Landing forwards?

[pETEs (Sasha Fan)]

I'm thinking about the possibility of an axel as a second or third element in a jump combination. Is it physical possible? Does it necessarily requires the skater to land forwards? Are forward landings ever registered? Are those landings against ISU rules?

Let me now and let's discuss.

 

[mag]

Lots of Skaters land forward (See many of Zagitova’s landings this season) but they still come out of the jump backwards

 

[misskarne]

Forward landings are downgrades. An Axel can be the second jump in a sequence, never a combination.

 

[gkelly]

I think it is not possible to land a multirevolution jump forward on one foot. All forward landings I've seen (that continue forward rather than just turning around to a stable back outside edge) have two-foot landings, even if it's just a quick touchdown and push/assist from the opposite toe.

Two-foot landings are by definitions mistakes, serious mistakes if it's more than a light touchdown.

Here's the only example I know of someone landing on a controlled forward outside edge with no help from the other foot. The first one. And only one revolution in the air. You see that on the second jump (his bad direction) he does put the other foot down immediately, as is typical for intentional forward-landing jumps of half or one-and-a-half revolutions (or one revolution for axel or inside axel takeoffs).

The chances that anyone could land like that first jump and then take off immediately into full single axel the same direction is slim. To do more than single revolution on the first jump, or on the second one for that matter, seems pretty much impossible. It's just not a stable edge for stopping rotation.

Since you are a Sasha Fan, here is Ms. Cohen doing some one-revolution jumps from an inside axel takeoff. Note the two-foot forward landings with toe-assisted forward momentum.

 

[Theoreticalgirl]

ISI teaches a one and a quarter flip jump, which has a forward exit. There's also a bell jump, which is frequently used to train rotation for an axel.

 

[vesperholly]

Landing forward is quite dangerous because there is no toe pick to stabilize you. All backwards landings begin on the toe pick and then immediately rock to the blade to carry out an edge. In order to land on a forward edge, you need to land flat-footed which requires much more precise balance.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Taffy Holliday is an ISU judge who competed for the U.S. in the 1960s. Back in the day, Taffy was profiled by The New York Times about a double jump she invented (but was never sanctioned as an official element) that indeed landed forwards.

 

[Vagabond]

Taffy Holliday is an ISU judge who competed for the U.S. in the 1960s. Back in the day, Taffy was profiled by The New York Times about a double jump she invented (but was never sanctioned as an official element) that indeed landed forwards.

https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1966/12/11/82533242.pdf

 

[skatingguy]

Isn't there also the risk that a forward landed jump will be landed on the toe pick and result in a nasty face first fall? I remember one from Canadian nationals a number of years ago but I can't remember who it was - Jeff Langdon maybe - attempting a triple lutz and coming out at 2 1/2 rotations, catching the toe pick and face planting into the ice.

 

[Clutz]

Landing forward can be done safely with double jumps. Peggy Fleming did so in her 1968 program at the 3:51 mark. https://youtu.be/qxnWoQq9iMY

It could work with doubles but making an Axel the second jump would require edge changes and like the above poster said, jumping in the opposite direction. In my youth, I would do an Axel clockwise and the Salchow counterclockwise....both singles. I think that would be amazing to see as triples but it would still require a change of edges and thus not be a true combination under today's rules.

There use to be a lot of other jumps. Another one I remember is a toeless Lutz that didn't use a toe pick. Again, just not possible as a triple or quad. Ha it would be fun if in the LP they required an old fashion jumping element, like the silly choreographic sequence. Can you imaging Nathen Chen doing a delayed or seated axel??? Wowza!!

 

[bardtoob]

I'm thinking about the possibility of an axel as a second or third element in a jump combination. Is it physical possible? Does it necessarily requires the skater to land forwards? Are forward landings ever registered? Are those landings against ISU rules?

Let me now and let's discuss.

Landing forward in order to do an Axel as the 2nd jump in a combination would cause the first jump in the combination to be or appear to be an underrotated named jump.

Landing forward can be done safely with double jumps. Peggy Fleming did so in her 1968 program at the 3:51 mark. https://youtu.be/qxnWoQq9iMY

That was a 1.5T-2T combination, which is not an error by the standard of the time, but would be considered underrotated if the intention was for the jump to be recognized by the technical panel as a named jump today.

 

[gkelly]

Landing forward can be done safely with double jumps. Peggy Fleming did so in her 1968 program at the 3:51 mark. https://youtu.be/qxnWoQq9iMY

It's 1 1/2 rotations; she lands on two feet and pushes with the left toe onto the right forward inside edge; this kind of landing had been around since the 1930s and was pretty common in the 1960s and early 70s.

We also see it commonly with split jumps and other half-rotation jumps. Often going into a forward inside three turn into double toe, as Fleming does here.

However, because this kind of landing requires both feet on the ice to be safe, it's never going to be accepted as a "clean" jump that receives full credit under IJS or really any rules that require one-foot landings to be considered successful. Which, I imagine, is why the 1 1/2 jumps fell out of favor as triples became more common and more important.

 

[bardtoob]

The best forward landing jump I have seen that was not a Split Flip or Split Falling Leaf is Donald Jackson's single rotation inside Axel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Alrsemq_mzQ&feature=youtu.be&t=170

 

[gkelly]

Taffy Holliday is an ISU judge who competed for the U.S. in the 1960s. Back in the day, Taffy was profiled by The New York Times about a double jump she invented (but was never sanctioned as an official element) that indeed landed forwards.

https://timesmachine.nytimes.com/timesmachine/1966/12/11/82533242.pdf

Sounds from the description as if there was only 1 revolution in the air. However, if she could glide out on the forward edge without touching the other toe to the ice, that is impressive.

It's described as a forward inside takeoff and landing. So an "inside axel" takeoff for this landing, and also for any second jump taking off from the forward landing.
Which is currently a nonlisted jump not in the IJS scale of values. That takeoff could be added to the SOV with an appropriate value for single (1 1/2) and double (2 1/2) rotations; I'd like to see the double inside axel become more common and appropriately rewarded, but I think that with a clean backward landing would be more likely than any multirevolution jump with a clean one-foot forward landing.

Let alone taking off for the inside axel from a forward one-foot landing of a previous jump. It looks from the final picture at that link that she stretched her free foot forward to control the landing, so there would be nowhere for it to swing to help lift into a second inside axel takeoff.

The best forward landing jump that was not a Split Flip or Split Falling Leaf, is Donald Jackson's single rotation inside Axel.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Alrsemq_mzQ&feature=youtu.be&t=170

Again, he lands on two feet and pushes from the right toe to the left forward outside edge.

What is cool about this jump is that he takes off from a clockwise curve and rotates clockwise in the air but the landing edge glides out counterclockwise -- the rotation changes on the landing. The toe assist helps a lot, though.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

In this exhibition at around the 1m:25s mark, Robin Cousins did a 1.5 flip / double flip combination. The first jump appears to be landed forward before Cousins launches himself into the second jump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a7sSuPpmcc

 

[antmanb]

In this exhibition at around the 1m:25s mark, Robin Cousins did a 1.5 flip / double flip combination. The first jump appears to be landed forward before Cousins launches himself into the second jump.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7a7sSuPpmcc

As @gkelly has pointed out with previous forward landed jumps, this one too lands on two feet - with the toe pick assist from the right foot straight into the three turn for the second flip.