Newbie and/or dumb questions

nimi

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,484
I was wondering what is the difference in an impact of landing throw triple versus "regular" quad jump? People are raising concerns about teenagers landing quads, but the pairs ladies usually accumulate like twice the height of regular jump and the speed of landing is pretty similar. If someone can explain, I would be grateful 🙇‍♀️
There's also the rotational speed. Basically, you need to rotate faster to get the fourth revolution done, and controlling and stopping that "extra" momentum when landing a quad is extra challenging.

I haven't studied physics since high school (lol) and also English is not my first language, so I can't explain these things properly, but you can just google "figure skating biomechanics quads" or similar keywords and find a couple of studies, e.g. this pdf, as well as several articles aimed at the general public (i.e. people who might pay attention to skating and quads once every four years). Here's one:


excerpt:
Skaters must dissipate the majority of their energy in their landing, which takes place over a very small time period.

“It would be like slamming on your brakes to come to a stop at 60 miles per hour,” explains King. “They come to a stop very quickly, so that takes a lot of force.”

Why do they stop so quickly? For one thing, the blade and the skating boot are rigid, which strips skaters of some of the flexibility in the foot and ankle. They can’t spread the dissipation of energy over a longer time period and over a bigger range of motion, like a volleyball player who lands with bent ankles, knees, and hips. Plus, the rigid blade is coming down on a concrete floor that’s covered with ice.

And here's another article:

a couple of excerpts:
To land a quadruple jump, skaters have to take off with a huge amount of momentum, often propelling themselves upward by striking the ice with the toe pick. Skaters have to jump high in the air while spinning fast enough to make four revolutions in well under a second. Then they have to withstand momentary impact forces between eight and 10 times their body weight, stop rotating, land, and continue with their routine.
Because skaters will practice jumps dozens of times a day, and always land on the same foot, they’re prone to getting microfractures that can cause major issues later on. And there’s been very little research into how spinning so fast and absorbing so many landings affects the joints.
 

Japanfan

Well-Known Member
Messages
22,056
In many sports, more credence has been given to males as opposed to females. That attitude has been changing, but it is still ingrained in our culture.
Yes, and male athletes have tended to set standards in terms of training techniques. Although perhaps - and hopefully - this has changed in recent years.
 

skateycat

Shortest One in the House
Messages
2,506
Because there are two jumps that start with the letter L, the loop and the lutz, I have this vague recollection of seeing one of them abbreviated with an R.

Did I dream that? If not, which one was represented by the R?
 

DreamSkates

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,332
I would like to know why skaters don't receive more points for a jump combo - meaning if they land a triple jump that's worth, say 5 points, then they land another just like it, why do they not receive 10 points? Isn't it twice the effort to land a jump combination?
And with talk about adjusting points so those with quads don't run away with every competition, awarding full points for every combo could "even the score"???
It just seems that a combo takes more effort than a single jump but is scored like a single jump plus a couple points for the extra jump.
Or, how many jump combos are worth a high number of points? I think I've seen 9 or 10 points on an occasional combo.
 

DreamSkates

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,332
If someone thinks my question is dumb, they could cream me. It doesn’t take much on fsu.
And there is always the "ignore" button you can use for people who have nothing else to do online but cream others! Then you don't even see what they've posted.
 

Sylvia

Wishing I could go back to the Lake Placid JGP
Messages
59,658
Or, how many jump combos are worth a high number of points? I think I've seen 9 or 10 points on an occasional combo.
Link to the Singles & Pairs "Scale of Values" document for this season: https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/21210-2253-s-p-sov-2019-20/file

Current jump base values:

2A 3.3
3T 4.2
3S 4.3
3Lo 4.9
3F 5.3
3Lz 5.9

3А 8.0
4T 9.5
4S 9.7
4Lo 10.5
4F 11.0
4Lz 11.5
4A 12.50

1Eu (Euler) 0.5
3Lz+1Eu+3S 10.70
3Lz+1Eu+3S (2nd half) 11.77
3Lz+3Lo (in 2nd half) 11.88
 
Last edited:

gkelly

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,758
I would like to know why skaters don't receive more points for a jump combo - meaning if they land a triple jump that's worth, say 5 points, then they land another just like it, why do they not receive 10 points?
They do.

Combinations are scored by adding the base values of both jumps (or all three jumps in a three-jump combination).

A triple loop is currently worth 4.9 points, very close to your hypothetical 5.

A 3Lo+3Lo combination would be worth 4.9+4.9=9.8 points in base value, assuming full rotation.

Then the Grade of Execution might bring the total value of the element up or down, depending how well the judges thought it was performed.

Where combinations end up being worth less than twice the base value of the first jump, the reason is probably
1) The second jump had a much lower base value because it was much easier (i.e., a double jump rather than triple)
2) One or both jumps were underrotated or downgraded or had edge calls, errors that lower the base value of the jumps. Underrotations do tend to be more common on later jumps in combinations.
3) The base value was indeed the full sum of both jumps, but errors or weaknesses in execution resulted in negative grade of execution, bringing down the total score for the combo.

Any or all of those reasons might apply on the same combination.
 

DreamSkates

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,332
Thank you for explaining this.
What appears in the box at the top left of the screen will make more sense now, especially variations in base value for the same jump or combo.
Now, I wonder how just a handful of judges and one (?) technical specialist can be thorough with so many aspects to observe and judge in any one program, short or long. Hats off to them!
 

A.H.Black

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,785
This was probably discussed in the competition thread, but I didn't see it. Shcherbakova's costume change made us remember that others have done this too. The one we are trying to remember was 4-5 years ago. Who was it, please.
 

Michalle

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,909
Have they standardized all the Grand Prixs to have all the short programs on Friday and all the longs on Saturday? I feel like I remember more differentiation between the schedules at the different events in the past but for Skate America through Cup of China that appears to be the way it works this year. I haven't been following skating as much, so maybe it's been that way for awhile, or maybe it's just a coincidence?
 

Tony Wheeler

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,457
Have they standardized all the Grand Prixs to have all the short programs on Friday and all the longs on Saturday? I feel like I remember more differentiation between the schedules at the different events in the past but for Skate America through Cup of China that appears to be the way it works this year. I haven't been following skating as much, so maybe it's been that way for awhile, or maybe it's just a coincidence?
I think it’s more-so that no one really wanted to skate a free program and then the exhibition a few hours later. That, and Skate America seems to have been one of the few (maybe NHK too) that had Sunday events, but now that it’s broadcast live outside of NBC, they probably don’t see the need to get the coverage that additional day.

ETA- Grand Prix events don’t take up a whole lot of time. Having all the free skates in one day is only about 7 hours of skating. There were individual segments at Worlds in the late-2000’s/early 2010’s that lasted longer than that 😆
 

DreamSkates

Well-Known Member
Messages
2,332
This was probably discussed in the competition thread, but I didn't see it. Shcherbakova's costume change made us remember that others have done this too. The one we are trying to remember was 4-5 years ago. Who was it, please.
someone already replied
 

gkelly

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,758
How many combination jumps are allowed in the long program?
Three.

One can include three jumps and the others can only include two.

Sequences are also allowed in place of a combination in the freeskate. However, under the current rules the only option for sequences any more is to step forward from the landing of one jump into an axel as the second jump.
 

MacMadame

Cat Lady-in-Training
Messages
30,289
What about all those sequences of 3something-eulier-other jump? I've seen them with 3S a lot and rarely (never?) with a 3X.
 

Tony Wheeler

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,457
What about all those sequences of 3something-eulier-other jump? I've seen them with 3S a lot and rarely (never?) with a 3X.
The Euler counts as a jump and would take up the block of the three-jump combination that is permitted. I am not sure if you are asking why the ending jump is never an Axel-- it can be. Tuktamysheva does a Lutz+Axel sequence in her free skate, but you don't receive the full value of points of 'sequences'.
 

MacMadame

Cat Lady-in-Training
Messages
30,289
I know it can be, but it hardly is. :D I was just thinking that would be a SEQ and not a combo. I swear it used to be.


I have a different question. I am confused about step sequences. I remember the old days where there were several types and each had rules that had to be followed. These days, in singles and pairs, it seems like everything is just a Step Sequence with levels (not counting the Choreo Seq here). And there must be rules so you can tell when they begin and end rather than thinking all connecting moves are a SS. But I'll be damned if I can figure out what they are.

Watching the streaming, I will watch people do a lot of steps and think "this must be the SS" but then it doesn't get called. Or in the middle of their choreography, the SS appears in the Element Box on my screen even though they are still doing choreography (i.e., steps) and there was no pause and ending anywhere in there that I could see.

So what makes a bunch of steps/choreography into a recognized SS vs. just connecting moves (or the official Choreo Seq for that matter though those are generally more recognizable and I actually do know some of the rules for those)?
 

gkelly

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,758
I know it can be, but it hardly is. :D I was just thinking that would be a SEQ and not a combo. I swear it used to be.
Yes, the sequence rules have changed several times over the past 15 years.

Right now, there's only one legal kind of sequence and that is stepping into an axel from the landing of a previous jump.

Euler is now a listed jump and combinations with Euler in the middle count as full three-jump combinations.

Any other kind of sequence that might have been legal a few years ago is now not worth doing.

If a skater steps out of a first jump and puts another jump afterward, in the freeskate it will be called as first jump+second jump*+SEQ. The asterisk means the second jump gets no value.

I have a different question. I am confused about step sequences. I remember the old days where there were several types and each had rules that had to be followed.
You mean about the shape of the sequence (straight-line, circular, serpentine)? Those designations went away pretty early in the IJS era, because skaters needed to be able to double back on their pathways in order to fit in all the features.

These days, in singles and pairs, it seems like everything is just a Step Sequence with levels (not counting the Choreo Seq here). And there must be rules so you can tell when they begin and end rather than thinking all connecting moves are a SS. But I'll be damned if I can figure out what they are.

Watching the streaming, I will watch people do a lot of steps and think "this must be the SS" but then it doesn't get called. Or in the middle of their choreography, the SS appears in the Element Box on my screen even though they are still doing choreography (i.e., steps) and there was no pause and ending anywhere in there that I could see.

So what makes a bunch of steps/choreography into a recognized SS vs. just connecting moves (or the official Choreo Seq for that matter though those are generally more recognizable and I actually do know some of the rules for those)?[/quote]

See the technical panel handbook calling guidelines for step sequences, and choreo sequences.

There aren't really "rules" for what skaters need to do to make them recognizable, aside from filling the whole ice, or what tech panels need to do to recognize them.

If the skaters are aiming for level 4 they will include "clusters" of difficult turns on one foot. Often the first one will be early in the sequence, so that's a good clue that a leveled step sequence is beginning.

If the skaters have submitted Planned Program Content sheets, the tech panel knows when to expect the sequences.

Often the skaters will do a pattern that goes from one end of the ice to the other. If they stop before starting the sequence, that makes it obvious. If they just come around the corner and go into their steps, it might be less obvious at first.

Skaters still sometimes do circular sequences -- the circles are usually placed more or less center ice and within a quarter of the circle it should be clear that the skater is skating a circular pattern.

But it's no longer required to use those specific patterns, so the tech panels need to rely on other clues. Primarily the PPC sheet and the expected technical content in a leveled sequence.
 

MacMadame

Cat Lady-in-Training
Messages
30,289
There aren't really "rules" for what skaters need to do to make them recognizable, aside from filling the whole ice, or what tech panels need to do to recognize them.
:HA!: I bet there are times when the SS L4 comes up on my screen when the skaters think they are still doing the SS and the panel is just confused then!

It seems like there should still be rules. Maybe not the rigid "if your pattern doesn't reach exactly to the end of the rink, it doesn't count!" or "it must be one of these 3 shapes" type of rules like we used to have but something.
 

gkelly

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,758
:HA!: I bet there are times when the SS L4 comes up on my screen when the skaters think they are still doing the SS and the panel is just confused then!
Well, if they've already met all the requirements for level 4 before they reach the end of the step sequence, why shouldn't the panel call it as soon as they know the level can't get any higher?

For a lower level, they should wait till the end before calling the level, or at least until it is demonstrably impossible for the level to go higher.

It seems like there should still be rules. Maybe not the rigid "if your pattern doesn't reach exactly to the end of the rink, it doesn't count!" or "it must be one of these 3 shapes" type of rules like we used to have but something.
Did you read the calling guidelines?
 

MacMadame

Cat Lady-in-Training
Messages
30,289
Well, if they've already met all the requirements for level 4 before they reach the end of the step sequence, why shouldn't the panel call it as soon as they know the level can't get any higher?
But the judges should give GOE on the whole thing.
 

gkelly

Well-Known Member
Messages
14,758
But the judges should give GOE on the whole thing.
They're free to change their GOE if they think the end of the sequence demonstrates positive bullet points that had been missing or inadequate earlier in the sequence -- or, of course, if the skater stumbles or falls toward the end of the sequence.

Also, I think the TV scoretracker shows the score as soon as three judges have input scores. The majority may be waiting for the end of the element, which is why you might see the GOE for that element (or any element) change before the next element shows up on your screen.

Some judges might put in their scores even later than that, or change the score later than that. But the scoretracker has moved on so you won't see that reflected at home.
 

chanchanchan

New Member
Messages
1
3A is literally more difficult than 3-3 combination, so is 4A more diffcult than 4-4 combination?
A 4-4 combination will increase the BV in the SP hugely. why does anyone try this?
 

skatingguy

Golden Team
Messages
6,040
3A is literally more difficult than 3-3 combination, so is 4A more diffcult than 4-4 combination?
A 4-4 combination will increase the BV in the SP hugely. why does anyone try this?
Quad-Quad combinations are not allowed in the short program, and the rule change limiting skaters to repeating only one quad makes doing a quad-quad combination not worth the risk.
 

missing

Well-Known To Whom She Wonders
Messages
2,626
My very amateur perception is that quad lutzes are attempted far more regularly than quad loops. The loop is my favorite jump, so I'm more prone to noticing it.

There's been a lengthy discussion elsewhere at FSU about the issues of prerotation of quad lutzes, and since loops get a lot of prerotation bad mouthing at FSU, I've wondered if that's the reason they're not expanding into quadhood. Lutzes are officially regarded as tougher jumps than loops, so one would think loops would be more often attempted as quads, either that or they should be scored higher than lutzes. So if someone could offer me the prerotation argument, I could stop feeling so defensive of my poor little underappreciated loops and devote greater attention to things like impeachment and how it feels so much colder just because it gets so much darker so early and maybe there is an argument to be made for year round daylight savings time and perhaps it could be slipped in as an article of impeachment and save all of us a lot of time and energy.
 

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