Kostornaia leaves Tutberidze

rfisher

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The latter.
She was already seen at the Pluschenko academy (second pic)

Although, I find it interesting that the Fed makes an exeptions for some students/coaches if they want to - for example, Georgy Kunitsa moved from ‘Moskvich’ club to Sambo-70 in the autumn, right between two Russian cup events (and Kolyada switched to Mishin also after the deadline if we are talking about this off-season) :shuffle:
But, does Chebotareva even have any students left? Maybe it was partly her withdrawal from coaching? He left in June. Maybe he'd notified the Fed by the May deadline? I don't recall there being any fanfare one way or the other apart from the fact Mishin wasn't interested in taking Konstantinova as well. Who also left Chebotareva.
 

hanca

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Russian coaches seem particularly temperamental and petty. These kids have it difficult regardless. Maybe Kostornaia just needed a change to help her focus on her last two seasons?
I think it is quite naive to think that. I have seen lots of coaches in this country behaving in such manner that it is at least comparable and possibly even worse than the Russian coaches we are talking about on this forum. The only difference is, Russian coaches seem to be quite open about it, possibly because they don’t think they are doing anything wrong. The behaviour from the coaches here is more hidden. They are well aware what is publicly acceptable behaviour, although it doesn’t mean that they follow it. One of my past coaches was most deadly not when she was screaming at her student, but when she was talking to the student near the barrier in a quiet voice. I noticed that unfortunately the most abusive coaches often have the best results, so their behaviour is then just attributed to ‘being strict’ and it is accepted as a part of the deal. It works the same as brainwashing- the coach starts with being nice, and then later when the coach occasionally stops being nice, the student start believing that it is only their own fault for not doing properly what the coach asks. And the coach is then not nice more and more often and the students would do anything to make the coach happy.

The students usually don’t complain. Firstly, because they believe that it was their fault the coach got angry, and because they feel ashamed that they didn’t do properly what the coach asked them to do (even though they tried their best!). Secondly, there is a certain ‘status’ from having a certain coach. For example, when talking to other skaters I mentioned that I had this coach, I saw the ‘admiration’ in the eyes of other skaters who thought I must be super strong to survive with her. And thirdly, the progress with this coach was fastest than with any other coach I have had. She was the best coach at the rink, and the skaters enjoy the results, enjoy being able to see fast progress. There was also a bit of the culture that the students of this coach considered themselves as ‘the warriors’ (for the lack of better word) and were proud of their strength to survive. I can’t explain it, it was like a cult which is in plain sight, but no one looks too closely to see it. I think the only people aware of it were the ones who were caught in it, and the realisation usually came only after some time. The brainwashing is really powerful; the skater needs to find the will to save themselves otherwise they just can’t see that there is anything wrong with the situation. E.g. if someone tried to get me out of the situation before I started seeing through it, I would have no idea about what they are talking about, if someone told me that what I experienced was an abusive relationship. For quite a while I believed the coach was not doing anything wrong and that I was the one whose fault it was that the coach behaved that way! And even when I started realising that the coach’s behaviour was wrong, it was still tempting to bear it, because it was giving me the results!

There are four rinks around, and I became aware that each rink has a coach like that, some of the rinks even several of them. So my experience wasn’t just an exception. If all this happens on a local level, where the only stakes are children’s domestic competitions and adult skater competitions, I dread to think what’s going on when the stakes are significantly higher, at elite level.
 
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starrynight

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@hanca Very well explained. I had a couple of bosses exactly like that. Psychos. Although I at least was a young adult (21) at the time.

The weirdest thing is that with coaches it’s not even like a boss — people pay the coaches to treat them like that.

I think coaching in every sport at all levels is just full of these characters.

A girl at work who did gymnastics through school explained it really well to me - the best thing in kids sports is just to be basically average so the coaches aren’t interested in you and you can have fun. Show a bit of talent and then the trouble starts. I think she’s very correct.
 
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DobrinFan

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But, does Chebotareva even have any students left? Maybe it was partly her withdrawal from coaching? He left in June. Maybe he'd notified the Fed by the May deadline? I don't recall there being any fanfare one way or the other apart from the fact Mishin wasn't interested in taking Konstantinova as well. Who also left Chebotareva.
Are you serious. She has other students than those 2, they are just children. She's a children coach who was successful with 2. There has been no mention of her retiring. Perhaps she didn't want to make a big deal because she's not at all like Eteri (and her minions) who publicly talk shit about their former students to make herself look like a victim and they like traitors.

Kolyada went to Novogorsk some time in the middle of June or a little later. If the transition was made or spoked about in May, then he would have stayed put in St. Petersburg like so many others until they went to camp in July or the schools there opened. No he went there and urgently left with a family or medical excuse to leave the base (like Kostornaia).
 
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hanca

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@hanca Very well explained. I had a couple of bosses exactly like that. Psychos. Although I at least was a young adult (21) at the time.

The weirdest thing is that with coaches it’s not even like a boss — people pay the coaches to treat them like that.

I think coaching in every sport at all levels is just full of these characters.

A girl at work who did gymnastics through school explained it really well to me - the best thing in kids sports is just to be basically average so the coaches aren’t interested in you and you can have fun. Show a bit of talent and then the trouble starts. I think she’s very correct.
Yes, that’s the weird thing indeed. People pay them to treat them like that, accept this behaviour from them, are loyal to them, make all sorts of excuses for them (for their behaviour) and if anyone asked too many questions, most skaters would lie for them! If my husband ever behaved like that, I would immediately start divorce proceedings. If my boss behaved like that, I would put in my notice even if I didn’t have another job ready for me. And yet, from coach, I paid for this and it took quite a while to see through this. Another weird thing is, on some level we actually enjoyed when this coach screamed at us, because to us it was a sign that she cared (about our skating. Not about us.). Usually, when she stopped screaming, it was when she couldn’t give a damn about the student (the student’s skating) any more.

I am not sure if your friend was right about her opinion of being average. The thing is, I wasn’t any particularly talented either, I was an adult skater, so it is not as if my skating outcomes were important for this coach’s career, and yet I got the same treatment as all her students. So being average would probably not help your friend with this coach. And explaining to the coach that you are doing it for fun would not help either. In fact, if your friend has any sense of self-preservation, she would probably decide not to mention the words ‘for fun’.
 

feraina

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I think it is quite naive to think that. I have seen lots of coaches in this country behaving in such manner that it is at least comparable and possibly even worse than the Russian coaches we are talking about on this forum. The only difference is, Russian coaches seem to be quite open about it, possibly because they don’t think they are doing anything wrong. The behaviour from the coaches here is more hidden. They are well aware what is publicly acceptable behaviour, although it doesn’t mean that they follow it. One of my past coaches was most deadly not when she was screaming at her student, but when she was talking to the student near the barrier in a quiet voice. I noticed that unfortunately the most abusive coaches often have the best results, so their behaviour is then just attributed to ‘being strict’ and it is accepted as a part of the deal. It works the same as brainwashing- the coach starts with being nice, and then later when the coach occasionally stops being nice, the student start believing that it is only their own fault for not doing properly what the coach asks. And the coach is then not nice more and more often and the students would do anything to make the coach happy.

The students usually don’t complain. Firstly, because they believe that it was their fault the coach got angry, and because they feel ashamed that they didn’t do properly what the coach asked them to do (even though they tried their best!). Secondly, there is a certain ‘status’ from having a certain coach. For example, when talking to other skaters I mentioned that I had this coach, I saw the ‘admiration’ in the eyes of other skaters who thought I must be super strong to survive with her. And thirdly, the progress with this coach was fastest than with any other coach I have had. She was the best coach at the rink, and the skaters enjoy the results, enjoy being able to see fast progress. There was also a bit of the culture that the students of this coach considered themselves as ‘the warriors’ (for the lack of better word) and were proud of their strength to survive. I can’t explain it, it was like a cult which is in plain sight, but no one looks too closely to see it. I think the only people aware of it were the ones who were caught in it, and the realisation usually came only after some time. The brainwashing is really powerful; the skater needs to find the will to save themselves otherwise they just can’t see that there is anything wrong with the situation. E.g. if someone tried to get me out of the situation before I started seeing through it, I would have no idea about what they are talking about, if someone told me that what I experienced was an abusive relationship. For quite a while I believed the coach was not doing anything wrong and that I was the one whose fault it was that the coach behaved that way! And even when I started realising that the coach’s behaviour was wrong, it was still tempting to bear it, because it was giving me the results!

There are four rinks around, and I became aware that each rink has a coach like that, some of the rinks even several of them. So my experience wasn’t just an exception. If all this happens on a local level, where the only stakes are children’s domestic competitions and adult skater competitions, I dread to think what’s going on when the stakes are significantly higher, at elite level.
When I was an adult skater in Britain and my awesome coach relocated, he was trying to help me find another local coach — spontaneously he said he was trying to think of someone who wasn’t so ‘screamy’, not someone who was good or anything. I ended up at a rink where there were a ton of very loud and verbally abusive coaches. My new coach was not screamy but also didn’t care about me at all, often postponing or canceling my lessons with no notice. I was really shocked at the amount of verbal abuse at the rinks. I’ve also skated at many American rinks in quite a few cities and it was nothing like that. British coaches struck me as a whole as very crass and uneducated people (because in general the Brits are very polite and well mannered, unless drunk, and they pride themselves in having good manners) — I don’t know if that’s really true or if it’s ‘rink culture’ that turns otherwise perfectly civil people into screamy monsters when they’re coaching.
 

feraina

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I think it is quite naive to think that. I have seen lots of coaches in this country behaving in such manner that it is at least comparable and possibly even worse than the Russian coaches we are talking about on this forum. The only difference is, Russian coaches seem to be quite open about it, possibly because they don’t think they are doing anything wrong. The behaviour from the coaches here is more hidden. They are well aware what is publicly acceptable behaviour, although it doesn’t mean that they follow it. One of my past coaches was most deadly not when she was screaming at her student, but when she was talking to the student near the barrier in a quiet voice. I noticed that unfortunately the most abusive coaches often have the best results, so their behaviour is then just attributed to ‘being strict’ and it is accepted as a part of the deal. It works the same as brainwashing- the coach starts with being nice, and then later when the coach occasionally stops being nice, the student start believing that it is only their own fault for not doing properly what the coach asks. And the coach is then not nice more and more often and the students would do anything to make the coach happy.

The students usually don’t complain. Firstly, because they believe that it was their fault the coach got angry, and because they feel ashamed that they didn’t do properly what the coach asked them to do (even though they tried their best!). Secondly, there is a certain ‘status’ from having a certain coach. For example, when talking to other skaters I mentioned that I had this coach, I saw the ‘admiration’ in the eyes of other skaters who thought I must be super strong to survive with her. And thirdly, the progress with this coach was fastest than with any other coach I have had. She was the best coach at the rink, and the skaters enjoy the results, enjoy being able to see fast progress. There was also a bit of the culture that the students of this coach considered themselves as ‘the warriors’ (for the lack of better word) and were proud of their strength to survive. I can’t explain it, it was like a cult which is in plain sight, but no one looks too closely to see it. I think the only people aware of it were the ones who were caught in it, and the realisation usually came only after some time. The brainwashing is really powerful; the skater needs to find the will to save themselves otherwise they just can’t see that there is anything wrong with the situation. E.g. if someone tried to get me out of the situation before I started seeing through it, I would have no idea about what they are talking about, if someone told me that what I experienced was an abusive relationship. For quite a while I believed the coach was not doing anything wrong and that I was the one whose fault it was that the coach behaved that way! And even when I started realising that the coach’s behaviour was wrong, it was still tempting to bear it, because it was giving me the results!

There are four rinks around, and I became aware that each rink has a coach like that, some of the rinks even several of them. So my experience wasn’t just an exception. If all this happens on a local level, where the only stakes are children’s domestic competitions and adult skater competitions, I dread to think what’s going on when the stakes are significantly higher, at elite level.
Oh I think your explanation makes perfect sense. The whole thing about status seeking and being almost a cult, and being brainwashed — it all makes sense to me. Not in sports but in schooling, I went through a very prestigious and extremely rigorous college where there was a serious suicide issue, and an even more intense PhD program where half the students dropped out along the way. In both places there was serious brainwashing going on and a cult mentality. I didn’t realize until much later that maybe it wasn’t a good psychological environment for everyone or even most people.

I’m not equating elite skating with higher education — there was no abuse going on in the educational institutions, only a psychologically unhealthy culture where young people worked themselves to death and were proud of it... but I can totally see what you mean about skaters self blaming and not being able to see the cult mentality etc, when it comes to abusive coaches.
 

hanca

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Oh I think your explanation makes perfect sense. The whole thing about status seeking and being almost a cult, and being brainwashed — it all makes sense to me. Not in sports but in schooling, I went through a very prestigious and extremely rigorous college where there was a serious suicide issue, and an even more intense PhD program where half the students dropped out along the way. In both places there was serious brainwashing going on and a cult mentality. I didn’t realize until much later that maybe it wasn’t a good psychological environment for everyone or even most people.

I’m not equating elite skating with higher education — there was no abuse going on in the educational institutions, only a psychologically unhealthy culture where young people worked themselves to death and were proud of it... but I can totally see what you mean about skaters self blaming and not being able to see the cult mentality etc, when it comes to abusive coaches.
Thank you, @feraina . This is one of the topic I don’t speak very often about. Not many people who have never experienced this can fully understand it. Quite honestly, until I experienced it myself I am not sure I would fully appreciate the complex dynamics of such relationship. Especially because coach-skater is supposed to be a professional relationship rather than a personal relationship like with your partner or family, and at my level of skating it was only my hobby and not a career, so many people from outside would not easily understand why the student doesn’t leave if this was happening. Especially when the student also pays for this.
 

Natanielle825

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I'm glad they left Tutberidze but I worry Plushenko will indulge them, ie: letting Trusova jump as many quads as she wants w/o consistency, and letting Kostornaia skate to pop music.
 

AngieNikodinovLove

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It matters because I'm sure she doesn't want to pay for programs, costumes, coach, ice, etc all by herself. I already referenced an article in this thread with Popova saying how expensive figure skating is when you have to pay for everything out of pocket. Plushenko has a private school so his fees are even more expensive.
That’s not what I’m talking about. And that wasn’t my question either. I was asking about why skaters can’t switch coaches after they’ve been funded by the Federation. It’s not like you’re stopping skating. They are still skating which means they’re still accruing the same expenses so what does it matter if Mary or Nina is named as Coach.
 

DobrinFan

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That’s not what I’m talking about. And that wasn’t my question either. I was asking about why skaters can’t switch coaches after they’ve been funded by the Federation. It’s not like you’re stopping skating. They are still skating which means they’re still accruing the same expenses so what does it matter if Mary or Nina is named as Coach.
No one said they couldn't transfer. She already has and she'll be representing her old school.
 

AngieNikodinovLove

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No one said they couldn't transfer. She already has and she'll be representing her old school.
Too much misinformation here then. Because I was responding to someone who told me that Russians can’t switch coaches after May. And I was addressing that person
 

DobrinFan

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Too much misinformation here then. Because I was responding to someone who told me that Russians can’t switch coaches after May. And I was addressing that person
And I responded many times that skaters can there just may be some complications. The only time they can't is the Olympic season but someone can correct me if I'm wrong.
 

feraina

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Ironic. I just had my own taste of this when one of my Phd students told me on July 31 that he will no longer work with me from August, ie the next day. This after we already had long discussions about his future and whether my lab is the right place for him to continue in, and we just spent a whole month planning for the upcoming year. It hurts, I get it, to put in all that money and especially time, and emotional energy, only to have the person walking out unceremoniously and without an explanation. But am I going to publicize his name and possibly poison his future career with other advisors? Of course not! What’s the point of that? Except to be vindictive? Would it look good to future students who might want to work with you? Stop them from leaving you unless they’re 100% committed? No it doesn’t work like that. People change, especially young people. Even if they were seriously committed they might grow up and realize their needs have changed. Acting vindictive would only sabotage your own reputation and scare promising students off, I would think. And encourage future students not to say anything about a switch until they have everything completely sewn up so that you can’t sabotage them, and thus leaving you badly surprised every single time.
 

starrynight

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and at my level of skating it was only my hobby and not a career, so many people from outside would not easily understand why the student doesn’t leave if this was happening. Especially when the student also pays for this.
Given how much it costs to skate, I actually can't believe a coach manages to keep any kind of business afloat if this is how adult skaters are treated.

Particularly given adults can get exercise at any number of delightfully positive fitness classes etc available at gyms and fitness studios. Or have one on one guidance from a lovely personal trainer for the same or less money.

Perhaps we are now explaining quite frankly why skating doesn't have popularity.
 

CaliSteve

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Yeah but it seems she only has skaters that are young and tiny. Once they're no longer young and/or tiny, they don't last long with her, and it's almost always "their" fault.
Yup. The jump techniques are not sustainable. Once you hit puberty it becomes more and more difficult to sustain the jump technique and its impact on the body.
 

hanca

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Given how much it costs to skate, I actually can't believe a coach manages to keep any kind of business afloat if this is how adult skaters are treated.

Particularly given adults can get exercise at any number of delightfully positive fitness classes etc available at gyms and fitness studios. Or have one on one guidance from a lovely personal trainer for the same or less money.

Perhaps we are now explaining quite frankly why skating doesn't have popularity.
I can explain how. Firstly, there is not enough coaches at most rinks in my area. Much more people want lessons than the coaches can manage to accommodate. As soon as a coach has a space, there is a long queue of people waiting to grab the spot. So actually, it is quite opposite to what you think - skating is more popular than you would believe. And secondly, as I already explained, often the skaters actually don’t realise that it is the coach who is the problem; they think it is their fault that they couldn’t do something. They feel guilty or even embarrassed for making the coach mad. It takes quite a while before one start realising that it is not their fault, and even then there is the temptation to bear it as long as they can, because the progress is great! And lastly, you are right that the adults might be able to go to gym or fitness studio, but they are at the rink because they want to skate, not to be sweating at a gym. It’s the same like if you told a swimmer ‘oh, don’t worry that you can’t go swimming, you can always go for a walk!’.
 

hanca

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That's because Zhenya was plagued with injuries, which is a pattern.
My guess would be that the injuries were from overtraining. The question is whether it was Medvedeva who pushed herself that hard or whether it was the coaching team pushing her. It could have been either.
 

antmanb

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When I was an adult skater in Britain and my awesome coach relocated, he was trying to help me find another local coach — spontaneously he said he was trying to think of someone who wasn’t so ‘screamy’, not someone who was good or anything. I ended up at a rink where there were a ton of very loud and verbally abusive coaches. My new coach was not screamy but also didn’t care about me at all, often postponing or canceling my lessons with no notice. I was really shocked at the amount of verbal abuse at the rinks. I’ve also skated at many American rinks in quite a few cities and it was nothing like that. British coaches struck me as a whole as very crass and uneducated people (because in general the Brits are very polite and well mannered, unless drunk, and they pride themselves in having good manners) — I don’t know if that’s really true or if it’s ‘rink culture’ that turns otherwise perfectly civil people into screamy monsters when they’re coaching.
Out of interest where did you skate?

I skate at Deeside in North Wales and I honestly have never heard any coach screaming at anyone (which isn't to say that it doesn't happen), but then we also don't really produce elite skaters at my rink with the exception of ice dancers that were coached by Joan Slater, but that was temporary while Altrincham rink was closed down and a new one built.

Perhaps its more of a problem that the rinks that produce more elite skaters? Whenever I went to adult camps or national competitions there was always some rumour or other about Yuri Bureiko, and the adults from the Milton Keynes area had some colourful stories about coaches.
 

DobrinFan

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Plushenko announced the resolution of the issue with Kostornaya's transfer through the Ministry of Sports
https://sportrbc.ru/news/5f2a7f799a7947303bd769a6
“Alena has started the training process. She skates with Sergei Rozanov. In parallel, we are preparing documents. Despite the fact that the transfer window is closed, we expect to make the transition, ”Plushenko hopes.

The two-time Olympic champion expects that Kostornaya will still be allowed to go to his academy. “I want to talk with the Ministry of Sports, with the Minister of Sports, so that Alena would be allowed to change the club as an exception. If we are met, it will be great. Still, Alena is the European champion, ”Plushenko explained.

But if the transition is not allowed, this will not be a problem. “In official competitions, she can skate for the previous club, and train with me. I have no obstacles to this, ”the head of the academy specified.
 

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