Keeping Track of Criminal Cases & SafeSport Suspensions in Skating

[Karen-W]

Actually, yes. I know a "victim" who happily told her friend that she slept with the guy of her dreams, and the friend wanted to go to the police with her because she considered what she was saying to be rape. I know everyone involved in the story and in fact I always thought that man was a scumbag, but even 20 years later I don’t know what to think. And at the time, this story became a revelation in my small inner circle. we started talking about what is ok and what is not ok. Many of the answers surprised me. But this story helped me build my personal boundaries differently and immediately speak up if something is not okay with me. Things that were obvious to me were not so obvious to others.

Blame the victim. How old.

No, it's not blaming the victim. There's a reason why crap like "Fifty Shades of Grey" and similar ilk are best-sellers - it is a sexual turn-on for a segment of our population. I'm not interested in getting into a discussion about the rightness or wrongness of that, nor of whether or not that's "just a normalization" of SA. It's just stating that, for some people, both men and women, they get off on stuff like the victim's very graphic description of what happened. What you think is crossing a line isn't the same for others. It seems pretty clear that @airgelaal's friends had very different views on what is and is not okay sexually.

 

[canbelto]

No, it's not blaming the victim. There's a reason why crap like "Fifty Shades of Grey" and similar ilk are best-sellers - it is a sexual turn-on for a segment of our population. I'm not interested in getting into a discussion about the rightness or wrongness of that, nor of whether or not that's "just a normalization" of SA. It's just stating that, for some people, both men and women, they get off on stuff like the victim's very graphic description of what happened. What you think is crossing a line isn't the same for others. It seems pretty clear that @airgelaal's friends had very different views on what is and is not okay sexually.

BDSM is severely misunderstood by the general populace. It's based on consent actually and an agreement between two parties about limits and boundaries. In no universe would what Nik did be "okay" even in a BDSM relationship. There was no consent. It wasn't even date rape. It was flat out rape.

 

[Wyliefan]

I think everyone who read that USA Today account can agree that the victim very emphatically stated that she did NOT want what happened.

 

[Karen-W]

BDSM is severely misunderstood by the general populace. It's based on consent actually and an agreement between two parties about limits and boundaries. In no universe would what Nik did be "okay" even in a BDSM relationship. There was no consent. It wasn't even date rape. It was flat out rape.

I think everyone who read that USA Today account can agree that the victim very emphatically stated that she did NOT want what happened.

And nowhere in @airgelaal's post was she talking about the allegation against Nik but instead she was referencing the situation with her friend.

 

[nlloyd]

And nowhere in @airgelaal's post was she talking about the allegation against Nik but instead she was referencing the situation with her friend.

Yes, that is true, but in my opinion, it is best discussed in a different thread, perhaps in PI. In the context of this thread, the accuser was very clear about the non-consensual nature of the event. It took courage for her to come forward with these allegations. Discussing them in relation to consent in more extreme forms of BDSM muddies the water and seems disrespectful.

 

[airgelaal]

Yes, that is true, but in my opinion, it is best discussed in a different thread, perhaps in PI. In the context of this thread, the accuser was very clear about the non-consensual nature of the event. It took courage for her to come forward with these allegations. Discussing them in relation to consent in more extreme forms of BDSM muddies the water and seems disrespectful.

This thread started 5 years ago and not with Nick's story

 

[Debbie S]

This thread started 5 years ago and not with Nick's story

Yes, and per the title, the purpose was to discuss criminal cases and SafeSport (and similar orgs) complaints on abuse and misconduct in skating. Not BDSM.

 

[VGThuy]

Let’s not pretend the Nikolaj story hasn’t inspired the latest rounds of defenses and pretend we’re just partaking in an intellectual exercise because there are clearly very strong emotions that are inspiring such posts. This story is why this thread has been popping for the last few days and people brought up the specific acts of people liking Sorenenson’s post which has further poster engagement. This is a game I refuse to engage in.

 

[her grace]

But given that IAM has branded itself as a school focused on the well-being of its athletes, no tolerance for abuse, even posting a code of conduct on its website, the head coach publicly supporting a student accused of sexual assault (with matter unresolved/pending) doesn't give a good impression.

Apparently, that branding was PR puff. When the rubber meets the road, they side with their male student.

 

[airgelaal]

Yes, and per the title, the purpose was to discuss criminal cases and SafeSport (and similar orgs) complaints on abuse and misconduct in skating. Not BDSM.

In my case, it was that the girl didn't say no. But many reasonably believed that she was in a vulnerable position and could not openly say no. No one knows what would have happened if she had said no. Perhaps it wouldn't have stopped him. Or maybe he wouldn't have done anything.
And this is one of the reasons why I’m not very comfortable watching couples on and off the ice. We all know stories where skaters were really afraid to say no.

 

[once_upon]

Over last few days, I dont think I've named Nik, by name, or if Nik, by name, was or was not guilty. I have said the graphic detail of rape was very believable. I have said that reasons set forth as a night of drinking is not a defense. I have said that victims are believable.

I did asked if (and here I did use the name "Nik Public Citizen") this case was being treated the same as someone not named a skater. I could be wrong about posting history, I don't always remember what I post. I do know, like others, my postings reflect my personal interactions with victims. Our points of view are reflective of our life experiences.

I've said people are entitled to their opinions to publicly like a post. I've also said they need to live with that action.

I've also said those who are the face of an organization like I-AM should be careful how they word any statement. Something that reflects support for xxxx and xxxxx AND the victim and are awaiting the findings of an investigation.

I get that M-F would want to publicly support a student/colleague but as successful as I-AM is, she really gave up the M-F the person. Her personal opinion carries much more weight, and can be construed as a statement from the organization not her.

Yes, there is a small percentage of people who participate in BM-S activities. Some who enjoy a rape-love relationship. Yes, there is a percentage of the population who enjoy reading it. Are there indications that this filing includes any of those activities?

Social Media makes it extremely easy to do an action without thinking about the long term effects of that action.

Like or don't like - but be ready to defend your choice. Do I always do that? Of course not. But actions have consequences.

 

[Jenny]

OK I've stayed out of this one because I don't know all the details, and for that matter only the victim and perpetrator know what really happened. However, I've seen multiple references here to to the notion that the details described in the Brennan article (which I have not read) would indicate that the allegations are true. There are other possibilities.

I know of a case in my hometown where the details were part of the case. As it turned out though, one crucial detail was false - the name of the man who assaulted the girl. When first encouraged/pushed to talk about it and report it, she was scared to name a close family friend, so instead named a more public figure, then changed her story later - after the falsely accused's name and reputation had been publicly ruined.

Secondly, as noted by some, there's a lot of easily accessible fiction and true crime out there, and the concept of copycat perpetrators is not only storytelling fodder, it actually happens. Stands to reason that there can be copycat victims too - in other words details of the crime might have been lifted, consciously or unconsciously, from other sources. Now, if those details were specific to the perpetrator (ie a scar not readily visible to most) or perhaps the location/timing then that's one thing, but specific to the incident doesn't necessarily "prove" that it's real.

There's also the consideration that the victim's story could be a hybrid of truth and not truth - because as can happen, when someone really wants to be believed they might add extra details to be heard, and even come to believe them themselves.

I really hope this victim finds justice and can move on with her life as best as possible, and that if the accused is proven guilty that he pays the full price for his crime. I also hope that even if this case is limited to one incident, that by coming forward other victims gain courage to do so as well, and hopefully take us one more step into a world where no one has to go through this.

 

[platniumangel]

OK I've stayed out of this one because I don't know all the details, and for that matter only the victim and perpetrator know what really happened. However, I've seen multiple references here to to the notion that the details described in the Brennan article (which I have not read) would indicate that the allegations are true. There are other possibilities.

I know of a case in my hometown where the details were part of the case. As it turned out though, one crucial detail was false - the name of the man who assaulted the girl. When first encouraged/pushed to talk about it and report it, she was scared to name a close family friend, so instead named a more public figure, then changed her story later - after the falsely accused's name and reputation had been publicly ruined.

Secondly, as noted by some, there's a lot of easily accessible fiction and true crime out there, and the concept of copycat perpetrators is not only storytelling fodder, it actually happens. Stands to reason that there can be copycat victims too - in other words details of the crime might have been lifted, consciously or unconsciously, from other sources. Now, if those details were specific to the perpetrator (ie a scar not readily visible to most) or perhaps the location/timing then that's one thing, but specific to the incident doesn't necessarily "prove" that it's real.

There's also the consideration that the victim's story could be a hybrid of truth and not truth - because as can happen, when someone really wants to be believed they might add extra details to be heard, and even come to believe them themselves.

I really hope this victim finds justice and can move on with her life as best as possible, and that if the accused is proven guilty that he pays the full price for his crime. I also hope that even if this case is limited to one incident, that by coming forward other victims gain courage to do so as well, and hopefully take us one more step into a world where no one has to go through this.

The article says the victim was a skater herself and now a coach - I doubt this is a case of mistaken identity. Also, even right now he is not some “prominent figure” or celebrity. I don’t think being ranked #2 or #3 in Canada makes him very well known. He certainly was even less prominent 12 years ago before he started skating with Laurence.

 

[once_upon]

All the reasons you listed @Jenny are reasons that organizations like I-AM and the individual face of that or similar organizations should defer to the investigation process. Using Public Relations 101 principles.

Brennen's article is very descriptive. I go back to, whether or not you like her reporting, she knows that she needs to carefully write articles to avoid lawsuits. I'm sure her readership would skyrocket if she printed rumors without collaboration of some of the report. But that is not her style, at least in my opinion.

When people have a beloved famous person who is accused of a crime that falls into a he said-she said scenario, it is easy to do excuses. We.just.cant imagine our friend or admired person is guilty of a crime.

Sometimes - like with the Nassar case - investigations or complaints are so slow or ignored, that victim or victims feel to get heard they need to go public. Sometimes a victim knows they arent the only one and being the first to file opens the door to others. But only if others know the first has been filed.

People also want to believe that if rape occurs, the victim would report it early rather than later. Or if they didn't file a report immediately the report is out of revenge rather than truth.

Everyone has an outcome they want to see happen. Everyone has an opinion of what happened.

Unfortunately we do not live in a Luke and Laura world https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luke_and_Laura

Victims rarely fall in love with rapists.

Pair or dance or student/coach relationships can but not overwhelming result in a love relationship if the male is the dominant partner. Coaching is a true dominant relationship.

 

[canbelto]

OK I've stayed out of this one because I don't know all the details, and for that matter only the victim and perpetrator know what really happened. However, I've seen multiple references here to to the notion that the details described in the Brennan article (which I have not read) would indicate that the allegations are true. There are other possibilities.

I know of a case in my hometown where the details were part of the case. As it turned out though, one crucial detail was false - the name of the man who assaulted the girl. When first encouraged/pushed to talk about it and report it, she was scared to name a close family friend, so instead named a more public figure, then changed her story later - after the falsely accused's name and reputation had been publicly ruined.

Secondly, as noted by some, there's a lot of easily accessible fiction and true crime out there, and the concept of copycat perpetrators is not only storytelling fodder, it actually happens. Stands to reason that there can be copycat victims too - in other words details of the crime might have been lifted, consciously or unconsciously, from other sources. Now, if those details were specific to the perpetrator (ie a scar not readily visible to most) or perhaps the location/timing then that's one thing, but specific to the incident doesn't necessarily "prove" that it's real.

Sorry, but the statistics do not bear this out. The overwhelming majority of SA accusations are true. They are underembellished if anything, because victims feel so much shame. They are underreported. Most perpetrators get away with it. Those are just facts.

It's crazy how if someone is murdered, we never say "oh but he shouldn't have gone out at night." But if a woman is raped, the armchair quarterbacking is wild. "She shouldn't have been drinking at a party."

Another thing is the victim is a member of the skating community. She very likely knows many people at IAM, considering how small the skating world is. IAM members probably know who she is, just based on the descriptions in the articles. Them liking Nik's post IS an attempt to silence the victim.

 

[Jenny]

Sorry, but the statistics do not bear this out. The overwhelming majority of SA accusations are true. They are underembellished if anything, because victims feel so much shame. They are underreported. Most perpetrators get away with it. Those are just facts.

I know all that. But there's a difference between a majority and 100%. People who are wrongfully accused can have their lives ruined through no fault of their own, and that's why there need to be diligent - and compassionate - processes in place to ensure that consequences are based on facts, not just the idea that since the majority are correct then every person accused must be guilty.

Again, I'm not talking specifically about this case, just adding to the larger conversation.

 

[overedge]

From today's (Toronto) Globe and Mail - story on the withdrawal, including quotes from a statement by Skate Canada.

Interesting that SC is pointing out that it's not necessary to compete at Canadians to be sent to Worlds.

Canadian figure skating duo Soerensen and Beaudry withdraw from nationals amid allegations

Canada’s Office of the Sport Integrity Commissioner is reportedly investigating Sorensen over an alleged 2012 sexual assault of an American figure skating coach and former skater

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[Wyliefan]

From today's (Toronto) Globe and Mail - story on the withdrawal, including quotes from a statement by Skate Canada.

Interesting that SC is pointing out that it's not necessary to compete at Canadians to be sent to Worlds.

Canadian figure skating duo Soerensen and Beaudry withdraw from nationals amid allegations

Canada’s Office of the Sport Integrity Commissioner is reportedly investigating Sorensen over an alleged 2012 sexual assault of an American figure skating coach and former skater

www.theglobeandmail.com

Thanks. It's paywalled -- could you please give us the gist?

 

[marbri]

Thanks. It's paywalled -- could you please give us the gist?

It's not paywalled for me. I don't know where the full statement is but the three quotes in the article attributed to Skate Canada are:

“Skate Canada is complying with any and all provisional measures that have been imposed by Abuse-Free Sport’s director of sanctions and outcomes (DSO) regarding this case,” Skate Canada said Wednesday in a statement.


“It is also important to note that there is an ongoing investigation process which is subject to confidentiality requirements.”


“Missing the Canadian national skating championships does not impact an athlete’s ability to be selected for future events,” Skate Canada said in its statement."

I don't know how interesting that is in and of itself however because it will also apply to Lajoie/Lagha and applied to Gilles/Poirier last year. And others before in other years.

The article is just about FB/S withdrawing and why.

 

[overedge]

Thanks @marbri - it wasn't paywalled for me either, so maybe it's a geographic issue. @Wyliefan you could try the link in private browsing and see if that works.

I know that SC has sent other skaters to Worlds who haven't been at Canadians, but if FB/S withdrew because their presence would be a "distraction", I'm wondering if they're going to be any less of a distraction at other competitions.

 

[BlueRidge]

Thanks @marbri - it wasn't paywalled for me either, so maybe it's a geographic issue. @Wyliefan you could try the link in private browsing and see if that works.

Not paywalled for me, so I'd say try a different browser.

 

[marbri]

Thanks @marbri - it wasn't paywalled for me either, so maybe it's a geographic issue. @Wyliefan you could try the link in private browsing and see if that works.

I know that SC has sent other skaters to Worlds who haven't been at Canadians, but if FB/S withdrew because their presence would be a "distraction", I'm wondering if they're going to be any less of a distraction at other competitions.

Only time will tell. But having this all breaking the week leading into Nationals is different to Worlds which is 3-4 months away.
Will depend on how this all plays out and where the investigation is, obviously if it's complete and not in his favour I don't see the team at Worlds.

 

[Prancer]

Sorry, but the statistics do not bear this out. The overwhelming majority of SA accusations are true.

This is true. But it is also true that there are false reports. The statistics say that as well.

The National Sexual Violence Resource Center puts the false report rate at 2 percent to 10 percent (as you cited earlier). On average, there are 463,634 reported cases of sexual assault in the US every year according to RAINN. Unless my math is wrong, this means that anywhere from 9,272 to 46,363 false accusations are made in the average year. That is indeed a much smaller number than the number of reports, and a much smaller number than what is believed to be the total number of sexual assaults in any given year. But I kind of suspect that if I said "There are anywhere from 9,272 to 46,363 reports of X in the US in any given year," people might think that was a substantial number of cases.

I can, if necessary, probably track down some posts arguing that similar numbers of other kinds of cases are major societal problems. I am pretty sure I recall some specific posts.

So yes, SA is vastly underreported and yes, the overwhelming majority of SA reports are true. Those are facts. But the facts are also that while false reports are statistically rare, there are still a lot of them.

This does not make anyone more or less guilty of SA; statistics do not apply to individuals. But if you are going to use statistics to make an argument, it seems to me that you should use them in a way that accurately represents those statistics.

 

[Private Citizen]

The facts are:
1. Only 2-10% of accusations of SA are false.
2. SA is severely underreported
3. SA is severely underpunished
4. SA is notoriously difficult to prosecute because of the stigma against the accuser, and also because of jury prejudice
5. If this account is true, Nik raped a woman. He didn't drunkenly grope her (which is disgusting and illegal, but on a slightly different level). He raped her.

Just FYI: none of the above statements is a fact.

Rephrase 1 to "best estimates from research suggest 2-10% of sexual assaults are underreported false (ETA: correcting my typo), and you may have a fact.
Take out "severely" and you may have a fact.
Three is straight-up opinion (no matter how much I might agree with it).
Four is opinion, although you could probably come up with similar factual statements if you disconnected the statements and drew upon research.
Five is a biased statement, although a rephrase to "The behavior the victim described would constitute rape" might be a factual, neutral statement.

Sorry, but the statistics do not bear this out. The overwhelming majority of SA accusations are true. They are underembellished if anything, because victims feel so much shame. They are underreported. Most perpetrators get away with it. Those are just facts.

Fact, fact, opinion, fact, speculation.

I welcome all opinions, but let's please not call opinion facts.

 

[nlloyd]

Just FYI: none of the above statements is a fact.

Rephrase 1 to "best estimates from research suggest 2-10% of sexual assaults are underreported," and you may have a fact.
Take out "severely" and you may have a fact.
Three is straight-up opinion (no matter how much I might agree with it).
Four is opinion, although you could probably come up with similar factual statements if you disconnected the statements and drew upon research.
Five is a biased statement, although a rephrase to "The behavior the victim described would constitute rape" might be a factual, neutral statement.



Fact, fact, opinion, fact, speculation.

I welcome all opinions, but let's please not call opinion facts.

I think you have made sone mistakes in your facts or perhaps you just need to provide your sources. The 2-10% figure applies to false accusations, not underreporting. If one uses RAINN as a source, out of 1000 sexual assaults in the US, only 310 are reported, meaning 690 or 69% are not. That is severe underreporting. Of the 310 per thousand that are reported only 25 perpetrators are incarcerated -- 8% in relation to reported sexual assaults and 2.5% in relation to all sexual assaults (reported and underreported). This looks like severe underpunishing to me, unless you are saying there are very large numbers of false accusations, for which you would need to provide sources (https://www.rainn.org/statistics/criminal-justice-system)

 

[nikjil]

Just FYI: none of the above statements is a fact.

Rephrase 1 to "best estimates from research suggest 2-10% of sexual assaults are underreported," and you may have a fact.

Three is straight-up opinion (no matter how much I might agree with it).

Fact. Today I finished working on the case of a man convicted of multiple rapes of his young stepdaughters. Fact at the time of the rapes he was on parole. Fact at the time of the rapes he had two prior convictions for assaults with a deadly weapon, Fact at sentencing he continued to insist the victims were liars. Fact at sentencing the female judge, without explanation, sentenced the man to a sentence 15 years under the lowest sentence guideline for an individual with his prior record who is convicted of rape. Fact, the state could have appealed the sentence because judges are required to give an explanation on the record when they depart from the sentencing guidelines in this way. Fact, the state chose not to do so. Fact this is the third case I’ve seen from this particular judge where she has under-sentenced, and I’m basing this solely on what the sentencing guidelines say not my personal opinion, sexual offenders. Fact, I regularly work on cases where minor drug dealers, chronic thieves, and orher non-violent felons get higher sentences than sexual offenders.

 

[PRlady]

Fact. Today I finished working on the case of a man convicted of multiple rapes of his young stepdaughters. Fact at the time of the rapes he was on parole. Fact at the time of the rapes he had two prior convictions for assaults with a deadly weapon, Fact at sentencing he continued to insist the victims were liars. Fact at sentencing the female judge, without explanation, sentenced the man to a sentence 15 years under the lowest sentence guideline for an individual with his prior record who is convicted of rape. Fact, the state could have appealed the sentence because judges are required to give an explanation on the record when they depart from the sentencing guidelines in this way. Fact, the state chose not to do so. Fact this is the third case I’ve seen from this particular judge where she has under-sentenced, and I’m basing this solely on what the sentencing guidelines say not my personal opinion, sexual offenders. Fact, I regularly work on cases where minor drug dealers, chronic thieves, and orher non-violent felons get higher sentences than sexual offenders.

May I ask where you are located?

 

[Prancer]

Fact. Today I finished working on the case of a man convicted of multiple rapes of his young stepdaughters. Fact at the time of the rapes he was on parole. Fact at the time of the rapes he had two prior convictions for assaults with a deadly weapon, Fact at sentencing he continued to insist the victims were liars. Fact at sentencing the female judge, without explanation, sentenced the man to a sentence 15 years under the lowest sentence guideline for an individual with his prior record who is convicted of rape. Fact, the state could have appealed the sentence because judges are required to give an explanation on the record when they depart from the sentencing guidelines in this way. Fact, the state chose not to do so. Fact this is the third case I’ve seen from this particular judge where she has under-sentenced, and I’m basing this solely on what the sentencing guidelines say not my personal opinion, sexual offenders. Fact, I regularly work on cases where minor drug dealers, chronic thieves, and orher non-violent felons get higher sentences than sexual offenders.

I realize that this is a very emotional issue for many people, but personal experiences are just that.

If you all don't want to argue about statistics, then don't. But then you (general you; not you personally) shouldn't try to use statistics to try to claim that a particular accused is guilty because most accusers are guilty.

 

[KMC]

... When the rubber meets the road, they side with their male student.

A little off topic, but that appears to be a given in almost all situations and schools in ice dance.

 

[VGThuy]

I think those who are stating the reality backed by stats are just defending their choice to believe the alleged victim in this matter and why they are less inclined to give Sorensen the benefit of the doubt. If they were questioned during voir dire and said such things, I would most likely not put them on the jury, but all people have preconceived notions and biases attorneys have to overcome because you’re never going to get a totally objective person on a jury for any major case that touches upon a bigger societal issue people are familiar with.

Since most here are just reacting to the news and giving their two cents and have no involvement in the investigation and factual findings of this investigation, then I think they’re fine taking this position for the most part so long as they don’t go crazy and start harassing parties or interfering with the investigation.

I get taking issue with the position not to give the accused the benefit of the doubt, but it happens in many other newsworthy stories where somebody is accused of a crime, especially ones that aren’t dealing with sexual assault. It’s just the way news works; you get information and then you react to it.

I personally think this position is not unreasonable given the stats, even if stats don’t apply to the individual. People are just working with what they know until more evidence becomes public… like most people; it’s just coming from a different starting position.