Keeping Track of Criminal Cases & SafeSport Suspensions in Skating

[Prancer]

I think those who are stating the reality backed by stats are just defending their choice to believe the alleged victim in this matter and why they are less inclined to give Sorensen the benefit of the doubt.

If that were what they were saying, I wouldn't argue with them.

But my response to the argument at hand is also in response to this earlier post made by the same poster:

I'm going to sound heartless but I actually don't care if men are falsely accused. It's just desserts for the way women have been victimized, harassed, even killed for making an accusation of rape. I literally do not care about false accusations. If a woman says she was raped I believe her.

To me, @canbelto is making the same argument, but trying to present it in a more reasonable way.

Since most here are just reacting to the news and giving their two cents and have no involvement in the investigation and factual findings of this investigation, then I think they’re fine taking this position for the most part so long as they don’t go crazy and start harassing parties or interfering with the investigation.

Well, we all have opinions.

 

[VGThuy]

Ah, gotcha. I think my mind glazes over posts like that because well… it’s clear reasonable discussion isn’t going to be happening and there is clearly some deep things going on that I don’t feel comfortable poking. But posts like that should be tempered and I’m glad you, Tony, and others are responding because we shouldn’t tolerate or even encourage a culture of accepting false accusations even if some think it’s justified due to how society has been and continues to be unfair towards the mostly female victims in this particular realm.

 

[Frau Muller]

The entire subject and situation is sad. How did modern society get itself into this situation? Drugs, weak parenting, less religion and discipline? This is not for us to argue. Just a sad comment on society in general, in 2024. We just need to open our eyes and be more vigilant on drugs, alcohol, relations.

 

[leilaofpaper]

The entire subject and situation is sad. How did modern society get itself into this situation? Drugs, weak parenting, less religion and discipline? This is not for us to argue. Just a sad comment on society in general, in 2024. We just need to open our eyes and be more vigilant on drugs, alcohol, relations.

Sexual assault is hardly a problem of modern society. It’s one of the oldest forms of violence.

 

[On My Own]

But my response to the argument at hand is also in response to this earlier post made by the same poster:

To me, @canbelto is making the same argument, but trying to present it in a more reasonable way.

Well, and also to the people who liked that post.

I'll just say that such an attitude is likely to make people less inclined to believe true accusations, and things like these will never help. They might want to reconsider and I genuinely hope it's a very niche point of view, but knowing online "feminism" it's likely to be at least somewhat mainstream.

 

[chantilly]

The entire subject and situation is sad. How did modern society get itself into this situation? Drugs, weak parenting, less religion and discipline? This is not for us to argue. Just a sad comment on society in general, in 2024. We just need to open our eyes and be more vigilant on drugs, alcohol, relations.

Uhm no. The things you mention especially mentioning “less religion” given the extreme number of sexual abuse cases in religious institutions are not the problem.
I find the idea that religion saves all offensive in the case of discussing sexual assault.
Toxic parenting may be an issue but “weak parenting” I believe rarely creates rapists.
I don’t know the statistics but I doubt very much that drug abuse or issues are the prevalent cause for people who rape.

 

[chantilly]

repeat post.
Sorry

 

[PRlady]

Go ask Hamas about their weak parents and drug addiction. The ones who committed mass rape did it as an extreme example of power over an enemy, and god knows they’re religious.

Conservatives see rape as an outcome of permissive societies. Didn’t Putin remove or lower the penalties for domestic violence? Didn’t US conservatives, mostly on the religious right, object when our laws were changed on marital rape? Until then, men could legally rape their wives, the concept of marital rape wasn’t accepted.

Given that there are tales of rape in the book of Genesis and Ancient Greek and other myths, modern society’s ills have nothing to do with it. If anything, understanding rape culture has probably improved the odds for young women and taught different lessons to young men.

 

[Orm Irian]

Conservatives see rape as an outcome of permissive societies.

In my experience, conservatives generally see rape as as simultaneously a man's right and a woman's fault.

 

[Private Citizen]

I think you have made sone mistakes in your facts or perhaps you just need to provide your sources. The 2-10% figure applies to false accusations, not underreporting.

You're right, I made a typo and wrote "underreported" where I meant to write "false accusations." I have edited, but left my mistake in strikethrough.

If one uses RAINN as a source, out of 1000 sexual assaults in the US, only 310 are reported, meaning 690 or 69% are not. That is severe underreporting.

Severe is a judgment call, not a fact.

This looks like severe underpunishing to me

Yes, to you. Again, not a fact. People are welcome to present their opinions. I will call them out if they are falsely claiming their opinion is a fact, and therefore correct, while other opinions are not. Maybe their opinion is better supported than others' opinions, but that does not make it a fact.

In my experience, conservatives generally see rape as as simultaneously a man's right and a woman's fault.

Can we please take PI to PI and not make broad, sweeping generalizations about ~50% of the US population?

 

[Prancer]

The entire subject and situation is sad. How did modern society get itself into this situation? Drugs, weak parenting, less religion and discipline? This is not for us to argue. Just a sad comment on society in general, in 2024. We just need to open our eyes and be more vigilant on drugs, alcohol, relations.

In my experience, conservatives generally see rape as as simultaneously a man's right and a woman's fault.

I don't know whether to laugh, cry or scream here. Maybe we should all take a step back for a couple of days.

 

[canbelto]

The entire subject and situation is sad. How did modern society get itself into this situation? Drugs, weak parenting, less religion and discipline? This is not for us to argue. Just a sad comment on society in general, in 2024. We just need to open our eyes and be more vigilant on drugs, alcohol, relations.

Omg. Lol. I can't. Bless your heart.

 

[Wyliefan]

In my experience, conservatives generally see rape as as simultaneously a man's right and a woman's fault.

You might be surprised how that cuts across the ideological and political spectrum. When I was growing up, Democrats saw Ted Kennedy as a naughty overgrown boy just having a bit of fun with those waitresses and political staffers. NOW, post-#MeToo, they look back and say, "Oh, how horrible!" But at the time he was "the Lion of the Senate" and absolutely indispensable. And he wasn't the only one.

 

[On My Own]

I'm going to sound heartless but I actually don't care if men are falsely accused. It's just desserts for the way women have been victimized, harassed, even killed for making an accusation of rape. I literally do not care about false accusations. If a woman says she was raped I believe her.

Omg. Lol. I can't. Bless your heart.

 

[LeafOnTheWind]

Can we please take PI to PI and not make broad, sweeping generalizations about ~50% of the US population?

~25% of the US population

~50% doesn't want to claim either side but both parties are narcissists and don't give fcuk about the rest of us. We are a growing population and yet we are always forgotten.

Anyone want to explain that one in PI?

 

[Prancer]

Anyone want to explain that one in PI?

Could everyone please take all of this to PI?

 

[Wyliefan]

Sorry, we did get carried away with the thread drift.

 

[VGThuy]

Like racism and other things like that… rape and sexual assault and entitlement to sex and controlling reproduction cuts across political boundaries and even societal-culture lines. It’s pervasive across the board. It just shows up in different ways. But keeping the conversation going and airing our observations will help us move forward, even if it is a painful process overall.

 

[MacMadame]

Like racism and other things like that… rape and sexual assault and entitlement to sex and controlling reproduction cuts across political boundaries and even societal-culture lines. It’s pervasive across the board. It just shows up in different ways. But keeping the conversation going and airing our observations will help us move forward, even if it is a painful process overall.

If you say so. Personally I think the conversation at this point is serving no purpose at all.

 

[Andora]

I do think positions around here have evolved after what happened with John C., and even Morgan Cipres.

I don't fault immediate family/friends of someone accused for not immediately excoriating them early in investigations. Though I'm surprised IAM's leadership isn't proceeding more cautiously, considering the Cipres situation specifically. I guess there's two schools of thought from a business perspective to future students: supporting Nikolaj indicates one thing, but if they'd shown disloyalty to a longtime student, that indicates another.

If you say so. Personally I think the conversation at this point is serving no purpose at all.

Well... there's conversation, and then there's what we do at FSU.

 

[jackson]

If you say so. Personally I think the conversation at this point is serving no purpose at all.

I agree

 

[canbelto]

For all the people who are like "BuT WhY dIdnT shE SpEaK Up eArliEr?" this is exactly why. Because women are attacked and not believed and every benefit of the doubt is always given to the rapist.

Also, and this is just thinking about figure skating history: when was the last time someone in figure skating was accused of something serious like sexual assault and it turns out the accusations were frivolous? John Coughlin? Morgan Cipres? Richard Callaghan? Richard Gauthier? Gilles Beyer? Refresh my memory here. The figure skating world is tiny. Everyone knows everyone else's business. People don't throw bombs about SA unless they're true because: 1) everyone knows who you are, and your business; and 2) it would damage your ability to stay in the business if you made frivolous accusations

 

[Prancer]

For all the people who are like "BuT WhY dIdnT shE SpEaK Up eArliEr?"

Who has said this?

this is exactly why. Because women are attacked

Who has attacked her?

and not believed

Who doesn't believe her?

and every benefit of the doubt is always given to the rapist.

Every one? Does that include being presumed a rapist by someone who considers the truth to be irrelevant?

Also, and this is just thinking about figure skating history: when was the last time someone in figure skating was accused of something serious like sexual assault and it turns out the accusations were frivolous?

So again, you are presuming guilt based on numbers?

You do realize that presenting arguments like this (or maybe you don't) is what pushes the argument in this direction? It is your stated position that is being argued against, not the victim's accusations.

 

[canbelto]

Who has said this?

Who has attacked her?

Who doesn't believe her?

Let's see, in this thread we have people stating that rape is a "mistake" that happened once and thus his career should not be destroyed:

@fsfann wrote:

IF this situation happened (and I have no reason to believe it didn't), does the perpetrator deserve to have their entire career destroyed? If you say yes to this, then would you say the same to any other professional/adult who has made a mistake in their past? (ie: If a victim comes forward 10-15 years after an alleged rape, should the accused automatically be fired and lose their job?). If that is the case, I think you could see hundreds of thousands of people around the world lose their jobs because of one accusation.

 

[ignosk8er]

As an SA survivor, it took me 25 years and the death of the abuser before I could whisper one iota of my pain to anyone. I carried around a mountain of shame and fear for years rather than face disdain, disbelief, and worse. How can anyone know what the accuser has been and is now going through?

Having written that, my initial concern in any assault case is the protection of future victims because no one can guarantee that the accused will no longer prey. In this particular case, because the alleged act happened 12 years ago and there have been no additional accusations since, I’m comfortable with the investigation playing out while Nik continues to skate and earn his living, especially if his access to underage and socializing are limited. I’ve no idea if this is in place but even if not, unless another accusation comes to light, I’m good with the investigation process going forward under the current conditions.

But … if another person steps forward with additional accusations then a temporary suspension until the investigations are final is well justified in my opinion. FWIW

 

[Prancer]

Let's see, in this thread we have people stating that rape is a "mistake" that happened once and thus his career should not be destroyed:

@fsfann wrote:

We had ONE person say that--and PEOPLE in the thread, including me, called him out on it.

That's what happens when you take an untenable position.

And that position is not one of the accusations you lobbed against people here in your post.

 

[fsfann]

Let's see, in this thread we have people stating that rape is a "mistake" that happened once and thus his career should not be destroyed:

@fsfann wrote:

If you want to quote me, perhaps try reading it again. "..and I have no reason to believe that it didn't" is actually what I said. My point was that we are very quick to circle the wagons around someone who is accused. The hard part with SA is that it is much more difficult to prove than other things such as car accidents, murders etc. Of course SA is traumatic for the victim, and I have no sympathy for someone who does this to another human being... But just imagine for a second if the accused in this case can prove he was in another country at the time of this whole SA happening?? What recourse does he have at this point? And again... I agree that the likelihood of him being guilty is high.

I also would like to raise one thing, one last time. There have been accusations of SA with Justin Trudeau and a former student that he taught. Why is everyone on this page not calling for him to be removed after this accusation (along with another one, where "she experienced things differently than I did" ~J. Trudeau). We know that hush money was paid, so I guess that "rights the wrong" in this case???

 

[fsfann]

We had ONE person say that--and PEOPLE in the thread, including me, called him out on it.

That's what happens when you take an untenable position.

Untenable until the accused is found innocent. Because that does actually happen sometimes.

 

[Prancer]

There have been accusations of SA with Justin Trudeau and a former student that he taught. Why is everyone on this page not calling for him to be removed after this accusation

Because he isn't a skater?

If you want to talk about Justin Trudeau, start a thread.

Untenable until the accused is found innocent. Because that does actually happen sometimes.

Sometimes it does. But that isn't the hole you dug for yourself. YOU argued that one incident shouldn't destroy a person's life.

There is, in that statement, an actual presumption of guilt.

Again, I think it would be a good idea for people--at least some people--to take a step back for a couple of days.

 

[skatingguy]

Untenable until the accused is found innocent. Because that does actually happen sometimes.

You understand that no one is ever found innocent, and in this case there is no criminal proceeding.