News and updates à la Française, part quatre

[Andrea82]

What is this competition. I don't think I've seen it before.

A summer local competition in Canada. This year it was from 8 to 11 August. Some not-Canadian IAM teams are usually entered (sometimes they do only the Rhythm Dance) to get early feedbacks from judges.

 

[sus2850]

I now regret buying tickets for Milano.

 

[PRlady]

I don’t. I splurged for dance but expected the most interest in the teams following the top four. This certainly throws a monkey wrench in the rankings.

I feel sorriest for the two existing French teams. I hope but doubt that L/B can continue their upwards trajectory.

 

[cholla]

An interview with Tiffany Zahorski about her new job is available (in English) on Patinage Magazine website.

 

[Wyliefan]

I now regret buying tickets for Milano.

Why? Because one team you don't like will be there? Who cares? Just enjoy the teams you do like.

 

[taz'smum]

I now regret buying tickets for Milano.

Good time to take a toilet break!

 

[Wyliefan]

I feel sorriest for the two existing French teams. I hope but doubt that L/B can continue their upwards trajectory.

L/B will still get to the Olympics. D/N probably never stood a chance in the first place, because I don't expect France will get three spots. The ones I feel sorriest for are Dem/LeM.

 

[PRlady]

Shouldn’t they still get GPs next year based on their standings? Then if BFC and L/B finish well at Worlds next year, France is back to three spots?

 

[kwanfan1818]

When Virtue/Moir came back, which was more than a full season before the Olympics, several teams retired, knowing they would have no chance for the last spot at the Olympics, barring injury of one of the three locks. The ones who stayed got pushed down the hierarchy. The announcement had similar timing during the season, ie, before the upcoming Worlds, one that neutralized Weaver/Poje’s Canada 1 status. (It also set up Moir as dictator for who would be on and off the Team Event, ie not Weaver/Poje.)

This timing is even worse, given that Demougeot/LeMercier had every reason to think that a year away from the Olympics, they had a great chance. Now Lopareva/Brissaud’s France #1 has an asterisk going into Boston, Arribert’s group has been stomped on, and LBF/GC are the new darlings without having set a foot on competitive ice. And the timing is because Sorensen was suspended as a sexual predator earlier this season.

So, while D/LM will get GP’s, their chances for the Olympics or Worlds 2026 are down the drain. They have a four year slog in front of them, instead of having a taste and the experience going into the next quad, unlike the skaters who will likely be central to the next quad, like, Lajoie/Lagha, Carreira/Ponomarenko, the Taschlers, Davis/Smolkin, and Turkkila/Versluis. If LBC/GC decide to stay for another cycle, and if Mouaden/Bigot do turn out to be the second coming of Papadakis/Cizeron, even three spots might not be enough for them to make it to 2030, while their peers have none of the same internal competition, and if they continue skating, will end their careers with multiple Olympics.

 

[PRlady]

When Virtue/Moir came back, which was more than a full season before the Olympics, several teams retired, knowing they would have no chance for the last spot at the Olympics, barring injury of one of the three locks. The ones who stayed got pushed down the hierarchy. The announcement had similar timing during the season, ie, before the upcoming Worlds, one that neutralized Weaver/Poje’s Canada 1 status. (It also set up Moir as dictator for who would be on and off the Team Event, ie not Weaver/Poje.)

This timing is even worse, given that Demougeot/LeMercier had every reason to think that a year away from the Olympics, they had a great chance. Now Lopareva/Brissaud’s France #1 has an asterisk going into Boston, Arribert’s group has been stomped on, and LBF/GC are the new darlings without having set a foot on competitive ice. And the timing is because Sorensen was suspended as a sexual predator earlier this season.

So, while D/LM will get GP’s, their chances for the Olympics or Worlds 2026 are down the drain. They have a four year slog in front of them, instead of having a taste and the experience going into the next quad, unlike the skaters who will likely be central to the next quad, like, Lajoie/Lagha, Carreira/Ponomarenko, the Taschlers, Davis/Smolkin, and Turkkila/Versluis. If LBC/GC decide to stay for another cycle, and if Mouaden/Bigot do turn out to be the second coming of Papadakis/Cizeron, even three spots might not be enough for them to make it to 2030, while their peers have none of the same internal competition, and if they continue skating, will end their careers with multiple Olympics.

Sigh. Do either of them have a Jewish grandmother?

 

[Marta24]

Or how about skating for Monaco? Not that I believe for a second that FFSG will let DLM go, but might be worth a try.

 

[Karen-W]

Or how about skating for Monaco? Not that I believe for a second that FFSG will let DLM go, but might be worth a try.

If DemLeM want to compete in Milano, then any country switch now would have to be to a country 1) that doesn't need them to compete at either Worlds 2025 or the September OQE to earn spots, and 2) where they will be able to obtain citizenship immediately.

Monaco is no better an option than staying with France - and I don't think Monegasque citizenship is that easy to obtain unless they have a family connection already.

#1 is really important because DemLeM would have to sit out a full year from Euros 2025, so they couldn't go to the OQE & earn the spot themselves.

 

[MsZem]

This is not the same situation as V/M, who were a massively successful team with about two decades of partnership behind them when they came back. We don't know yet how well Laurence and Guillaume will mesh, so they are a potentially exciting team but also an unproven one. They're also a bit older than V/M were at the time of their comeback.

In short: we shall see...

 

[overedge]

Interview with Laurence https://www.msn.com/en-ca/sports/ot...nership-after-sorensen-suspension/ar-AA1AfMVa

 

[MacMadame]

This is not the same situation as V/M, who were a massively successful team with about two decades of partnership behind them when they came back. We don't know yet how well Laurence and Guillaume will mesh, so they are a potentially exciting team but also an unproven one. They're also a bit older than V/M were at the time of their comeback.

In short: we shall see...

Yeah, all this anointing of this team as France #1 is premature IMO. Especially as LopBri are really, really good.

Why? Because one team you don't like will be there? Who cares? Just enjoy the teams you do like.

And other sports! When we went to the 2002 Olympics, we saw Freestyle Moguls, Half Pipe, and Hockey and they were great!

 

[kwanfan1818]

Yeah, all this anointing of this team as France #1 is premature IMO. Especially as LopBri are really, really good.

And the new team, unless they are an epic fail, has the FFSG's backing as France #1. That is now, not premature.

What is the same between the V/M and the LFB/GC situation is the that announcement was made before the Worlds in which their countries #1 team's status is devalued at the upcoming Worlds, and, unless the new team has an epic fail, it crushes the teams below them, and that they come in as their country's #1, even if LFB/GC haven't stepped foot on competitive ice before, which V/M did. It doesn't matter where LFB/GC place, as long as they place over L/B and D/LM, which will not happen only if 1. They are an epic fail 2. Or they're a mess, but pull out of events, leaving L/B as the top currently competing team from France, but not really France #1 until they're ready to take their place at Championships. Which I don't think they'll do, if there's a chance they can place behind L/B.

 

[sus2850]

Why? Because one team you don't like will be there? Who cares? Just enjoy the teams you do like.

It is not one team I do not like (i mean „not like“ is way too soft, I had hoped to never have to hear about FB/S in my life again). Mainly it is one team that will cause my favourites to drop one place. Which means: no medal. I am really bitter about that, I waited for so long. And yes, I just wanted to go for ice dance, so I regret that I literally bought a 650 Euro ticket the day before Guillaumes announcement. I hope I can sell the tickets. I was not sure anyhow whether to buy tickets as I usually have press tickets, so I am spoiled with having access to the miced zone and excellent photo positions. Anyhow, to keep it French: I hope Lopareva/Brissaud (who are my second favourite dance team) will have an excellent worlds and will not lose their morivation.

 

[TAHbKA]

If anything the situation is more comparable to James/Radford rather than Virtue/Moir imho.

Am excited to see what Cizeron can do on the ice and am now considering going to Sheffield.

 

[MacMadame]

If anything the situation is more comparable to James/Radford rather than Virtue/Moir imho.

Exactly. And James/Radford ended up being good but also not as good as the hype. (12th at the Olympics, no gold medals at any Fall events, and finally a World Bronze at the championships in the Olympics year with the top five teams from the Olympics not there.)

It's true that Cizeron had results similar to Moir (though for not as long) but F-B's results didn't match James with Cipres. No World medals. Not a 4CCs champion, not a National Champion. James had all that prior to the hookup with Radford.

 

[kosjenka]

Dont we all have bathroom break teams/ladies?

I doubt FB/C will be THAT successful to be honest…

 

[tony]

It's true that Cizeron had results similar to Moir (though for not as long) but F-B's results didn't match James with Cipres. No World medals. Not a 4CCs champion, not a National Champion. James had all that prior to the hookup with Radford.

Cizeron and Papadakis were at the very top of the sport starting in 2015. They were at that level until their 2022 Olympic gold. Virtue and Moir were rising to the top by 2008- their first win being 2010, lasted to 2014, and then came back for two seasons. Papadakis and Cizeron have five World Championship golds and would’ve made a run at 6 if not for Covid.

So in short, they basically had the same longevity at the top of the sport.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Looking at James/Radford's results:

2021 CS Autumn Classic International: 2nd over Stellato-Dudek/Deschamps, Matte/Ferland
2021 CS Finlandia: 5th over Moore-Towers/Marinaro
2021 Skate Canada International: 4th over Moore-Towers/Marinaro, Matte/Ferland
2021 Internationaux de France: 4th, no other Canadian Pairs
2021 CS Golden Spin of Zagreb: 4th over Moore-Towers/Marinaro, Walsh/Michaud
2022 Canadian Figure Skating Championships: withdraw after placing 4th in the SP, but selected for the OWG
2022 Winter Olympics – Pair skating: Finished 12th, behind Canada #2, Moore-Towers/Marinaro (10th)
2022 World Figure Skating Championships: 3rd over Walsh/Michaud

They lost once to another Canadian in ISU competition, the 2022 Olympics, and they pushed down other teams for whom the path to the Olympics was a real possibility.

So it didn't matter that they ended a one-year partnership with "only" a World bronze: they had significant impact on the other teams in their own country, a year before the Olympics, and came within a stupid ISU ruling not to change placements for the TE and move Canada over Russia of winning a Team bronze.

Neither James nor Radford was as strong as their counterparts in the LFB/GC partnership -- LFB was first held back by skating for Denmark, and, recently, she was held back by Sorensen's limits -- and they certainly weren't nearly as accomplished as Cizeron.

 

[Karen-W]

I don't see how anyone can really draw a comparison in potential first season success for Fournier-Beaudry/Cizeron to what happened to James/Radford. Ice dance and pairs are radically different disciplines in so many ways, especially the lack of jumps & throws in dance. That's not to say that ice dance doesn't have its own risky elements, just that I think it's far more likely for a new team with the level of success & skill that Gui & Lolo have already, plus coming from the same ice dance center, will head into their first season together primed for success in a way that simply wasn't realistic for Vanessa & Eric.

And the new team, unless they are an epic fail, has the FFSG's backing as France #1. That is now, not premature.

What is the same between the V/M and the LFB/GC situation is the that announcement was made before the Worlds in which their countries #1 team's status is devalued at the upcoming Worlds, and, unless the new team has an epic fail, it crushes the teams below them, and that they come in as their country's #1, even if LFB/GC haven't stepped foot on competitive ice before, which V/M did. It doesn't matter where LFB/GC place, as long as they place over L/B and D/LM, which will happen only if 1. They are an epic fail 2. Or they're a mess, but pull out of events, leaving L/B as the top currently competing team from France, but not really France #1 until they're ready to take their place at Championships. Which I don't think they'll do, if there's a chance they can place behind L/B.

Also factor in to this that France does NOT have a judge on the Worlds panel for ice dance this year. There is zero incentive for anyone, not even IAM, unfortunately, to prop LopBri up over the teams they're fighting with for 4th-6th - Fear/Gib, Laj/Lag, CarPon, TurkVers, SmaDie, and ReedAmbru.

Now, I don't think LopBri will take THAT big of a hit in the final standings, but I don't think they'll wind up in the Top 6, and they may not even be assigned to GPdF next fall as a result. The FFSG is going to want to position FBCiz as well as they possibly can to make the GPF, but they'll not want LopBri losing bronze at their home GP, so they'll try to get them somewhere else where they have a shot at medaling - maybe SCI and CoC or NHK, depending on where FBCiz are assigned. It is going to be super-fascinating to see how the feds strategize their teams' GP assignments (all of the feds, not just FFSG).

 

[MacMadame]

Dont we all have bathroom break teams/ladies?

Um, no? I like to watch all the skating. Bathroom breaks are for ice cuts.

 

[cholla]

Um, no? I like to watch all the skating. Bathroom breaks are for ice cuts.

With smartphones anyway, bathroom breaks don't necessarily mean you have to stop watching

 

[PRlady]

I don't see how anyone can really draw a comparison in potential first season success for Fournier-Beaudry/Cizeron to what happened to James/Radford. Ice dance and pairs are radically different disciplines in so many ways, especially the lack of jumps & throws in dance. That's not to say that ice dance doesn't have its own risky elements, just that I think it's far more likely for a new team with the level of success & skill that Gui & Lolo have already, plus coming from the same ice dance center, will head into their first season together primed for success in a way that simply wasn't realistic for Vanessa & Eric.


Also factor in to this that France does NOT have a judge on the Worlds panel for ice dance this year. There is zero incentive for anyone, not even IAM, unfortunately, to prop LopBri up over the teams they're fighting with for 4th-6th - Fear/Gib, Laj/Lag, CarPon, TurkVers, SmaDie, and ReedAmbru.

Now, I don't think LopBri will take THAT big of a hit in the final standings, but I don't think they'll wind up in the Top 6, and they may not even be assigned to GPdF next fall as a result. The FFSG is going to want to position FBCiz as well as they possibly can to make the GPF, but they'll not want LopBri losing bronze at their home GP, so they'll try to get them somewhere else where they have a shot at medaling - maybe SCI and CoC or NHK, depending on where FBCiz are assigned. It is going to be super-fascinating to see how the feds strategize their teams' GP assignments (all of the feds, not just FFSG).

LopBri are European medalists and in the final group for RD. They’re only fighting with Fear/Gib and LaLa for 4-6 barring mistakes. The others are clearly behind unless the politics are really really blatant.

 

[Aceon6]

LopBri are European medalists and in the final group for RD. They’re only fighting with Fear/Gib and LaLa for 4-6 barring mistakes. The others are clearly behind unless the politics are really really blatant.

I wonder if they’ll edit “Oh Those Russians” for Boston. Most are vaguely familiar with Rasputin the mystic, but this particular song wasn’t a thing in the US unless you’re a TicToker.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Weaver/Poje came into February 15, 2016 as Canada #1 and two-time World medalists. February 16, 2016, Virtue/Moir announce their return for the following season. At 2016 Worlds, without V/M taking a step onto competitive ice, no-longer-the-real-Canada-#1 Weaver/Poje placed 5th, with the Shibs and Chock/Bates jumping over them, and again falling behind Cappellini/Lanote. With Virtue/Moir back and at a home Worlds, they came in 4th, but still not passing the Shibs again. They were on the Worlds podium again only after V/M won the 2018 Olympics and were finally done, and this time it was Hubbell/Donohue who jumped over them. Weaver/Poje were contenders longer than Lopareva/Brissaud have been. (And should have been World Champions in 2014 .)

For some teams, results are more elastic than others, regardless of performance, and politiks are always there unless you are Soviet Pairs teams 1-3, where the politics are internal.

Do I expect Lopareva/Brissaud to fall to 8th? No. And Fear/Gibson might end up getting knocked down from their pewter spot behind Lopareva/Brissaud and/or Lajoie/Lagha. But the possibility of Lajoie/Lagha pushing past isn't that slim. If LFB/GC are one season and done, that gives Lajoie/Lagha a big advantage going into the next quad. If LFB/GC decide to stay, whether to "take it one season at a time" or "we're in it for 2030," that means L/B will likely be perpetual underdogs, even if we thing they're better than LFB/GC, just like many of us think that Lajoie/Lagha should be Canada #1.

 

[MsZem]

This is a lot of speculation before we've seen anything from F-B/C.

And I'll address the elephant in the room: we don't know how people (=judges) will respond to Laurence given her association with Sorensen.

 

[Karen-W]

LopBri are European medalists and in the final group for RD. They’re only fighting with Fear/Gib and LaLa for 4-6 barring mistakes. The others are clearly behind unless the politics are really really blatant.

You know, I wrote a long post over in the Dance Hall thread after Euros about LopBri's inflated scores (as well as TurkVers, PiriHara and DemLeM). I know a lot of LopBri & TurkVers fans want to believe that they've risen above the likes of CarPon, but there's not any legitimate reason to believe that's true. TurkVers' scores fell back into the range they'd been in all season long at the Road to 26 Trophy and, as I mentioned in my last post in this particular thread, there is NO French judge on the Worlds panel (nor a Finnish or Spanish judge, for that matter).

I expect that USA, CAN & ITA are going to have common cause to prop up the top 3 as well as FearGib, LajLag and CarPon. The absolute best LopBri can hope for is 7th, but really, I could see them winding up 8th in the middle of the pack of five teams who've consistently (aside from Euros) scored in the 196-198 range this season (CarPon, LopBri, TurkVers, ReedAmbru & SmaDie).

And I'll address the elephant in the room: we don't know how people (=judges) will respond to Laurence given her association with Sorensen.

Will not care. Evidence? Worlds 2024. They only dropped because of their own errors in the RD.