Russian Figure Skater tests positive for drugs - delays ceremony for team medals

[Vagabond]

Does Kwan still get tested? Or did I miss the retirement announcement?

 

[kwanfan1818]

Yes, they do have to continue testing until an official retirement. That is why Sotskova was tested after not competing actively, but not retiring officially, and she received a long ban for taking something from a diet clinic before her wedding, not knowing or considering that it might be on the banned list. That is why someone showed up at Kyoko Ina's door late one night when her only skating was in shows. She refused the test and retired officially immediately thereafter. It's why they're testing Biles.

For them to test Zagorski, they would have to have kept track of where she was, since, per her Instagram, she's travelled extensively (Australia, France, UK). If the rules are the same as when Kostner's ex-boyfriend was competing and under the Italian version of RUSADA, she'd have to have kept RUSADA informed of all of her movements, and if she wasn't in Russia, would have had to have arranged for her testing abroad or have waited for her to return to Russia, if she has in between travels. So it would have taken effort on their part, even if selection is truly random.

 

[VGThuy]

Does Kwan still get tested? Or did I miss the retirement announcement?

Has she competed within the past year? And if so tell where where can I find a video so I can watch it a million times.

 

[sus2850]

Well, yes, it makes perfectly good sense. They are banned for two reasons: 1) the doping violations, and 2) the invasion of Ukraine. So, it is possible for one of the reasons for banning to resolve itself while the other remains unresolved. The Russian Athletics Federation (oversees their track & field disciplines) could have, indeed, made good progress toward changing the culture within their sports toward doping, as well as instituted the necessary measures required to lift the ban, and thus merit reinstatement on those grounds. That, in and of itself, is a completely separate issue from their government's invasion of Ukraine, and if the doping-related ban were lifted it would put RusAF in the same boat as the rest of their sports feds who are banned from international competitions due to the war.

As it is, the headline is a bit clickbait-y since in the body of the article, it makes it clear that there are still points RusAF needs to implement in order to lift the doping-related ban. So, who really knows what is going to happen with RusAF.

That first part is not true. Russia is not banned from ISU and other international competitions for doping but because iof the war.
The doping ban only affects the Olympics in 2021 and 2022 where the Russians were allowed to take part as individuals from Russia though.The Olympic ban was first for 4 years but reduced by CAS to 2 years.

 

[Karen-W]

That first part is not true. Russia is not banned from ISU and other international competitions for doping but because iof the war.
The doping ban only affects the Olympics in 2021 and 2022 where the Russians were allowed to take part as individuals from Russia though.The Olympic ban was first for 4 years but reduced by CAS to 2 years.

Excuse me, but I was responding to the questions specifically about RusAF. RusAF is banned from international competitions by World Athletics (IAAF) for two reasons - 1) doping violations, 2) the war in Ukraine. The doping ban from IAAF can be lifted without lifting the ban for the war.

 

[sus2850]

Sorry @Karen-W, I thought it was about skating! Should have read more closely, I apologize.

 

[greenapple]

The International Paralympic Committee vote to ban the Russian and Belarus Olympic Committees was decided by a decisive margin. It defies reason why the IOC is not following suit.

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

The International Paralympic Committee vote to ban the Russian and Belarus Olympic Committees was decided by a decisive margin. It defies reason why the IOC is not following suit.

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[On My Own]

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Does the Paralympic Committee not need money?

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

Does the Paralympic Committee not need money?

Perhaps the participants and their representatives are not so corrupt and self-serving and venal as those of the broader and more well-established IOC and its participating members.

 

[taz'smum]

For them to test Zagorski, they would have to have kept track of where she was, since, per her Instagram, she's travelled extensively (Australia, France, UK). If the rules are the same as when Kostner's ex-boyfriend was competing and under the Italian version of RUSADA, she'd have to have kept RUSADA informed of all of her movements, and if she wasn't in Russia, would have had to have arranged for her testing abroad or have waited for her to return to Russia, if she has in between travels. So it would have taken effort on their part, even if selection is truly random.

Both of the times Tiff has been back to Moscow since March, RUSADA appeared the morning after her arrival.
They were waiting for her return!
Tiff and Jon are taking a season out, they have not retired, so remain in the RUSADA testing pool.

 

[barbk]

Even if she did have suspicions, I seriously doubt that she would feel she could say "no" to a very powerful coach and a very powerful federation. Especially one that churns out baby prodigies and then tosses them aside as soon as they can't perform at the level they used to.

Then she's too immature to compete internationally.

 

[Theatregirl1122]

Then she's too immature to compete internationally.

If anyone who is “too immature” to go against a massive federation with incredible political power is “too immature” to skate internationally, that’s going to leave out quite a lot of adults. Pressure of losing your livelihood doesn’t only or mostly affect children.

There are lots of reasons to do with this story that make it clear that 15 year olds should not compete with adults if they can’t be held to the same doping standards. This ain’t it.

 

[coppertop1]

If anyone who is “too immature” to go against a massive federation with incredible political power is “too immature” to skate internationally, that’s going to leave out quite a lot of adults. Pressure of losing your livelihood doesn’t only or mostly affect children.

There are lots of reasons to do with this story that make it clear that 15 year olds should not compete with adults if they can’t be held to the same doping standards. This ain’t it.

It seems that a lot of figure skating fans aren't ready to have a conversation about the power imbalances and abuse that goes on in this sport. It's like too many people have learned nothing from the USAG scandal

 

[barbk]

If anyone who is “too immature” to go against a massive federation with incredible political power is “too immature” to skate internationally, that’s going to leave out quite a lot of adults. Pressure of losing your livelihood doesn’t only or mostly affect children.

There are lots of reasons to do with this story that make it clear that 15 year olds should not compete with adults if they can’t be held to the same doping standards. This ain’t it.

It seems that a lot of figure skating fans aren't ready to have a conversation about the power imbalances and abuse that goes on in this sport. It's like too many people have learned nothing from the USAG scandal

Really? Did any of the gymnastics adults push drugs on the athletes? How old is "old enough" to be expected to refuse to participate in doping?

Most athletes who dope with performance-enhancing substances do it because they want unfair advantage. Is Valieva any different? Should it get her different treatment?

 

[Ananas Astra]

Really? Did any of the gymnastics adults push drugs on the athletes? How old is "old enough" to be expected to refuse to participate in doping?

Most athletes who dope with performance-enhancing substances do it because they want unfair advantage. Is Valieva any different? Should it get her different treatment?

Trusova's dad was also an athlete and apparently he is strictly against any performance-enhancing drugs.
Maybe now that she left Tutberidze AGAIN, she might spill the beans on whatever is going on there at some point...I mean what does she have to lose at this point?

 

[MacMadame]

Trusova's dad was also an athlete and apparently he is strictly against any performance-enhancing drugs.
Maybe now that she left Tutberidze AGAIN, she might spill the beans on whatever is going on there at some point...I mean what does she have to lose at this point?

I guess the question is what does she actually know? The stories we have heard pretty consistently is that the team doctor gives them a little box (cup?) of pills before each competition that the girls call vitamins. We are guessing that these cups of pills are given out regularly -- such as every morning when they come to the rink or maybe they get a week's worth that they keep with them and take at regular intervals. But do they know what they are?

It's common in some training centers for athletes to work with a nutritionist and other experts and devise a supplement schedule. In good places, the athlete is very involved in the process and knows and approves (or vetos) everything. In bad places, they are vague about what the athletes are being given and the athletes have little say.

We don't know which is the situation at Sambo-70 but I'm going to guess it's the latter.

Most athletes who dope with performance-enhancing substances do it because they want unfair advantage. Is Valieva any different? Should it get her different treatment?

Again it depends on what she knows. If she thinks she's getting vitamins and other supplements, then why wouldn't she take them?

 

[Ananas Astra]

I guess, we will find out sooner or later.

 

[Lilia A]

I mean what does she have to lose at this point?

Her safety? I don't expect anyone to speak out against Tutka or anyone involved with state sponsored doping unless they're willing to go into witness protection in another country with their whole family.

 

[coppertop1]

Her safety? I don't expect anyone to speak out against Tutka or anyone involved with state sponsored doping unless they're willing to go into witness protection in another country with their whole family.

People need to take off the North American tinted glasses.

 

[MacMadame]

Her safety? I don't expect anyone to speak out against Tutka or anyone involved with state sponsored doping unless they're willing to go into witness protection in another country with their whole family.

There is no evidence that Sambo-70 was involved in state-sponsored doping. If they were, Valieva would not have had a positive test last Dec.

The situation looks more to me like a Nike Oregon Project where the TPTB are looking for any edge and are willing to bend and even sometimes break the rules.

 

[Willin]

As for why Valieva didn't question it other than trusting the adults around her - there's a fair amount of evidence and anecdotes that this is a widespread practice in Russia both in and outside of figure skating. Even outside of Russia coaches and nutritionists give athletes vitamin cocktails for performance. If they told her it was vitamins and she saw everyone else taking vitamins, she'd have little reason to think otherwise. And even if she did think otherwise, as you see on this very forum the "everyone does it" propaganda from Russia is very strong, so she may have thought it was acceptable on those terms.

People need to take off the North American tinted glasses.

Definitely! Any of these girls has LOTS to lose by speaking out. I'm not talking about being thrown out a convenient window or poisoned (though at least one doping whistleblower from Russia died under questionable circumstances). Whether or not this was just camp Eteri or state sponsored, the Russian government hasn't killed athletes directly. I'm talking monetarily.

If they admitted to doping, which they would have to do directly or indirectly to whistleblow, they'd stand to lose quite a bit.

Internationally they could lose medals and ISU prize money. They would also likely lose lucrative show contracts - and lord knows Japanese shows and fans love the Eteri girls.

Domestically, they would lose all their funding. Which they'd probably whistleblow after retiring so that would be fine. But they'd also lose steady ice show work, possible TV gigs, and sponsorships. They'd also be cut off from government perks of being a top Russian athlete: admissions to top universities they wouldn't otherwise be qualified to attend, scholarships, prize money from their government, free cars (though whether or not this is from the government depends on the situation), state jobs, invites to state functions for publicity, etc.

There is no evidence that Sambo-70 was involved in state-sponsored doping. If they were, Valieva would not have had a positive test last Dec.

The situation looks more to me like a Nike Oregon Project where the TPTB are looking for any edge and are willing to bend and even sometimes break the rules.

I think you're lying to yourself if you think this isn't state sponsored. The medicines used here are very similar in mechanism of action to others used in previous Russian cases - and are medicines that aren't allowed outside of soviet markets (and even then some are known to be not that effective and therefore not used much outside of doping). The doctor associated with the Eteri camp has also been tied to prior cases of likely state sponsored doping.

Oh, and there's plenty of evidence and anecdote that it was more than just the Eteri camp doping in Russian figure skating during this time period - Liza T. (Mishin) with meldonium, Maria Sotskova with document issues (Buianova), and Eketerina Bobrova with Meldonium (Zhulin).

As for why they announced it when they did? I think they were trying to hold off as long as they could, but remember the result was leaked to the press/rumored before it was officially announced. Also remember due to all of the past issues they're being watched very closely - this may have been something they couldn't cover up on that account.

 

[MacMadame]

I think you're lying to yourself if you think this isn't state sponsored. The medicines used here are very similar in mechanism of action to others used in previous Russian cases - and are medicines that aren't allowed outside of soviet markets (and even then some are known to be not that effective and therefore not used much outside of doping). The doctor associated with the Eteri camp has also been tied to prior cases of likely state sponsored doping.

Oh, and there's plenty of evidence and anecdote that it was more than just the Eteri camp doping in Russian figure skating during this time period - Liza T. (Mishin) with meldonium, Maria Sotskova with document issues (Buianova), and Eketerina Bobrova with Meldonium (Zhulin).

None of this is evidence of state-sponsored doping. When Russia was doing that, they faked results and interfered with sample taking. Lots of Russians having doping issues doesn't mean it's state-sponsored. Lots of US athletes in other sports are getting caught doping all the time. But our doping isn't state-sponsored.

There are many groups involved in doping. Individuals, individual training centers, entire sports federations (i.e., Cycling in the Lance Armstrong era), and governments (Russia pre-Soshi). Doping can be widespread without the government getting involved.

 

[Lilia A]

But Russia can't test their own samples for doping control purposes. They ship them off to Sweden because Rusada labs were and continue to be suspended after the Sochi scandal. Getting caught isn't proof of lack of state sponsored doping, it's just that someone messed up in the timing or the dosage. If they were doing their own tests, then yes, they could easily swap samples and/or report all findings as negative.

 

[MacMadame]

They can still swap out samples. It's one of the established techniques to hide doping and one that Russia engaged in.

 

[Lilia A]

That would be a bad idea.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Popping in this thread, we’re almost into the new year, there really has been no published decision yet? I thought it was supposed to have been announced in October. I just wanna hear Olympic gold medalist Alexa Knierim

 

[Vagabond]

Here, drink this (take this pill, have this injection) should have raised questions by Valieva. I'm not buying the notion that she was an unwitting victim.

You have every right to your opinion, but your opinion isn't evidence.

There is no evidence that Sambo-70 was involved in state-sponsored doping. If they were, Valieva would not have had a positive test last Dec.

The situation looks more to me like a Nike Oregon Project where the TPTB are looking for any edge and are willing to bend and even sometimes break the rules.

RUSADA's timidous handling of the Valieva case is evidence that Tutberidze's group is indeed part of state-sponsored doping -- not the strongest possible evidence perhaps, but evidence nevertheless.

 

[Willin]

None of this is evidence of state-sponsored doping. When Russia was doing that, they faked results and interfered with sample taking. Lots of Russians having doping issues doesn't mean it's state-sponsored. Lots of US athletes in other sports are getting caught doping all the time. But our doping isn't state-sponsored.

There are many groups involved in doping. Individuals, individual training centers, entire sports federations (i.e., Cycling in the Lance Armstrong era), and governments (Russia pre-Soshi). Doping can be widespread without the government getting involved.

This is the exact same propaganda excuse Russia trots out.

But for real - what other country (outside of things like T&F and cycling - and only during the eras when doping was basically ubiquitous in those sports) has had that many athletes both in the same sport, all from different training centers, test positive for banned substances in that span of time - and in 2/4 cases it was the same drug a mysteriously high number of Russian athletes in other sports tested positive for? Especially given that it (and the meds Valieva took) are not in common use for the health problem it was designed to treat, even in Russia, where it was developed. Heck, in many former soviet states meldonium is no longer on the market. So then how and why were so many Russian athletes at so many different training centers - some even in different countries - testing positive for said drug?

If you believe it wasn't state sponsored I have a bridge to sell you.

They can still swap out samples. It's one of the established techniques to hide doping and one that Russia engaged in.

Since this was one of the biggest allegations, I doubt WADA is stupid enough to let them find a way to try this - at least for big events. I know they have monitors on site for some Russian doping test centers to stop this very thing from happening, so it would make sense they had one on hand at this event as an Olympic qualifier.

 

[Jammers]

Is it me or does it seem crazy that the Winter Olympics were held just months ago this year it feels like they happened at least a couple of years ago.