Papadakis CIzeron #4 - Happiness Does Not Wait

[Rady AM]

Thanks for the links !

 

[arakwafan2006]

That's exactly it, they were the winners, despite not winning the title and I expect VM will be starting to realise it too!
I would put money on Gabi and Gui winning the OGM, they are taking Ice dance to a new level, something VM might well have underestimated when they planned their return!

He coast is NOT clear for Tessa and Scott

 

[lauravvv]

That's exactly it, they were the winners, despite not winning the title and I expect VM will be starting to realise it too!

They definitely were the winners in the sense that they performed their absolutely best in the FD, and had one of their best performances, if not the best, in the SD even despite the twizzle mistake, whereas V/M had already reached their Worlds level of performance in SD at the GP Final (apart from the level 4 in the partial step sequence), and did not have their best FD performance of the season. But, technically, both teams are winners, as one of them won the SD, and the other won the FD.

I would put money on Gabi and Gui winning the OGM, they are taking Ice dance to a new level, something VM might well have underestimated when they planned their return!

Although I am a Virtue/Moir fan, I would be more than okay with Gabriella and Guillaume winning the Olympic gold if they had the best programs and the best performances of the competition. But we don't know yet what programs both teams will have and how they will perform at Olympics. According to interviews, P/C intend to do something safer (even if they did not use the exact word), more in vein of their previous FDs for the Olympic season, but V/M want to do something different than before, even if not too different. If V/M will take a risk with something new and different, it can either hurt them a bit compared to P/C, or give them an advantage if judges will like what they do.

Also, what happened at Worlds with Scott was most likely a simple accident which could have happened to P/C as well (in the form of some other mistake, if not as a stumble), not so much nerves or something else. And they would have won also the FD if that stumble had not happened. With that I just want to say that we don't know what will happen at a particular competition, and there is no real basis for being sure about anything.

 

[thvu]

According to interviews, P/C intend to do something safer (even if they did not use the exact word), more in vain of their previous FDs for the Olympic season, but V/M want to do something different than before, even if not too different. If V/M will take a risk with something new and different, it can either hurt them a bit compared to P/C, or give them an advantage if judges will like what they do.

Don't expect anything too "new and different" out of team Montreal. They best they could give V&M for the FD was their B-side material. We'll see of course, but I'm expecting something more like Latch *shudder* than something like Carmen.

 

[debo]

Also, what happened at Worlds with Scott was most likely a simple accident which could have happened to P/C as well (in the form of some other mistake, if not as a stumble), not so much nerves or something else. And they would have won also the FD if that stumble had not happened. With that I just want to say that we don't know what will happen at a particular competition, and there is no real basis for being sure about anything.

How do you conclude V/M would have won the FD if Scott had not stumbled?

 

[lauravvv]

How do you conclude V/M would have won the FD if Scott had not stumbled?

Well, maybe I am wrong, but, if the technical panel counted the stumble as having happened still on the step sequence, then it means they would have gotten level 4 for it without the stumble. That's 1.5 points + at least 2 more points in GOE (looking at what they were normally getting for that step sequence before Worlds). Possibly also the PCS would have been slightly higher than it was. That's 116.19 + 3.5 points = 119.69 points + possibly just a little bit in PCS. It's only some tenths of a point more than what P/C got, but still more. As I said, perhaps I am wrong and V/M would not have gotten level 4 for their step sequence also without the stumble. I should have said "probably they would have won also the FD". Still, it's very likely.

 

[aftershocks]

Also, what happened at Worlds with Scott was most likely a simple accident which could have happened to P/C as well

Ice is slippery and bobbles, miscues, slips, falls can happen to anyone at any time. That's why what skaters do on the ice is so absolutely amazing. That's why D/W winning everything for two years straight is incredible, along with the body of work they put together.

But please, let's not wish or imagine mistakes or 'simple accidents' on anyone! P/C are not the best with the twizzles, but clearly they did not falter badly enough to have a poor score in the SD. In V/M's FD, Scott had a slight mistake on the twizzles which he got back on track quickly, but it was very obvious. And then the fall after footwork. Okay, he got back up quickly. But it truly destroyed the overall mood and performance. Plus, V/M's FD is not that wonderful. V/M are great ice dancers, but their FD is not a work of art, nor the best overall FD this season. It's far down the list in terms of best FDs this season. What made it okay is how hard V/M worked and the fact that they are great ice dancers. I don't find their FD that interesting and it doesn't pull me in to want to watch it again in the way that I want to watch other FDs from this season.

Indeed, it will be interesting to see what all skaters choose for the Olympic season. As far as this season, I do wish that G&G had chosen hip hop, which granted was a risk. It seems to me that the coaching team made the choice to not have both V/M and G&G do hip hop this season, especially since H/D were going with hip hop too. One of the excuses is that Gaby doesn't take to hip hop, or that she doesn't like that style and she preferred swing/blues. Guillaume did not seem to prefer the swing and it took him some time to try and get comfortable with it. And furthermore: If Kaitlyn Weaver and Andrew Poje could do hip hop, so could Gaby Papadakis! And we know Guillaume coulda ripped it! I mean go ahead and take the plunge. It would have been fun. I'm certain that Gaby would have been able to keep up with Guillaume. However, since they chose not to do hip hop, it would be nice if they would try it on for an exhibition. I mean definitely after all the hip hop classes GCiz took and the posted teaser clips, I'm feeling robbed. Come on G&G, give us a taste of your hip hop 'tude on ice for an exhibition.

 

[maya1985]

Well, maybe I am wrong, but, if the technical panel counted the stumble as having happened still on the step sequence, then it means they would have gotten level 4 for it without the stumble. That's 1.5 points + at least 2 more points in GOE (looking at what they were normally getting for that step sequence before Worlds). Possibly also the PCS would have been slightly higher than it was. That's 116.19 + 3.5 points = 119.69 points + possibly just a little bit in PCS. It's only some tenths of a point more than what P/C got, but still more. As I said, perhaps I am wrong and V/M would not have gotten level 4 for their step sequence also without the stumble. I should have said "probably they would have won also the FD". Still, it's very likely.

The result would have been embarrassing... The P/C's free was exceptional.

 

[cocotaffy]

http://www.eurosport.fr/patinage-art...47/story.shtml
Eurosport France is organizing a Facebook live session where fans can ask questions to Gaby and Guillaume. It will be at 17.00 (5.00 PM French time).

 

[maya1985]

http://www.lequipe.fr/Patinage-arti...la-papadakis-le-programme-de-notre-vie/790749 It's not free but the title says a lot of things: "the program of our life"

 

[cocotaffy]

http://www.leparisien.fr/sports/on-est-comme-un-vieux-couple-04-04-2017-6824232.php
I'm not gonna translate everything because part of it is not new. But some answers are interesting esp. about their FD conception, V/M and partnership.

Do you design your choreographies thinking of the judges ?
Gaby: We try to create elements which can please a maximum of people. We shouldn't do elitist choreographies.
Guillaume: We have to be able to renew our style while keeping our interest at heart, finding things which please us but will also seduce others. It's always a delicate compromise between our inspirations and what can be competitive.

It's like diplomacy...
Gaby: A little yes. This year, our idea was much more extreme in terms of novelty and originality. Our coaches and the federation told us: "be careful, don't go too far, nobody will understand, you still have to win medals ! " At the beginning we were a bit frustrated but now that we see how much we touched people ...
Guillaume: We kept the essence of what we wanted. This program was mediocre if skated at 99%. At 100%, it's extraordinary. Below, it becomes utterly incomprehensible, cold. It's really on a knife's edge.

How are you gonna deal with the rivalry with V/M's ?
Gaby (always a hoot): we're gonna hide in the tiers with binoculars...
Guillaume: It's more a fight with oneself. We know we can beat them but we need to be at 100%. We skate better when we don't pay attention to the competition. The challenge is to honor our art without thinking about anything else. More than medals, creating magic on the ice is what has meaning for us.

What makes your partnership special ?
Guillaume: We're like an old couple, it's as if we've been married for 30 years. We started at 8/9 yrs old and we grew up together even more than with our respective siblings. It's truly a peculiar type of relationship. Those who skate for 4 to 5 years together are friends or colleagues. We share a deep history.
Gaby: A real difference between couples coming together before and after teenage years exists. We grew up together, we learn to skate together, we know each other perfectly. We know how to stand back when we don't agree.
Guillaume: I wonder how couples who can't stand each other manage. The emotions we deliver, it comes from the heart. If we couldn't stand each other, it would be difficult to find that type of truth in our souls.

 

[Rady AM]

Fantastic! Thanks for the translation.

 

[cocotaffy]

Philip Hersh wrote a piece for Icenetwork where he has some lovely words about Gaby and Guillaume's performance:

"Legendary Russian pairs coach Tamara Moskvina likes to cite this proverb: "Some like the preacher, some like the preacher's wife, and some like the preacher's daughter."
The meaning behind that proverb, that taste is individual, always seems best applied to ice dance.
So it was in Helsinki, where the power and passion of Canadians Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir barely prevailed over the refinement and subtlety of France's Gabriella Papadakis and Guillaume Cizeron.
Minor flaws in the French team's short dance dug them a hole too deep to climb out of despite a winning free dance of truthfully Ode-on-a-Grecian-Urn beauty.
Yes, I understand and appreciate the technically based judging system has given dance some sporting chops instead of it being viewed as more of an entertaining sideshow. In my mind, though, Papadakis and Cizeron deserved even bigger scores for having unmatched, riveting and utterly breathtaking qualities in the free dance.
With no jumps, dance has a bigger entertainment aspect than any of the sport's other disciplines. Shouldn't there have been a goosebumps bonus for the final 90 seconds of the French couple's free dance? "

I like the idea of a goosebump PCS, fans are already going crazy about politicking and backdoors conspiracy, this could take it to another level

 

[maya1985]

Gabriella and Guillaume will not skate at World Team trophy.
https://ffsg.org/evenement/isu-world-team-trophy-tokyo-jap/
I would have liked to see their programs again but it is better for them, they will be able to rest a bit before resuming training for the Olympic season

 

[Miloune]

Philip Hersh wrote a piece for Icenetwork where he has some lovely words about Gaby and Guillaume's performance:

"Legendary Russian pairs coach Tamara Moskvina likes to cite this proverb: "Some like the preacher, some like the preacher's wife, and some like the preacher's daughter."
The meaning behind that proverb, that taste is individual, always seems best applied to ice dance.
So it was in Helsinki, where the power and passion of Canadians Tessa Virtue and Scott Moir barely prevailed over the refinement and subtlety of France's Gabriella Papadakis and Guillaume Cizeron.
Minor flaws in the French team's short dance dug them a hole too deep to climb out of despite a winning free dance of truthfully Ode-on-a-Grecian-Urn beauty.
Yes, I understand and appreciate the technically based judging system has given dance some sporting chops instead of it being viewed as more of an entertaining sideshow. In my mind, though, Papadakis and Cizeron deserved even bigger scores for having unmatched, riveting and utterly breathtaking qualities in the free dance.
With no jumps, dance has a bigger entertainment aspect than any of the sport's other disciplines. Shouldn't there have been a goosebumps bonus for the final 90 seconds of the French couple's free dance? "

I like the idea of a goosebump PCS, fans are already going crazy about politicking and backdoors conspiracy, this could take it to another level

Well it seems a lot of people think 5+ pts was an "undeserved" gap haha... Especially when P/C had a free skate like this, it's just a pity that nothing would have been good enough to take over VM. IMO there's a bigger difference in quality betwwen the two FDs than between the two SDs.. BUT like he said, PC technical errors were more costly.
Oh well, I guess this competition is a sign that the skating gods want to keep us on the edge of our seats until the olympics!!
Let it be a lesson for PC : work on those damn step sequences!!!!!

 

[maya1985]

Let it be a lesson for PC : work on those damn step sequences!!!!!

They should know why they were not level 4. In l'Equipe (today), Guillaume said: "We know that we were not perfect, and that we could have done better ... we also know that sometimes between a level 3 or 4, there is a certain subjectivity"

 

[Miloune]

They should know why they were not level 4. In l'Equipe (today), Guillaume said: "We know that we were not perfect, and that we could have done better ... we also know that sometimes between a level 3 or 4, there is a certain subjectivity"

Yes sometimes it depends on how the rule is interpreted by the tech panel... This "grey" zone is absurd imo because how can you work on your levels if you don't know what will cost you?

 

[debo]

J

Well it seems a lot of people think 5+ pts was an "undeserved" gap haha... Especially when P/C had a free skate like this, it's just a pity that nothing would have been good enough to take over VM. IMO there's a bigger difference in quality betwwen the two FDs than between the two SDs.. BUT like he said, PC technical errors were more costly.
Oh well, I guess this competition is a sign that the skating gods want to keep us on the edge of our seats until the olympics!!
Let it be a lesson for PC : work on those damn step sequences!!!!!

I'm sure they will. . But let the judges work hard as well. An element given a GOE from -2 to +3 by 9 judges at the same event is unacceptable, unfair to the skaters and fans, as well. If this happened at the Olympics next year, whoa....the ice dance competition will be more popular than ever.

 

[Miloune]

J


I'm sure they will. . But let the judges work hard as well. An element given a GOE from -2 to +3 by 9 judges at the same event is unacceptable, unfair to the skaters and fans, as well. If this happened at the Olympics next year, whoa....the ice dance competition will be more popular than ever.

Yes I mean do we know if the level 3 VM got for that step sequence was a consequence of the stumble? I thought it wasn't because a lot of people insisted that his stumble wasn't a part of the element. BUT with judges giving from -2 to +3 you have to wonder. I hope it will result in a discussion among the judges about their judging system... lol

 

[MsZem]

Philip Hersh wrote a piece for Icenetwork where he has some lovely words about Gaby and Guillaume's performance

And they don't even have a quad!

Hersh has said before he doesn't really get ice dance, and it speaks to P/C's exceptional abilities as skaters and performers that they were able to make such an impression.

 

[maya1985]

For the frenchies out there or people speaking french you can listen to the radio program mentioned above here, it starts at 42m19s
http://www.rtl.fr/actu/societe-faits-divers/rtl-grand-soir-du-03-avril-2017-7787938956

here, the video : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obco1OvH1NI

 

[debo]

Yes I mean do we know if the level 3 VM got for that step sequence was a consequence of the stumble? I thought it wasn't because a lot of people insisted that his stumble wasn't a part of the element. BUT with judges giving from -2 to +3 you have to wonder. I hope it will result in a discussion among the judges about their judging system... lol

In the old days they used to have a judges' conference after the event. Maybe they still do, they need one. Clearly different judges saw the same element differently, and that's with replay.

 

[maya1985]

Gabi and Guillaume were in live on Eurosport's facebook. The replay:
https://www.facebook.com/EurosportFR/videos/vb.1433845536866876/1861717487413010/?type=2&theater

 

[cocotaffy]

Gabriella and Guillaume will not skate at World Team trophy.
https://ffsg.org/evenement/isu-world-team-trophy-tokyo-jap/
I would have liked to see their programs again but it is better for them, they will be able to rest a bit before resuming training for the Olympic season

I'm thrilled by this news, it shows they understand this season mistake of starting the season way to late and unprepared. They paid it dearly, plus Olympic season is shorter so not time for galas and WTT. I hope they'll enlist in an early B-competition outside France to get early feed-back this time around.

ETA: so many P/C related news, it's like christmas. We should enjoy because they'll soon be buried working like crazy till the beginning of the season.

 

[ballettmaus]

Yes sometimes it depends on how the rule is interpreted by the tech panel... This "grey" zone is absurd imo because how can you work on your levels if you don't know what will cost you?

Agreed. There are some things that should be clearly defined without any "grey" areas. Calling the level of an element is one of those things.

 

[Rady AM]

It seems they are having a great time during the press tour in France ! Both have been very active on their Instagram/ Twitter accounts .

https://68.media.tumblr.com/903bf103851533f8a81bd5daf3bb14bf/tumblr_ony7ux1FxF1v91jh5o1_540.jpg

 

[IceIceBaby]

Too bad they won't be at WTT, I would have loved to see their craziness in Kiss&Cry . But I understand the decision. The free dance in Helsinki was the best way possible to end the season, with a new world record and a great skate. I doubt they could have topped that performance in Japan and now they have more time to relax and soon start planning the new programs.

 

[debo]

I thought the ISU required certain skaters to participate in WTT? If that's changed, good. The competition season should end with Worlds, IMO.

 

[cocotaffy]

I get they want to maximize exposure for the sport but those athletes are so tired when Worlds are over. Plus being olympic season and all, they should have cancelled the event altogether as top teams probably want to focus right way on preparing. Basically WTT makes no sense this year.
I wonder, if a world record is set during WTT, does it become the official WR ? It would suck for P/C to get their FD WR beaten by V/M at a competition they're not participating in.

 

[MarieM]

Everyone is forgetting he had stiches up his hand