Ross Miner Out Of Olympic Team (OFFICIAL)

[becca]

Just because I don't think Adam should be placed on the team doesn't mean I am angry with him.

 

[Deleted member 19433]

I think if Adam/Jason/Max were all buried in the 8-10 range, and Ross was 2nd- Ross would probably be going. But Adam wasn't exactly buried, he was just off the podium.

On the podium, actually http://web.icenetwork.com/photos/264366398

 

[Willin]

Yeah, Adam seemed really upset at his performance. Being in the arena, I think he thought he'd lost his spot on the team. He just seemed devastated. And he didn't go out there to bomb - he was warming up and going onto the ice seemingly focused and ready. I thought he was going to hit it (or at least the rest of it) even after that 4Lz fall.

I have never really understood the footwork sequence calls at Nationals. I feel like most skaters are given level 4 but never/rarely ever receive them internationally.

Especially given all the really flat and questionable edges on the turns. It's much easier to tell in person than on TV, but seriously there were some egregiously bad turns in there. In synchro and dance they're super strict, as the called level can separate placements, but I guess they're more lax as far as singles goes since the footwork sequences aren't worth as much.

ITA that, while the tier system existed long enough to give notice, it has not been made clear how far Nats has fallen as a factor in team-picking. Not only was a silver insufficient to secure placement on the Oly team (normally, it would be the bronze medalist who got kicked), a silver isn't even enough to secure placement as first alternate.

Controversial opinion here, but I think they should discount Nationals, and I think they should say that. Heck, they probably do weigh Nationals lower than they say (as they did here with Ross), they just don't say it because they want people to tune in and come to watch.

As people on this very forum complain about, the judging at Nationals is wonky. This isn't because USFSA manipulates the judges, this is because even though some of the judges are international-level, many more are judges just happy to be there (as they don't get Nationals every year, and judging an Olympic year nationals is a particularly great honor). They probably aren't used to judging such big talent on such a big stage. That's probably also why the skaters in the lower groups are judged more accurately than those threatening for a World team - they're used to judging that caliber of skater. If you think about it, most of the Olympic team members and those looking in from the outside maybe did one club competition (although most did none), but none did regionals/sectionals. So this might be the only time these judges will ever judge/see those competitors or even competitors of this calibur, and that may lead to some wonky things.

But, I think the bigger reason is simply that international judging panels favor different skaters than US panels. For instance, Jason and Ashley weren't necessarily favored by the US judges until international judges began to reward them. And who will be judging the Olympics? An international panel, not a US one. Also, some skaters (Ross comes to mind, as does Courtney) perform very differently at Nationals than at international competitions - for better or worse. And the Olympics aren't Nationals - they're an international competition. So you don't want to send people who only perform well at Nationals, you want to send those who perform well at international competition even if they're not necessarily perfect at Nationals. Of course you should expect them not to bomb at Nationals, but as long as there's no bombing, I think that the international resume trumps Nationals.

 

[jlai]

I have been saying for years us nationals needs to get international callers in.

 

[jiejie]

I have been saying for years us nationals needs to get international callers in.

But that could lead to a different sort of manipulation that favors slightly weaker skaters for higher placements and holds down the strongest US skaters. I can't think of another federation--at least among the sizable ones--that brings in foreign judges for their national competitions.

Instead, I think the USFS needs to work more intensively with tech panels and judges to get their markings more in alignment to what international judges are seeing as to element calls and deficiencies, levels, GOE, and PCS marks.

 

[barbk]

Let's look at the clearest Body of Work case: the three top US dance couples. Given their impressive records domestically and internationally, is there any way (absent injuries) that you'd have a Pogrebinsky/Benoit on the Olympic team even if they'd managed 3rd instead of 4th? Any rational reason to tell H/D, C/B or S/S that they're not on the team, even if they finished 4th? Didn't we still have a great group of dancers below the top 3 -- and didn't each of them know that it would be extraordinarily unlikely that any but these three couples would be named to the Olympic team? And still, they competed and did very well. They didn't consider the competition wasted, and neither did I.

Body of work makes sense. Skaters are erratic, but patterns are patterns. Ross had one great competition when nothing much was expected of him. He had a lot of chances and repeatedly didn't make a lot of them. Even if Nationals has more weight than any of the other competitions, one 2nd place finish at Nationals with a whole bunch of meh results at other competitions doesn't much weigh in his favor.

 

[VGThuy]

That's true. Ice dance could be used as an example of competitors still going to Nationals even if they all knew way ahead of time who the Olympic team was going to be. That said, we only had 13 ice dance couples competing on the senior level. That might not be unusual though considering how difficult it is to maintain partnerships period and to even get skaters to go into ice dance comparatively speaking.

 

[annie_mg]

I never said he intentionally popped them. I don't think any skater messes up jumps intentionally. It can be due to lack of concentration or fatigue or just not trying hard enough, or as Scott says just a reflex from the body. That is fine for one jump but two in a row?

Yes two, or even three.

 

[Areski]

I never said he intentionally popped them. I don't think any skater messes up jumps intentionally. It can be due to lack of concentration or fatigue or just not trying hard enough, or as Scott says just a reflex from the body. That is fine for one jump but two in a row?

But you kinda implied that in one of your posts. YMMV
To be honest I felt the same watching Adam's LP, that he gave up.

Anyway I do remember one Polish figure skater who went out there, clearly out of shape and intentionally jumped double jumps on Olympic level in XXIst century, barely even practicing properly before her start at the Olympic Games in Vancouver 2010. She was not in any way upset after that, more like happy and all smiles for her touristic trip.

Her name was Anna Jurkiewicz. I remember being embarrassed ... she represented my country.

 

[SmallFairy]

But you kinda implied that in one of your posts. YMMV

Anyway I do remember one Polish figure skater who went out there, clearly out of shape and intentionally jumped double jumps on Olympic level in XXIst century, barely even practicing properly before her start at the Olympic Games in Vancouver 2010. She was not in any way upset after that, more like happy and all smiles for her touristic trip.

Her name was Anna Jurkiewicz. I remember being embarrassed ... she represented my country.

Anna is in Norway now, coaching

 

[Vash01]

But you kinda implied that in one of your posts. YMMV

Anyway I do remember one Polish figure skater who went out there, clearly out of shape and intentionally jumped double jumps on Olympic level in XXIst century, barely even practicing properly before her start at the Olympic Games in Vancouver 2010. She was not in any way upset after that, more like happy and all smiles for her touristic trip.

Her name was Anna Jurkiewicz. I remember being embarrassed ... she represented my country.

I never implied that he intentionally popped those jumps. It seemed like he didn't try hard enough.

I don't remember Anna J. I do remember Anna Rechnio. She was good.

May be Anna J. Just wanted to have a clean skate instead of falling on triple jumps? The 6.0 system didn't reward skaters for rotating and falling. A fall was a fall.

 

[snoopysnake]

Hi FSU-ers. I post rarely these days due to very limited online access (financially caused) and I can't access the K&C board here because I can't afford it. I am heartbroken over what USFS has done to Ross, whom I've watched at local shows since he was a little kid. He's my homeboy, much as Paul Wylie was in the 80's and 90's. My devastation knows no bounds, except that I'm sure that Ross, Mark, and Peter are even more shattered.

My request is this, so that I can find it easily (no time to read the whole thread, sorry.) Can someone tell me if Ross skated in the gala, if so, to what program, and how did he seem emotionally? Did the crowd respect him? Was there any "bad vibe" over Rippon or Zhou during the gala?

For the record, in my opinion, sending Rippon is probably a wise strategy, but Zhou should have been dropped, not Miner.

 

[Vagabond]

(((((snoopyskate)))))

Yes, Ross Miner did skate in the Gala. I haven't seen a video of it, but apparently it was to Bruce Sprinsteen's "Born to Run" and he got a standing ovation.

 

[wickedwitch]

That's true. Ice dance could be used as an example of competitors still going to Nationals even if they all knew way ahead of time who the Olympic team was going to be. That said, we only had 13 ice dance couples competing on the senior level. That might not be unusual though considering how difficult it is to maintain partnerships period and to even get skaters to go into ice dance comparatively speaking.

I said this elsewhere, but 13 teams is the lowest amount in an Olympic year since at least 1992. And I do believe the chances of going to the Olys being essentially 0% affected it. And I think teams like Cannuscio/McManus or Maxwell/Devereaux might have stuck it out if there had been a better chance of making 4CC at least.

And look at ice dancing in Canada. After V/M announced their comeback, essentially making it impossible for a lower ranked team to make the Olys, there was a huge number of splits.

 

[Areski]

I never implied that he intentionally popped those jumps. It seemed like he didn't try hard enough.

I don't remember Anna J. I do remember Anna Rechnio. She was good.

May be Anna J. Just wanted to have a clean skate instead of falling on triple jumps? The 6.0 system didn't reward skaters for rotating and falling. A fall was a fall.

Ad.1 Ok, I get it now.


Ad.2 As for Jurkiewicz, to be honest ... she's always had problems with her weight ... that's another matter. And there was no one who could challenge her for that single berth that she had previously earned placing 19th at the World Championships in 2009. I was happy for her that she did that though so I prefer having mostly this memory of her.

But those were not only jumps that dispirited me in Vancouver, everything else was so lazy and sloppy. Just shockingly lacking and made me sad, those intentional doubles just topped it up as I was excited about her start.

 

[misskarne]

I am convinced that everyone else would else receive < call for that 3A of Jason Brown in SP but they turned a blind eye to that so it was very telling as well who they favour anyway.

Can people please stop acting like Jason was the only beneficiary of a line-ball call? Dolensky didn't even get < on the 4S attempt in the FS that was clearly landed forward. Zhou got three < and one <<, but the flip should have been << rather than <, he could have been called < on the triple Axels, and let's not even go into the absolute travesty that was his PCS score. Rippon got < on the 4Lz which was a lineball could have been << call. Heck, Jason actually got harshed by the tech panel in the free skate when they called his 3Lo <.

Jason didn't even the best PCS of the FS.

If they were favouring Jason and trying to prop him onto the Olympic team, they had an odd way of going about it.

(Max didn’t give up on his program this year either, although last year he looked like he literally wanted to get off the ice halfway through. Neither man performed like that Saturday night.)

I'd go so far as to say that Max's triple Axels in that FS - in the second half, well after it became clear he was gone - were the best of the event. Absolute money.

(But he only got 74 PCS. In case anyone is trying the "wow USFS really loves Max" schtick.)

Nope. Max Aaron finished in 9th, after 8th last year... and he's going to 4CC above Grant Hochstein who was 4th last year and 5th this year. So they were going to send who they wanted, no matter what.

Go have a look at Max's international results this season and then look at Grant's. Max's worst GP was still massively better than Grant's best and he had higher average scores. I'm still not saying I necessarily like the decision, but it does make some sense.

 

[jlai]

Just to lighten up the mood, if two skaters tie in body of work, does it make it a bow tie?

 

[attyfan]

Maybe. However, my alternate theory is that the entire idea of seasonal "peaking" which seems to be so ingrained into US senior-level skaters and coaches, needs to be put in the dumpster and set on fire. And maybe the USFS, by moving to a BOW system, is implicitly encouraging the abandonment of the Peak Theory.
...

IMO, this will give a big boost to the younger up-and-comers as better trained in the "new way of thinking", just as when the judging system changed and those who were trained in the new mind-set on jumping (from UR or 2ft is better than falling to falling is better than UR or 2ft) had a big advantage.

 

[Bellanca]

Just to lighten up the mood, if two skaters tie in body of work, does it make it a bow tie?

 

[Seerek]

Just to lighten up the mood, if two skaters tie in body of work, does it make it a bow tie?

That was the USFSA's problem all along - they never considered all the possible scenarios, no matter how "far-falle" fetched they may have seemed.

 

[giselle23]

ITA that, while the tier system existed long enough to give notice, it has not been made clear how far Nats has fallen as a factor in team-picking. Not only was a silver insufficient to secure placement on the Oly team (normally, it would be the bronze medalist who got kicked), a silver isn't even enough to secure placement as first alternate.

In 2014, I thought Polina, who had no record at the senior level at all, should have been left off of the team but most everyone and presumably the USFSA, thought the silver medal trumped Mirai's bronze and her bronze medal on the Grand Prix. I do recall that Jason was left off of the World team in 2014 despite his silver medal, but the US only had two spots so he was next in line, so to speak. The rule had always been that only the first place finisher is guaranteed a spot (no longer true) but it was only applied when someone who was a clear medal-contender would have been left off (Kimmie Meissner and, though it didn't have to do with her placement, Michelle). Having a good "body of work" (no one here had more than a good BOW) doesn't mean someone can realistically compete for medals.

 

[Rafter]

Interesting that the USFSA is willing to elevate Rippon and not Ashley Wagner.

 

[misskarne]

Just to lighten up the mood, if two skaters tie in body of work, does it make it a bow tie?

Is it a sparkly bow tie?

 

[jlai]

Is it a sparkly bow tie?

Given this is men's, it has to be a Dick Buttonish sort of bow tie.

 

[Cheylana]

Been mostly lurking these days, but just adding my two cents.

If there were no Olympic team event, I feel like Ross absolutely should go - no need to pass over him for someone who is really not favored to bring home hardware in the individual event (even though I do respect Adam’s abilities and adorrrrrre Jason). However, since an Olympic team medal is on the line, I can understand why USFS would want the right mix of athletes in Korea to maximize their chances. I don’t really love it, but I get it. That reality makes me feel almost annoyed the Olympic team event was instituted.

That said, some of my favorite US Nationals moments have featured less celebrated skaters getting into the top three - Matt Savoie and Parchem/Hinzmann come to mind, and seeing it play out live felt almost magical. I find myself wondering if those folks might have been bumped using the modern BOW criteria.

 

[Bellanca]

Interesting that the USFSA is willing to elevate Rippon and not Ashley Wagner.

Ashley has already been elevated, it is now Adam's turn. Posters may not want to hear this, but it is true.

 

[giselle23]

Let's look at the clearest Body of Work case: the three top US dance couples. Given their impressive records domestically and internationally, is there any way (absent injuries) that you'd have a Pogrebinsky/Benoit on the Olympic team even if they'd managed 3rd instead of 4th? Any rational reason to tell H/D, C/B or S/S that they're not on the team, even if they finished 4th? Didn't we still have a great group of dancers below the top 3 -- and didn't each of them know that it would be extraordinarily unlikely that any but these three couples would be named to the Olympic team? And still, they competed and did very well. They didn't consider the competition wasted, and neither did I.

Body of work makes sense. Skaters are erratic, but patterns are patterns. Ross had one great competition when nothing much was expected of him. He had a lot of chances and repeatedly didn't make a lot of them. Even if Nationals has more weight than any of the other competitions, one 2nd place finish at Nationals with a whole bunch of meh results at other competitions doesn't much weigh in his favor.

I think ice dance is a bad example. Without the difficult jumps, ice dance is the one discipline that is fairly predictable. With singles, it is a lot less so. It is not unheard of for a singles skater to have the "skate of her life" at the Olympics and defy all predictions--hello, Adelina and to a slightly lesser extent, Sarah Hughes. There have been surprise medalists who over-achieve at the big event among the men, too--Denis Ten and Paul Wylie are two who come to mind. I think the weight should go to the standings at Nationals. If someone can't perform at this big event, why should we expect them to do so at the even bigger event? And even if they can, are they really medal contenders? I can't even think of a past situation where not going with the top 2 or 3 who were eligible would have been a better choice--except in the case of a skater missing Nationals because of injury and being a gold medal contender (Nancy Kerrigan, Michelle Kwan).

 

[Seerek]

That said, some of my favorite US Nationals moments have featured less celebrated skaters getting into the top three - Matt Savoie and Parchem/Hinzmann come to mind, and seeing it play out live felt almost magical. I find myself wondering if those folks might have been bumped using the modern BOW criteria.

Both would have likely been okay for Olympics using BOW.

The only person who could have arguably bumped Matt was Tim Goebel, but he was only 7th at Nationals.

Marcy/Aaron actually had a better Grand Prix result over Orscher/Lucash that season, so I think they wouldn't have been bumped either.

 

[jlai]

just to make things complicated, for quite a few years, skaters who skated lights out at nationals in January tend to have a less stellar comp in February (4cc).
so I do get nationals not being an indicator thing of the now Feb competition which is the Olympics.

Think K Chen who skated lights off, then placed 12th at 4cc, then 4th at worlds again. Or Jeremy Abbott. Or Max who placed second in 2016 then had a so so 4cc only to do well at worlds again. Skaters who end up placing in 4cc ahead of their US rivals who beat them at nationals.

I wish they would take their time on the world selection announcement though...with the peak and valley thing skaters go through, who knows who is peaking in March.

 

[Cheylana]

Both would have likely been okay for Olympics using BOW.

The only person who could have arguably bumped Matt was Tim Goebel, but he was only 7th at Nationals.

You don’t think Mike Weiss could have bumped Matt?