Newbie and/or dumb questions

missing

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I was talking to a friend of mine last night about my Beloved Finn Step and the subject of how the required rhythm dance gets selected came up.

She said she remembered learning/hearing/reading once (a long time ago) that the choices were selected at random, literally picked out of a hat.

This was a response to my own personal favorite conspiracy theory that the polka was chosen to keep the Duchesnays from winning gold at the Olympics (I still shudder remembering Paul Duchesnay's polka outfit).

So how are the annual rhythm dances selected and has the process changed over the years?
 

gkelly

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She said she remembered learning/hearing/reading once (a long time ago) that the choices were selected at random, literally picked out of a hat.
A long time ago, there would have been 3 or 4 or more compulsory dances announced for the whole season and skaters would need to have them all ready to go (including costumes) when they arrived at the competition, and then there would be a random draw for which of that year's selections would be skated at that particular competition.


But I think the selection for the season was always made intentionally by the ISU ice dance technical committee to ensure some variety when there multiple CDs. Occasionally there were two waltzes in the rotation for that season, so if the draw was random the teams could end up skating two waltzes at a given competition. But the ISU wouldn't want the whole group selected for that whole season all to be waltzes.

For the Original Set Pattern, Original Dance, Short Dance, Rhythm Dance, I think the technical committee has always chosen the rhythms intentionally for each season, a couple years in advance, to encourage development or showcasing of technical and creative skills they thought were important or in some cases that they thought would be of interest to general audiences especially in Olympic years.

With the OSP, another intention was to develop new set pattern dances that could be used on social dance sessions (when those were more common) or as new compulsory dances in competition. And with the SD/RD, to use some of those newer more challenging official pattern dances that have been more recently developed.
 

nylynnr

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This was a response to my own personal favorite conspiracy theory that the polka was chosen to keep the Duchesnays from winning gold at the Olympics (I still shudder remembering Paul Duchesnay's polka outfit).
Off topic, but why would the polka hurt the Duchesnays more than, for example, a rumba? IMO, other dances stress the romantic relationship more, and would expose Isabelle's shortcomings more, than the polka.
 

missing

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This thread is so useful when I think of questions I'd love answers to.

Why are they called flights? Does anyone know when the term originated?
 

overedge

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@missing I don't know either, but when you order a set of samples of different beers - like four or five little shot glasses - that too is called a flight. Maybe the ISU Council had a long ago meeting at a pub?
 

missing

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@missing I don't know either, but when you order a set of samples of different beers - like four or five little shot glasses - that too is called a flight. Maybe the ISU Council had a long ago meeting at a pub?
Until I learn otherwise that will definitely be the explanation I favor!
 

mpal2

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I don't know the official reason why something is called a flight but it tends to be used for something (beer, skaters, wine) that have a lot of variety within the main category. It's the same but different.
 

CaliSteve

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Question about planned jumping passes: Say Skater A plan to do a 3Lz+3T and 3 Lo in the short. Skater B plans a 3Lz+3Lo and a 3T. Both have the same base value for the three jumps, but the Lz+3Lo is a more difficult combo. What would be the benefit of doing the more difficult combo? Higher GOE?, higher PCS marks?
 

gkelly

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Question about planned jumping passes: Say Skater A plan to do a 3Lz+3T and 3 Lo in the short. Skater B plans a 3Lz+3Lo and a 3T. Both have the same base value for the three jumps, but the Lz+3Lo is a more difficult combo. What would be the benefit of doing the more difficult combo? Higher GOE?, higher PCS marks?
It shouldn't affect the PCS.

For GOE it depends how they can usually execute each of the elements.

If they can reliably land the harder combo in the second half without much loss of GOE that could help maximize base value.
 

nimi

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Question about planned jumping passes: Say Skater A plan to do a 3Lz+3T and 3 Lo in the short. Skater B plans a 3Lz+3Lo and a 3T. Both have the same base value for the three jumps, but the Lz+3Lo is a more difficult combo. What would be the benefit of doing the more difficult combo? Higher GOE?, higher PCS marks?
Some skater who struggles to land clean +3T combos might just feel they have better chance rotating and landing a +3Lo combo. In other words, even though the toe combo is easier on paper, for some skaters the equivalent loop combo comes more naturally. Mao Asada comes to mind. She did master the 2A+3T but I don't remember ever seeing her attempting something like 3F+3T; yet she was capable of landing some really nice 3F+3Lo combos.
 

Cachoo

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I saw the preview for "Dolittle" and wanted to know if you believe the remake of " Wonderful World" by Reuben and the Dark is skateable.
 
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Vash01

Fan of Yuzuru, Three A's, T&M, P&C
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I asked this in another thread (and will probably get creamed for it)-

Are ladies not allowed to do a quad in the SP? I have not seen any of them do that so I am guessing that the rules don't allow it.
 

Orm Irian

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I asked this in another thread (and will probably get creamed for it)-

Are ladies not allowed to do a quad in the SP? I have not seen any of them do that so I am guessing that the rules don't allow it.
No, they're not; Senior Ladies are only permitted jumps up to the 3A in the SP (Junior Ladies have to do a solo 2A but as Alysia Lui recently showed, they can also do a 3A if it's in combination with another triple or a double jump). Both Senior and Junior Ladies can do quads in the FS only.
 

screech

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No, they're not; Senior Ladies are only permitted jumps up to the 3A in the SP (Junior Ladies have to do a solo 2A but as Alysia Lui recently showed, they can also do a 3A if it's in combination with another triple or a double jump). Both Senior and Junior Ladies can do quads in the FS only.
Hoping this will change soon, as more ladies are completing quads. And with this, I hope the ladies PCS begin to be factored to match the men, since you have skaters like Trusova doing 4 quads in the FP...
What year was it that men were first allowed to do quads in the SP? Late 90s?
 

Orm Irian

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Hoping this will change soon, as more ladies are completing quads.
If by more you mean a tiny handful out of a hundreds-strong field. The SP is currently designed to measure apples against apples, which means it has to reflect the average skill level of the field in each bracket (Seniors, Juniors, Advanced Novices etc), not be recalibrated on the fly to hand an extra advantage to a vanishingly small group of outliers. I'd rather not see them add the option for quads in the senior women's SP until at least a third of the skaters at Worlds are attempting them in the free, and never in the junior SP for either boys or girls.
 

screech

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If by more you mean a tiny handful out of a hundreds-strong field. The SP is currently designed to measure apples against apples, which means it has to reflect the average skill level of the field in each bracket (Seniors, Juniors, Advanced Novices etc), not be recalibrated on the fly to hand an extra advantage to a vanishingly small group of outliers. I'd rather not see them add the option for quads in the senior women's SP until at least a third of the skaters at Worlds are attempting them in the free, and never in the junior SP for either boys or girls.
I understand this, however it's the same thing with 3A which is allowed for ladies - not many more ladies are doing 3A than those doing quads, however the 3A is permitted in the SP, giving skaters like Elizaveta and Rika a technical advantage over everyone else.

I wish the ISU would go back to when it was a specific jump for the solo jump in the SP, which would help make it more apples vs apples.
 

Vash01

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Hoping this will change soon, as more ladies are completing quads. And with this, I hope the ladies PCS begin to be factored to match the men, since you have skaters like Trusova doing 4 quads in the FP...
What year was it that men were first allowed to do quads in the SP? Late 90s?
I don’t remember the exact year but in 1994 they were not allowed to do quads in the SP. In 2001 they were allowed to, So it was somewhere in between. I do remember that in 1998 nobody did a quad in the SP but I don’t remember if it was due to strategy or rule.

Also only a handful of skaters were doing quads at that point - Stojko, and a couple of Chinese skaters. Kulik did it only in his LP in 1998, IIRC. I think Yagudin and Plushenko added it after 1998.
 

Natanielle825

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I definitely think quads should be allowed in the ladies short. If you cant do one then don't, but if you can why shouldnt you be allowed? Why the continued disparity between the men and ladies fields? The SP content imo should be your best axel, your best combo, and your best solo jump, wtvr they are. The push back against ladies doing quads is because right now theyre only coming from one coach and one country but that will change. Personally I'm excited to see more ladies push their technical potential. However I'm strongly inclined to raise the senior age to 18.
 

Vash01

Fan of Yuzuru, Three A's, T&M, P&C
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I definitely think quads should be allowed in the ladies short. If you cant do one then don't, but if you can why shouldnt you be allowed? Why the continued disparity between the men and ladies fields? The SP content imo should be your best axel, your best combo, and your best solo jump, wtvr they are. The push back against ladies doing quads is because right now theyre only coming from one coach and one country but that will change. Personally I'm excited to see more ladies push their technical potential. However I'm strongly inclined to raise the senior age to 18.
Alysa Liu has landed a 4Lz, so it’s not just one coach or one country. I read that Kihira is working on a quad. I don’t know if she has landed one in competition.

I remember those dark days when ladies were allowed to do only a double as a solo jump in the SP. Even skaters like Midori Ito had to settle for a double jump in the SP. The ladies have come a long way but they needed to be liberated to do quad jumps in the SP.
 

Cachoo

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I asked this in another thread (and will probably get creamed for it)-

Are ladies not allowed to do a quad in the SP? I have not seen any of them do that so I am guessing that the rules don't allow it.
I'm curious: Why did you believe you would get creamed for it? I had no idea about the rules in the SP.
 

CaliSteve

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I definitely think quads should be allowed in the ladies short. If you cant do one then don't, but if you can why shouldnt you be allowed? Why the continued disparity between the men and ladies fields? The SP content imo should be your best axel, your best combo, and your best solo jump, wtvr they are. The push back against ladies doing quads is because right now theyre only coming from one coach and one country but that will change. Personally I'm excited to see more ladies push their technical potential. However I'm strongly inclined to raise the senior age to 18.
Until they change the PCS factor to the same as men, Im for keeping the quad out of the short.
 

gkelly

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What year was it that men were first allowed to do quads in the SP? Late 90s?
Yes. The 1998-99* season was the first year that quads were allowed -- as the solo jump only -- in the men's short program. I believe Min Zhang at 1999 Four Continents was the first to complete one successfully.

I think it was two years later (2000-01) that quads were first allowed in the combination.

But it was either/or -- only one quad per program.

It was several years afterward that two quads were allowed in the SP, after at least a handful of men were doing two different quads in their freeskates. I'm pretty sure Kevin Reynolds holds the honors for first SP with two successful quads.


*1998-99 was also the first year that the solo axel in the men's SP was allowed to be triple.
 
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Japanfan

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I definitely think quads should be allowed in the ladies short. If you cant do one then don't, but if you can why shouldnt you be allowed? Why the continued disparity between the men and ladies fields?
And if they are allowed, more female skaters will train them. This will move the field ahead technically, and Ladies tends to stagnate.
 

antmanb

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Also only a handful of skaters were doing quads at that point - Stojko, and a couple of Chinese skaters. Kulik did it only in his LP in 1998, IIRC. I think Yagudin and Plushenko added it after 1998.
Yagudin was definitely attempting the quad that Olympic season - he was really sick at the Nagano Olympics IIRC, but he certainly attempted it but fell on it: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nOlhOooleGw
At the Europeans before he landed on one foot even though it wasn't pretty (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyOZGG1sbX4)
He popped it to a double in the worlds LP.

Pluschenko landed a 4T+3T at Europeans (the 4T was lightly two footed) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAQSWqADK4A
Russia only had two spots at the Olys so Plush didn't go.
Worlds was where he went down on the opening quad and then proceeded to change his entire LP on the fly to try and get it in again instead of doing his 3A combo - he tried the quad again and went down again and then had to fit his other jumps in elsewhere and went down on a later 3A attempt and zayaked himself by including two 4Ts two 3A and two 3Ts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVxkIuTKRcs
 

DreamSkates

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In the youtube video below, there's a comment about how men's centre of gravity is higher than women's which enables easier turning. I have no idea if that's true but if it is, that could be one factor.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jvz3F4HP170
Yes, men and women have body shapes that are different so the center of gravity would be experienced differently (see discussions about keeping the ladies thin and pole-like/easier to get more revolutions vs more a womanly shape; Ashley Wagner made comments about same).
 

aftershocks

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In many sports, more credence has been given to males as opposed to females. That attitude has been changing, but it is still ingrained in our culture.

A great question, and great answers as well...
 

Ladida

Active Member
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I was wondering what is the difference in an impact of landing throw triple versus "regular" quad jump? People are raising concerns about teenagers landing quads, but the pairs ladies usually accumulate like twice the height of regular jump and the speed of landing is pretty similar. If someone can explain, I would be grateful 🙇‍♀️
 

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