashing does. Russians believe what is repeatedly implanted in their minds. And they support the war. That support is the result of the same propaganda machine.
 

taz'smum

'Be Kind' - every skater has their own story
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There's also something short of state-sponsored doping that can be more insiduous, which is that the state has a big stake in the success of its athletes, the federation is state-sponsored, and everyone knows that the state wants victory and that their job is to get enable victory. The state doesn't have to provide the scientists/doctors, the samples passed back and forth in the lab walls, the clean samples to swap, and whatever they're calling the KGB these days to be the runners. They just have to let the people in charge use their ingenuity.
I think you've hit the nail on the head here!
 

coppertop1

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Exactly. It is what sophisticated and purposeful (and never ending) propaganda does; what subtle brainwashing does. Russians believe what is repeatedly implanted in their minds. And they support the war. That support is the result of the same propaganda machine.
So, how can anyone even begin to fix it if it's so deeply entrenched? I don't see anything changing as long as Putin is in power. And sports are so intertwined with politics, at this point, the ban needs to remain.
 

karmena

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So, how can anyone even begin to fix it if it's so deeply entrenched? I don't see anything changing as long as Putin is in power. And sports are so intertwined with politics, at this point, the ban needs to remain.
I wish to agree but cannot. I do not believe any changes are possible even if Putin is not in power.
 

caseyedwards

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Putin didn’t create the Russian government control of sports or the mechanism that gives funding based on success. It was the old iaaf now waf that was demanding complete privatization of Russian sports to be reinstated! China has the exact same system but all doping in China is considered private decision by world athletic leaders but all Russian doping is considered state sponsored! Explain that
 

On My Own

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China has the exact same system but all doping in China is considered private decision by world athletic leaders but all Russian doping is considered state sponsored! Explain that
You do realize China has also had medals stripped away?

The paranoia is so unpleasant. China keeps screeching about how it's targeted by the west, and apparently Russian stans now want to point at China and screech about how it's favoured by the West. Pick one, or better yet - shut up, the lot of you.
 

VGThuy

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It's like having kids with competing interests. The oldest one complains that you treat them unfairly while the younger one complains that we treat the older one better. Ok, maybe we're just bad parents, but still....
 

On My Own

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I will point this out in Sun Yang's 2014 Drug Ban: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sun_Yang#2014_ban

FINA's handling of the case was criticized for allegedly "protect[ing] one of the sport's biggest stars in a key market".
Of course, Russia isn't currently a key market for skating. But do keep it in mind, it's not so simple, as us getting what we want.

The 2018/2020 one for Sun Yang is so much more complicated than I'd thought.
 

caseyedwards

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You do realize China has also had medals stripped away?

The paranoia is so unpleasant. China keeps screeching about how it's targeted by the west, and apparently Russian stans now want to point at China and screech about how it's favoured by the West. Pick one, or better yet - shut up, the lot of you.
Of course but China has never been punished as a whole because they believe that while all the athletes are employees Of china the state doesn’t dope it’s all personal choice unlike Russia
 

coppertop1

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I wish to agree but cannot. I do not believe any changes are possible even if Putin is not in power.
It's like deprogrammibg cult members

You do realize China has also had medals stripped away?

The paranoia is so unpleasant. China keeps screeching about how it's targeted by the west, and apparently Russian stans now want to point at China and screech about how it's favoured by the West. Pick one, or better yet - shut up, the lot of you.
Seriously. Play by the rules or don't play.
Of course but China has never been punished as a whole because they believe that while all the athletes are employees Of china the state doesn’t dope it’s all personal choice unlike Russia
Pointing and screaming about others does not lessen Russia's offenses. Do you have any proof of your claims?
 

Theatregirl1122

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For the record, I don’t think that Valieva is absolved of blame or that she should compete. But I disagree that only young people can be pressured by an oppressive regime, threats to their livelihood, etc.

Those who door should be banned. But people much older than Valieva have bowed to the pressure to dope with much less to gain. Her age is a problem because the rules make her less responsible somehow because of it. Not because an older person would have necessarily done differently.
 

caseyedwards

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It's like deprogrammibg cult members


Seriously. Play by the rules or don't play.

Pointing and screaming about others does not lessen Russia's offenses. Do you have any proof of your claims?
Of course. Sun Yang is a doping Chinese swimmer. But he is basically ward and employee of the state swimming program. He is a proven doper but all his doping is considered personal rather than state. Why?
 

DreamSkates

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Unfortunately, however, the rules say that in terms of what goes into her body and registers, or doesn't, on a drugs test, no matter how young she is the buck stops with her.

Remember Ashley Wagner pointing out back when the news first broke that from the age of 13, she was expected to know the rules and to take full responsibility for every single item she ingested and every single form she filled out - not her parents, not her coaches, her - and to understand why? If she was required to accept that level of responsibility according to the rules at 13, Valieva must be expected to do likewise, and to be capable of doing likewise - at 15.
True, but she needs a team that expects their skaters to abide by the rules and not encourage or enable otherwise. I would guess the culture of skating at Valieva’s training facility is not the same as it was for Wagner.
 

coppertop1

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True, but she needs a team that expects their skaters to abide by the rules and not encourage or enable otherwise. I would guess the culture of skating at Valieva’s training facility is not the same as it was for Wagner.
It's very clear that Russia treats it all as a joke, and are very defiant. Letting Valieva compete while under suspension. Russian colours on display and Tchaikovsky from their anthem. I can't imagine how frustrating it must be for the other athletes that see the arrogance on full display. Yet, the IOC allowed it. No wonder athletes have become more vocal about their displeasure towards Russia.
 

Coco

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While the war related ban is in place it is a moot point, but if the war ends and that ban is lifted, could the ISU sanction athletes who participate in events with Valieva?
 

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