Papadakis/Cizeron #9 - People Will See Them And Cry

[Aussie Willy]

I got more a message about human connection than love. It is poetry which tells a story.

I know people bang on about how judges only like the old boring stuff, well the judges I know will love this.

Also while not ice dance, one of the judging criteria that is in Theatre on Ice is "Creation of the Universe". P&C have certainly done this with this FD.

Also back in T&D's days, there were people who probably went "Oh no you cannot skate to Bolero". It was pushing boundaries and challenged everyone. This is the same.

 

[aftershocks]

i don't think people's critiques of p/c's fd has to do with misunderstanding the intent or impact of what they are trying to do as artists within this sport. i think this spoken word piece is boring and cloying in regard to its message about love. i wish they had chosen another. some of the movement is also too much like what we've seen ad nauseum in contemporary dance competition the last several years. maybe these movements are new to skating, but its too bad they didn't choose a contemporary/modern dance choreographer with better chops than that sam bozo.

It depends on each individual critique about P/C, of course. As usual, to each their own. A person can only see what he/she sees, is able to see, or chooses to see, no matter what path that person happens to be on in any given lifetime.

The spoken word piece ends up being an age-old story about two young lovers finding each other again in yet another lifetime, but in the beginning, it could be about anything under the sun (death, life, depression, courage, self-doubt, walking through a doorway, going on a conflicting journey, saying goodbye to a friend, taking a shower, examining raindrops on a leaf, making a momentous decision, writing poetry, etc). Like the poet said, "You can make yourself believe almost anything, if you think about it long enough..."

P/C used excerpts, as usually occurs when a choice of music, whether instrumental or with lyrics or in this case, with spoken word, is used and must be cut to fit a skating performance.

 

[aftershocks]

I don't feel it's about love. Rather, I feel it's about missing the "idea" of love, and looking back and filling it in where it may or may not have been. It's wanting and looking for a "connection" as opposed to actually having one.

To me, the program explores this theme, the human desire for connection, to ourselves, to another person, to the world.

The choreography constantly has them reaching for something, and then just not quiet having it in grasp. There's how they move to get to the ending pose. The choreography reflects how we look back on our memories, and how we tend to "force" our memories into a place that has meaning to us currently.

ITA with your impressions of how P/C are using Forest Blakk's poetry. The spoken word piece is a particular expressive work, which can be interpreted in any number of different ways. How P/C use it and interpret the words and music is unique to their creative vision and competitive motivations, as should be obvious, but apparently isn't to everyone.

 

[deegee]

I don't feel it's about love. Rather, I feel it's about missing the "idea" of love, and looking back and filling it in where it may or may not have been. It's wanting and looking for a "connection" as opposed to actually having one.

To me, the program explores this theme, the human desire for connection, to ourselves, to another person, to the world.

The choreography constantly has them reaching for something, and then just not quiet having it in grasp. There's how they move to get to the ending pose. The choreography reflects how we look back on our memories, and how we tend to "force" our memories into a place that has meaning to us currently.

i'm not convinced by your interpretation ahahaha. anyhow, there are parts that i really like and that i hope they will expand as the season unfolds. i hold out some hope.

 

[bcash]

I got more a message about human connection than love. It is poetry which tells a story.

I know people bang on about how judges only like the old boring stuff, well the judges I know will love this.

Also while not ice dance, one of the judging criteria that is in Theatre on Ice is "Creation of the Universe". P&C have certainly done this with this FD.

Also back in T&D's days, there were people who probably went "Oh no you cannot skate to Bolero". It was pushing boundaries and challenged everyone. This is the same.

And I'm still of that opinion hehehe. The ultimate undance-able music. All the dance creations set to that music so far have been empty and lifeless. T/D's version was one of the better ones, but still very Zzzzz to me.

 

[bcash]

Haha I checked her insta, he also commented 'Find me', that's cute. And Elena Ilinykh is apparently a fan of her FD also :

I seem to remember her saying appreciative things before about G/G. Did they ever compete together?

 

[aftershocks]

And I'm still of that opinion hehehe. The ultimate undance-able music. All the dance creations set to that music so far have been empty and lifeless. T/D's version was one of the better ones, but still very Zzzzz to me.

You may have found the program overall tedious and boring because of the particular musical theme that btw steadily builds. But empty and lifeless? Chris Dean's Bolero is neither of those descriptors. But once again, to each their own ability to perceive what they perceive.

ETA:
I am in agreement that Bolero can seem tedious due to the recurring refrain and that it's definitely not an easy piece of music to perform to, nor to choreograph a skating program to. Those who have tried have had mixed results. I did not enjoy Savchenko/Szolkowy's Latin-flavored Bolero. It was a mis-hit. Michelle Kwan's version, choreographed by Dean was a brave attempt, but ultimately unsuccessful. I don't think Kwan even kept some of the choreo throughout the season. It was one of those situations where the choreographer didn't recognize what he had initially created.

Some other attempts have been so-so. While Bolero would not be on the list of my favorite pieces of music, there is something compelling about the way the music builds. Again, 'empty and lifeless' are simply not in the ballpark as accurate descriptors of Dean's work, though you possibly could describe certain skaters' performance approaches to the music in such terms, I suppose. The thing is, do you sign off immediately because of the music or because of the performances, or both?

In any case, Chris Dean's interpretation and his legendary performance with Jayne Torvill is genius. It pushed the boundaries of ice dance, and has had a lasting impact on the discipline and on figure skating.

 

[Aussie Willy]

And I'm still of that opinion hehehe. The ultimate undance-able music. All the dance creations set to that music so far have been empty and lifeless. T/D's version was one of the better ones, but still very Zzzzz to me.

Well we obviously see the same thing very differently. But that is what makes it interesting. As long as we respect those differences.

 

[aftershocks]

Wrong thread

 

[bcash]

You may have found the program overall tedious and boring because of the particular musical theme that btw steadily builds. But empty and lifeless? Chris Dean's Bolero is neither of those descriptors. But once again, to each their own ability to perceive what they perceive.

ETA:
I am in agreement that Bolero can seem tedious due to the recurring refrain and that it's definitely not an easy piece of music to perform to, nor to choreograph a skating program to. Those who have tried have had mixed results. I did not enjoy Savchenko/Szolkowy's Latin-flavored Bolero. It was a mis-hit. Michelle Kwan's version, choreographed by Dean was a brave attempt, but ultimately unsuccessful. I don't think Kwan even kept some of the choreo throughout the season. It was one of those situations where the choreographer didn't recognize what he had initially created.

Some other attempts have been so-so. While Bolero would not be on the list of my favorite pieces of music, there is something compelling about the way the music builds. Again, 'empty and lifeless' are simply not in the ballpark as accurate descriptors of Dean's work, though you possibly could describe certain skaters' performance approaches to the music in such terms, I suppose. The thing is, do you sign off immediately because of the music or because of the performances, or both?

In any case, Chris Dean's interpretation and his legendary performance with Jayne Torvill is genius. It pushed the boundaries of ice dance, and has had a lasting impact on the discipline and on figure skating.

Oh I enjoy listening to Bolero, and there have been multiple great interpretations from leading orchestras and conductors. Yet none of the dance creations I've seen match up /give physical-spatial expression to the fervent energy inherent in the score or unlock anything new in the music with imagination. In skating, the Kwan version was basically a throw-away. Plushenko's version was a lot of silly posturing (reminds me of the Bejart creation for the stage), Kostner's version was better with her beautiful glide both anchoring and counteracting the "repetitions", but still seemed tame and meek in the end. Tarasova/Morozov...not any different.

In Ice Dance the result might have proved less "bad" due to the absence of the need for "setting up" elements (which wastes big chunks of music). The T/D version just didn't have enough movement. They skated slow the entire program and all the little partnering intricacies couldn't make up for the lack of movement which accentuated the "tedium" in the music when really I feel you need to open it up. But I know ice dance was less "athletic" back then and skating "elegantly" was probably deemed the appropriate approach.

 

[Miloune]

I seem to remember her saying appreciative things before about G/G. Did they ever compete together?

In 2013-2014 she was with Katsalapov and P/C were in their first senior year. So they competed but were not at the same level hahaha.

The year after she was with Zhiganshin and I think the season wasn't so bad for them (before they collapsed). So yeah they competed briefly together.

 

[aftershocks]

Oh I enjoy listening to Bolero, and there have been multiple great interpretations from leading orchestras and conductors. Yet none of the dance creations I've seen match up /give physical-spatial expression to the fervent energy inherent in the score or unlock anything new in the music with imagination. In skating, the Kwan version was basically a throw-away. Plushenko's version was a lot of silly posturing (reminds me of the Bejart creation for the stage), Kostner's version was better with her beautiful glide both anchoring and counteracting the "repetitions", but still seemed tame and meek in the end. Tarasova/Morozov...not any different.

In Ice Dance the result might have proved less "bad" due to the absence of the need for "setting up" elements (which wastes big chunks of music). The T/D version just didn't have enough movement. They skated slow the entire program and all the little partnering intricacies couldn't make up for the lack of movement which accentuated the "tedium" in the music when really I feel you need to open it up. But I know ice dance was less "athletic" back then and skating "elegantly" was probably deemed the appropriate approach.

While T/D's Bolero program is not my fave ever ice dance performance, it is groundbreaking and memorable. So it appears you understand music and thus you don't find the refrain monotonous or problematic after all. You instead seem to argue that neither dance choreo nor skating choreo has lived up to the music. That's probably because it's not an easy piece to choreograph, or dance to, or skate to on the ice. And perhaps the music is best listened to without any bodies trying to interpret it in any form or venue. At least, I feel that Dean's interpretation forced audiences to pay attention to how the music builds. You may not have found what Dean created effective in that way, but I did. It was experimentation and it broke new ground. Dean has always been inventive, whether or not everyone is able to appreciate his unique and unexpected approaches. Once again, I didn't see empty and lifeless in what Dean created.

The music was composed for ballet/dance, and there's a difference obviously between the way dancers are able to move on the dance floor and the way skaters are able to move over the ice. Dean apparently did not think the music called for being 'opened up.' Perhaps he wanted us to pay attention to the repetitiveness, and then to be surprised by the unexpected movements in his partnering of Jayne. Jayne was always so willing and fearless in the way she trusted Dean to do crazy, impossibly awkward, unexpectedly cool, and very difficult things with her body.

 

[cocotaffy]

Interesting view point about P/C taken from this interesting interview with Douglas Webster on ice-dance.com (thanks to @clairecloutier for mentioning it in the Ice dance thread btw)
"You have seen many changes in ice dancing over the years. What do you like the best and the least?
The best is the seamless interaction and use of the full body. I teach a class for US Dance Camp and our own IDI clinics called Skate 360. The class is about how to use (and discover) the full body while skating in a 360 sphere of energy…using all different levels and planes of motion. This is currently happening, and I see it in all parts of figure skating, singles, pairs, etc. To me, the dance of skating is the full use of the body while staying in the push. Gabriella [Papadakis] & Guillaume [Cizeron], the French World Champions, totally get it.
The other thing they get is the loss of the self in their skating. Their expression is inherent in the skating and the dance…not forced. Expression comes through the whole body…not just the face. This is a big step away from ballroom and pushes skating into a deep artful place…the loss of ego in the dance. Doing that in competitive skating gets big bonus points."

I particularly agree with the expression coming through the whole body, not just the face. This is their major strength especially Guillaume who actually relies nearly solely on his body whereas Gaby is better able to do both.

 

[sadya]

After many years, I couldn't stand anyone skating to bolero anymore. Even though T/D did an amazing job and I really enjoyed the interpretation of Scott Williams, it seemed boring when another skater again chose this music. Until Kostner skated to this in 2013. Her interpretation was the reason I watched until the end and rewatched again. Because of the way she skated to it, notes which didn't come to my attention anymore became new again. I appreciated the music again. A great skater will actually make you enjoy any piece of music (again).

Back to people skating to poetry, has Robin Cousins been mentioned? That was amazing. I actually forgot that there was no music. Same happened during this new FD of Papadakis and Cizeron. And I love their RD. That music has been on my phone for a year! I was reliving some of the music from my childhood. Great choices.

 

[clairecloutier]

Interesting view point about P/C taken from this interesting interview with Douglas Webster on ice-dance.com (thanks to @clairecloutier for mentioning it in the Ice dance thread btw)
"You have seen many changes in ice dancing over the years. What do you like the best and the least?
The best is the seamless interaction and use of the full body. I teach a class for US Dance Camp and our own IDI clinics called Skate 360. The class is about how to use (and discover) the full body while skating in a 360 sphere of energy…using all different levels and planes of motion. This is currently happening, and I see it in all parts of figure skating, singles, pairs, etc. To me, the dance of skating is the full use of the body while staying in the push. Gabriella [Papadakis] & Guillaume [Cizeron], the French World Champions, totally get it.
The other thing they get is the loss of the self in their skating. Their expression is inherent in the skating and the dance…not forced. Expression comes through the whole body…not just the face. This is a big step away from ballroom and pushes skating into a deep artful place…the loss of ego in the dance. Doing that in competitive skating gets big bonus points."
I particularly agree with the expression coming through the whole body, not just the face. This is their major strength especially Guillaume who actually relies nearly solely on his body whereas Gaby is better able to do both.

@cocotaffy I agree this was an excellent point from Doug about P/C--that their expression really comes from the whole body. I also agree with him that it represents a big departure from traditional ballroom style.

 

[skatesindreams]

In T&D's days, there were people who probably went "Oh no you cannot skate to Bolero". It was pushing boundaries and challenged everyone. This is the same.

They are "transforming" ice dancing, just as T and D did.

 

[thvu]

i'm not convinced by your interpretation ahahaha. anyhow, there are parts that i really like and that i hope they will expand as the season unfolds. i hold out some hope.

No worries. It's art, it's subjective. I'm of the mind that art is personal, and so interpretations are as well.

I just love that we are actually discussing Ice Dance as an art now, and that we are even experiencing it as such. (And also, I'm so thankful we have P&C, because there's alot of "bad" art out there!)

 

[deegee]

No worries. It's art, it's subjective. I'm of the mind that art is personal, and so interpretations are as well.

I just love that we are actually discussing Ice Dance as an art now, and that we are even experiencing it as such. (And also, I'm so thankful we have P&C, because there's alot of "bad" art out there!)

absolutely!

 

[cocotaffy]

I love this drawing which was shared by Gaby on her story. Very modern and sleek, fits them perfectly.

 

[Isabelle.G]

Nice photos by Olivier Brajon.
This one is amazing although the one here is hard to beat.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I hate being talked at during skating, but somehow they make it worth it

 

[cocotaffy]

I hate being talked at during skating, but somehow they make it worth it

Ahah I know, I do not like it either so when they announced the slam poem idea, I got worried it would be really cringy but they indeed made it work. I also understand how one could find the lyrics cloying but again somehow they made it work through their movements quality and interpretation which for me is not about love but indeed looking for connection like @thvudragon interpreted. If it was to be about love then the story make me think of the Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind. But even that movie is more than just a love story but more the deep connection of two souls. Olafur Arnalds music helps to create some kind of tension and release especially in the second part of the program which brings texture to the text. A really well thought out concept beautifully served as always by their body movements and full commitment to the concept.

 

[Tila]

Guillaume Cizeron's interview for Passion-Patinage after the competition :
http://www.passion-patinage.com/2019...s-de-la-danse/

ADMIN EDIT: do not repost entire articles

 

[deegee]

Ahah I know, I do not like it either so when they announced the slam poem idea, I got worried it would be really cringy but they indeed made it work. I also understand how one could find the lyrics cloying but again somehow they made it work through their movements quality and interpretation which for me is not about love but indeed looking for connection like @thvudragon interpreted. If it was to be about love then the story make me think of the Eternal sunshine of the spotless mind. But even that movie is more than just a love story but more the deep connection of two souls. Olafur Arnalds music helps to create some kind of tension and release especially in the second part of the program which brings texture to the text. A really well thought out concept beautifully served as always by their body movements and full commitment to the concept.

but even if it is about "connection" outside of romantic love, the poem can be cloying. "cloying" does not only refer to feelings regarding romantic love. i find the poem itself to be annoyingly cloying. but as i watch the video more, i'm able to sort of tune out the poem and just appreciate the movement. again, there are movements that are too much like the competitive style contemporary dance that we are fed ad nauseum in american tv. i hope they develop those parts more to move away from that overly-used-as-to-be-trite style. they are capable of much better interpretation.

i wish they were just using the music without the words, frankly.

 

[Orm Irian]

Thank you for posting that interview, Tila!

avec Gabriella on ne se regarde pas du tout pendant la première minute et demie du programme, pour finalement se regarder sur les paroles ‘Here we are’, mais j’aimerai que ça ressorte encore plus. »

This is a detail that I hadn't picked up on - that they don't even look at each other for the first minute and a half of the program, don't meet eyes until the words 'Here we are' are spoken - but I love that they're approaching this program with that much precision and attention to detail. If they're able to highlight moments like that in the way Guillaume says he wants to, it will really help to build the program.

And it's a moment that would be decontextualised and pretty much meaningless without the spoken word element, which just goes to show how integral the poem is to the structure of the program.

ETA: Also, I hope the hint about pastels rather than fluro in the RD costumes is correct and not just Guillaume playing games with us! The 80s wasn't all fluro and cheap tat, after all*...

*I was there, I remember, even if the fashion was dire.

 

[cholla]

Clownish Gaby ? No, never.

 

[deegee]

Thank you for posting that interview, Tila!



This is a detail that I hadn't picked up on - that they don't even look at each other for the first minute and a half of the program, don't meet eyes until the words 'Here we are' are spoken - but I love that they're approaching this program with that much precision and attention to detail. If they're able to highlight moments like that in the way Guillaume says he wants to, it will really help to build the program.

And it's a moment that would be decontextualised and pretty much meaningless without the spoken word element, which just goes to show how integral the poem is to the structure of the program.

ok.

it still doesn't make the poem any good ahahahaha

 

[cocotaffy]

but even if it is about "connection" outside of romantic love, the poem can be cloying. "cloying" does not only refer to feelings regarding romantic love. i find the poem itself to be annoyingly cloying. but as i watch the video more, i'm able to sort of tune out the poem and just appreciate the movement. again, there are movements that are too much like the competitive style contemporary dance that we are fed ad nauseum in american tv. i hope they develop those parts more to move away from that overly-used-as-to-be-trite style. they are capable of much better interpretation.

i wish they were just using the music without the words, frankly.

Had they not used words, I feel it would have been too close stylistically to what they have done before and certainly less challenging. Now they need to make us forget while enhancing those cloying words, not an easy task.
Anyway, in the interview posted above, Guillaume mentions they still have lots to do with one particular exemple at the end: "During the first minute and a half of the program Gabriella and I don't look at each other till the words "Here we are" where we finally do, but I want it to be even more striking."
Also about the RD, he reveals a bit about the costumes stating they'll stay away from fluo which is the right call if they want to respect the style of the period. In Fame, they weren't wearing any fluo clothing but rather pastels tones with lots of layering and most importantly leg warmers. Guillaume could dress like Leroy one of the main character whose trademark clothing was a short with a tank top even see through at times, right up Guillaume's alley Also have you all seen this ? (thanks to @MarieM for pointing it out) See short shorts indeed and not one fluo item of clothing in sight

 

[Miloune]

Guillaume Cizeron's interview for Passion-Patinage after the competition :
http://www.passion-patinage.com/2019...s-de-la-danse/

Guillaume says they almost did Starmania! It was on my wishlist! But they couldn't find a song where the finnstep rhythm would fit. Too bad. I guess it'll be for another time! Thankfully I love Fame!

 

[cocotaffy]

The 4K HD youtube video of their Tango from On ice perspective. He did post it on Instagram some weeks ago but you can now see Gaby and Guillaume in all their glory on your full screen.