Russian Figure Skater tests positive for drugs - delays ceremony for team medals

Allskate

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So it's better that US athletes just dope in their gyms. There are a lot of performance enhancing drugs being used in the United States.
In organized sports, the U.S. does much more to try to prevent doping and even prevents top athletes from competing at the Olympics. The U.S. does not have a government sponsored and organized effort to dope athletes so that they can win at the Olympics, World Championships, etc. Russia does. (That's why their athletes weren't competing under the Russian flag at the Olympics, which was a slap on the wrist.) Anyone with half a brain can see that this is a HUGE difference.

What happens in gyms has absolutely nothing to do with this issue.
 

Trillian

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So it's better that US athletes just dope in their gyms. There are a lot of performance enhancing drugs being used in the United States. You only have to look at fitness competitions and bodybuilding (and Instagram) to see how readily available they are.

Nobody is endorsing doping at any level. Athletes who are doping and organizations facilitating the doping should face consequences, and it’s reasonable for people to wonder about the status of other athletes associated with the same organizations.

The reason so many Russian athletes come under suspicion is the fact that so many of them are closely affiliated with an organization that has a documented history of facilitating widespread doping (the Russian government). American athletes involved in doping make efforts to hide their activities from their sports’ governing bodies and the government because anti-doping rules are actually enforced here. Anyone refusing to acknowledge that there is a difference is being deliberately obtuse at this point.
 

Hedwig

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East Germany had a state sponsored doping program and the effect is still felt for some athlets who never gave consent to it and who feel the impact even now. Be it in being broken and sick or because hormones changed everything for them.

To be in a system where you can either be doped or go home. Where you cannot chose coaches nor training centers and where you are controlled by the government is a whole different thing than single athlets deciding for themselves to do something illegal and go for doping.

That this has to be spelled out for some Russian apologists in this forum is so annoying and typical.
 

manhn

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So it's better that US athletes just dope in their gyms.

Is there another answer besides "yes"? There's a difference between a gym doing its best to prevent its members from not drugging up on their premises (or at the very very least not encourage) and, say, selling illegal performance-enhancing substances alongside their smoothies.

I mean, what gyms do people belong to?
 

MacMadame

Doing all the things
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The only places that systemic doping is going on in the US are at certain training centers. Everywhere else, it's an individual effort.

So when the Nike Oregon Project was still in existence and there were rumors of doping and some of the athletes there speaking out about it, should all the athletes be punished because there was systemic doping going on? Those athletes complaining were clean and usually left NOP as soon as they could.

Even where there is systemic doping, not everyone is involved.
 

barbarafan

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The only places that systemic doping is going on in the US are at certain training centers. Everywhere else, it's an individual effort.

So when the Nike Oregon Project was still in existence and there were rumors of doping and some of the athletes there speaking out about it, should all the athletes be punished because there was systemic doping going on? Those athletes complaining were clean and usually left NOP as soon as they could.

Even where there is systemic doping, not everyone is involved.
did they report it to PPL who could investigate & remove guilty parties?
 

MacMadame

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did they report it to PPL who could investigate & remove guilty parties?

What does it matter? Your original assertion was that anyone who was at a training center where one person was caught doping should be suspended, too. You didn't say "unless they were on record as reporting the doping." You said all of them.

(And, yes, at least some of them did. Though that wasn't known at first because they did it as whistleblowers who are anonymous for good reasons.)
 

Sylvia

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WADA's president Witold Banka was quoted in this Reuters article, published earlier today, re. Valieva:
RUSADA this week said it had completed its investigation into figure skater Kamila Valieva’s positive test and would soon be organising hearings on the case.
Valieva failed a doping test at the Russian national championships in December 2021 but the result was only made known on Feb. 8, a day after she had helped her team win a gold medal at the Beijing Olympics.
“We know the date when the hearing is so we have to wait until the decision and then WADA will decide what to do,” Banka added. “We are monitoring this issue very closely and last month I expressed my will that they have to accelerate the process. Now that we know the hearing could be very soon. Let’s see.“
Skaters from United States and Japan, who finished second and third behind the Russian team in Beijing, have still not received their medals and their wait will be extended in the event that WADA appeals any RUSADA sanction handed to Valieva.
ETA that I've cross-posted the article link & another excerpt in this relevant thread, here: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...-sports-worldwide.109484/page-10#post-6299166
 
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Maximillian

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There has been many reports of American sports federations 'looking the other way' with regards to doping (read about U.S. track athletes at the 1984 Olympics), so no, national federations are not necessarily policing doping at all. And much of the 'policing' is simply PR.
The fact that Russia has a state-centered doping program and the U.S. does not, only speaks to their respective political systems/philosophies. Not any virtue. In the U.S. if you want to succeed, you do it on your own, and that it includes getting the appropriate 'assistance.' As I stated previously, athletic federations will not 'hinder' and might in fact encourage the use of PEDs.
 

Trillian

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There has been many reports of American sports federations 'looking the other way' with regards to doping (read about U.S. track athletes at the 1984 Olympics), so no, national federations are not necessarily policing doping at all. And much of the 'policing' is simply PR.

I have no doubt that’s true and that there are probably even examples more recent than something that happened almost 40 years ago (which, frankly, I wouldn’t consider particularly relevant given how much science, sports, and geopolitics have all changed since then).

But the difference in a country with a far less centralized athletic system is that I would suspect the culture around doping to vary a lot by sport. In the U.S., what happens in track & field might have absolutely nothing to do with what happens in speed skating, just to pick a couple of sports at random. And I have to say that while I’ve heard a lot of inside talk from U.S. skating over the years and know a few things that could probably make some ugly headlines, doping is one thing I’ve never heard any gossip about whatsoever. No doubt it’s occurred at some point, but I’d be shocked if it was a significant issue in U.S. skating.
 

Willin

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@Maximillian @Trillian I don't even agree that US Track and Field even puts up with it any more. If they even arguably supported doping, they would've fought harder to have Sha'cari Richardson compete - weed is far from a performance enhancing drug. And the Nike training center in Oregon that got caught wouldn't have been shut down and blown up. (Edit: I forgot to add, that scandal involved a lot of international runners, not just US ones, which makes it pretty obvious it wasn't an attempt by any US sports body to gain an advantage) Today is hardly the 80s.

In addition, many of our athletes compete in the NCAA. That should instill the fear of god in them about doping. The NCAA does not put up with any sanctioned doping. They don't even put up with most vitamin brands.
 
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Trillian

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@Maximillian @Trillian I don't even agree that US Track and Field even puts up with it any more. If they even arguably supported doping, they would've fought harder to have Sha'cari Richardson compete - weed is far from a performance enhancing drug. And the Nike training center in Oregon that got caught wouldn't have been shut down and blown up. Today is hardly the 80s.

Honestly, you’re probably right about this. I have a gut-level distrust of governing bodies in general, because an awful lot of things have been swept under the rug over the years because of the financial incentive to avoid bad publicity. (And yes, that does include figure skating.) But even from a cynical perspective, I’d imagine most athletic organizations do want to discourage doping because the risk of getting caught is too high and in the U.S. it’s inevitably going to be bad publicity.

In addition, many of our athletes compete in the NCAA. That should instill the fear of god in them about doping. The NCAA does not put up with any sanctioned doping. They don't even put up with most vitamin brands.

True, and I would add that the general reaction of U.S. skaters in the media during the Olympics very much gave me the “fear of god” vibe too.
 

Maximillian

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I will reiterate, it's always nice to see people having 'faith' in their own system, however, to presume the 'bad guys' are always somewhere else, I just can't buy into that. And diurectics are considered doping and if you don't think skaters have abused diurectics, well...

And now, I'm out. Peace.
 

MacMadame

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Going on about how unfair it is to punish all of Russia for a state-sponsored scheme is missing the point IMO. The whole system including the parts that are supposed to catch doping were in on it. If you can't trust the people whose job it is to catch the dopers, then you can't trust any of it.

If it turns out that USADA and the USOC are involved in covering up doping in every sport they are responsible for, then all USOC athletes should be banned* from the next Olympics too. I also wouldn't object if it turns out that one of the sport's NGB was running a scheme like Russia was, to ban all their athletes just from that sport. But it has to be a systemic thing.

If you just catch a single or even a handful of athletes, and it's clear they are acting on their own, you can't punish absolutely everyone else in the sport.

*well at least as banned as ROC athletes were ;)
 

Trillian

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And diurectics are considered doping and if you don't think skaters have abused diurectics, well...

Of course they have. But I will say that I have been privy to a conversation about this among high level skating folks, and the general consensus - at least among that group, in that instance - is that it wouldn’t be worth the risk of getting caught. Diuretics are mainly used to mask the presence of other PEDs, and for rapid weight loss. Most skaters aren’t using other PEDs, and they’ve got plenty of other unhealthy ways they can lose weight without risking a doping violation. What I suspect is that diuretic abuse (at least in North America) was a lot more common when more coaches were routinely weighing their skaters, and less so now.
 

Karen-W

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A not particularly reliable source (championat,ru) publishes RUSADA found plausible enough proofs Valieva violated the doping rules.


I don't remember that being in question, but rather what RUSADA would decide was an appropriate sanction.
Well, that would be contingent upon at least 3 members of RUSADA's Disciplinary Committee being available to hold the hearing. There are 8 members and, according to the article, they are having difficulty coordinating at least 3 of them to come together for the hearing. The author then points out how quickly they were able to convene a disciplinary hearing during the Olympics. The implication being why is there difficulty now? And even I would say, well, other than these people all have lives and probably had their calenders cleared during the Olympics, but do not now?

The article also states that the evidence collected is so convincing it could be considered "aggravated circumstances" which would increase any ban/punishment/period of ineligiblity.
 

ChelleC

Anti-quad activist
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The article also states that the evidence collected is so convincing it could be considered "aggravated circumstances" which would increase any ban/punishment/period of ineligiblity.
I'm really wondering what these aggravated circumstances are. She was 15 when it happened, how bad does it have to be to consider aggravated circumstances for a 15 year old?
 

Debbie S

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I'm really wondering what these aggravated circumstances are. She was 15 when it happened, how bad does it have to be to consider aggravated circumstances for a 15 year old?
The cynic in me is thinking that given it's Russia, "aggravated circumstances" could be her meltdown in the Oly FS that cost Russia the medal sweep.

But it's probably something directly related to the case.
 

Frau Muller

From Puerto Rico…With Love!
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Could 'aggravated circumstances' be that an adult purposefully doped/drugged her against her consent or without her knowledge?
The criminality of that would definitely increase the severity of the case.

Dr. Schvetsky in the house?

That dude may want to lower his profile…such as, staying away from Kiss and Cry.
 
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TAHbKA

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I'm really wondering what these aggravated circumstances are. She was 15 when it happened, how bad does it have to be to consider aggravated circumstances for a 15 year old?
If I understand correctly the investigation was not on Valieva, but an adult (no idea who). Valieva admitted having the substance in her body from her grandfather, so they were not investigating whether she took it (she did) but who is responsible.
I am, however,curious what the ban will be and will Scherbakova become a European/World/Olympic champion?
 

carriecmu0503

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If I understand correctly the investigation was not on Valieva, but an adult (no idea who). Valieva admitted having the substance in her body from her grandfather, so they were not investigating whether she took it (she did) but who is responsible.
I am, however,curious what the ban will be and will Scherbakova become a European/World/Olympic champion?
I would not be surprised if they leave that European title blank as a reminder of what happened, a la the 1994 US ladies title. When Harding was stripped, the title was not awarded to Kwan.
 

aliona22

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I would not be surprised if they leave that European title blank as a reminder of what happened, a la the 1994 US ladies title. When Harding was stripped, the title was not awarded to Kwan.

Kamila didn’t cripple the presumptive winner! The title will go to Anna if Kamila is suspended. The ISU awarded medals to the skaters who moved up when Bazarova/Larionov were retroactively disqualified for a doping violation. No reason not to do the same thing here.
 

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