Keeping Track of Criminal Cases & SafeSport Suspensions in Skating

[Debbie S]

But I am deeply curious how this affects IAM and how they respond to it.

Well, Marie-France and Sam Chouinard liked Nik's IG post.

I imagine IAM is thinking the same as us here, that there will likely be no consequence due to jurisdiction/length of time passed/he-said-she-said, etc, and that everything will eventually blow over and Nik will be able to coach in their school (I think there was a post here, or maybe elsewhere, that FB/S were rumored to be joining the IAM-Ontario coaching staff when they retire).

But given that IAM has branded itself as a school focused on the well-being of its athletes, no tolerance for abuse, even posting a code of conduct on its website, the head coach publicly supporting a student accused of sexual assault (with matter unresolved/pending) doesn't give a good impression.

 

[BlueRidge]

Well, Marie-France and Sam Chouinard liked Nik's IG post.

I imagine IAM is thinking the same as us here, that there will likely be no consequence due to jurisdiction/length of time passed/he-said-she-said, etc, and that everything will eventually blow over and Nik will be able to coach in their school (I think there was a post here, or maybe elsewhere, that FB/S were rumored to be joining the IAM-Ontario coaching staff when they retire).

But given that IAM has branded itself as a school focused on the well-being of its athletes, no tolerance for abuse, even posting a code of conduct on its website, the head coach publicly supporting a student accused of sexual assault (with matter unresolved/pending) doesn't give a good impression.

What they might do when the case is resolved in the event that it does not go against Sorenson is one thing. Publicly supporting his statement that the accusation is false before the case is resolved is exactly what they should not be doing if they want a safe space in society for accusers to come forward.

 

[canbelto]

It's because no one wants to believe that the "nice guy" you work with in close quarters has such a dark side.

 

[coppertop1]

It's because no one wants to believe that the "nice guy" you work with in close quarters has such a dark side.

Yep. How many times as fans have people here had a hard time believing it when a skater is accused of something? And we don't know them. Imagine how hard it is for the people who know them to come to terms with it

 

[BlueRidge]

Yep. How many times as fans have people here had a hard time believing it when a skater is accused of something? And we don't know them. Imagine how hard it is for the people who know them to come to terms with it

At this time while the case is in process they don't need to come to terms with anything except that their behavior matters to the larger societal issue of whether sexual abuse victims can get a fair hearing so that they feel safe coming forward. All that requires is that they say nothing in public.

 

[MacMadame]

Normally I don't pay attention to who likes what on social media but I decided to look this time and I found it interesting that some skaters liked Laurence's post but not Nik's. If I were a skating world insider, that might be what I would do. I mean many people here have said how sorry they feel for Laurence even while believing the victim.

 

[canbelto]

Figure skating is also the sort of job where you spend even more time with people "working" than you would in a 9-5 job. Trips to meets, parties, same hotels, very intense training schedule. So you probably feel as if you "know" people more than you would in a regular office job.

It's just like how with John Coughlin a bunch of skaters were convinced that he would never.

 

[kosjenka]

There are those in skating community who called Piper Gilles a hero bc she liked tweets by Ashley Wagner. Thats it. Linking A tweet makes one a moral example and make another rape apologist.

I cannot with this.

 

[overedge]

IMO these are different situations. A skater supporting another skater by liking their Tweet is one thing. A coach and skating school administrator - who is responsible for the safety and well-being of every skater who trains at their rink - liking a Tweet by a student accused of sexual assault is another thing altogether.

I understand that the IAM folks may feel sorry for Nik in his current situation, but I also agree that their public actions have implications beyond their relationship with him. Expressing their support to him privately would have been the more appropriate action.

 

[tony]

IMO these are different situations. A skater supporting another skater by liking their Tweet is one thing. A coach and skating school administrator - who is responsible for the safety and well-being of every skater who trains at their rink - liking a Tweet by a student accused of sexual assault is another thing altogether.

I understand that the IAM folks may feel sorry for Nik in his current situation, but I also agree that their public actions have implications beyond their relationship with him. Expressing their support to him privately would have been the more appropriate action.

Such as what? People on the internet that they've never met making sure those people know how disgusted they are with them? Maybe unfollowing and vowing to never support them ever again? Booing them at the next competition they attend?

This is the kind of stuff I referenced in a very early post and the supposed 'name of the game' with social media these days, and I'm curious to know what a liked Tweet or Instagram post implications would be.

 

[Debbie S]

Such as what? People on the internet that they've never met making sure those people know how disgusted they are with them? Maybe unfollowing and vowing to never support them ever again? Booing them at the next competition they attend?

This is the kind of stuff I referenced in a very early post and the supposed 'name of the game' with social media these days, and I'm curious to know what a liked Tweet or Instagram post implications would be.

By announcing their support for Nik's statement of denial, they are indicating that they believe he is innocent before the investigation concludes. That implies that they don't support potential assault victims coming forward if it involves one of their skaters.

Aside from the issues Blue Ridge noted, I would imagine there is some sort of ethics code for Canadian coaches, similar to PSA/USFS with SafeSport, requiring that they will support the reporting and investigative process for assault/abuse. A violation of coaching ethics could be serious (not that anything would happen, but on paper, it doesn't look good).

 

[tony]

By announcing their support for Nik's statement of denial, they are indicating that they believe he is innocent before the investigation concludes. That implies that they don't support potential assault victims coming forward if it involves one of their skaters.

They haven't announced anything, though. It's a liked Tweet/Instagram post. They didn't shove their views down anyone's throats. If and when an investigation concludes with findings either way, they can choose to elaborate on that if they so choose, or potentially become another Dalilah Sappenfield.

Aside from the issues Blue Ridge noted, I would imagine there is some sort of ethics code for Canadian coaches, similar to PSA/USFS with SafeSport, requiring that they will support the reporting and investigative process for assault/abuse. A violation of coaching ethics could be serious (not that anything would happen, but on paper, it doesn't look good).

Herein lies a problem in my opinion. I'm almost certain they are respecting the investigative process. Nik's post literally says "I will continue to fully cooperate with OSIC's investigation". What if that's the part people 'liked'? What if it was the part of withdrawing so that there is not a distraction placed on others? Of course those are not extremely likely to be the sole purpose of the like, but we don't know that. Also, people are more than forgiving for Laurence speaking her 'truth' here. It's a hard spot to be in.

 

[VGThuy]

I always figured when you like or otherwise show support for a post, you kind of endorse the whole message. You can’t “line-item veto” it, that’s why whatever I like on social media are innocuous things or messages that I tend to agree wholesale. On a message board, I am more able to have a conversation so I can support things more on a more selective way and then express and expand on that with a quote and direct-reply function.

 

[tony]

I always figured when you like show support for a post, you kind of endorse the whole message. You can’t “line-item veto” it, that’s why whatever I like on social media are innocuous things or messages that I tend to agree wholesale. On a message board, I am more able to have a conversation so I can support things more piecemeal and expand on that with a quote and direct-reply function.

I hear you, but I'm also not willing to go through lists of who did what and then decide that they are screaming his absolute innocence because of a like or even why they liked it past minimally supporting someone close to them. I'm also perfectly fine with Laurence speaking her truth as she knows it while respecting that an investigation will follow. If it weren't someone as well-liked as Laurence, I'm not sure that her statement would have been greeted with the otherwise neutral reactions as they seem to be so far.

I don't like when people (and yes, I'm referring to FSU here- not skating internet) make comments on how this or that person liked X post, still likes X Russian skaters posts, still didn't unfollow X skater like Cipres, etc, as if that makes them terrible people. As you mentioned in an earlier post, people here may have very strong opinions about these things because of their own experiences, but IMO it A) still doesn't make the defendant guilty from the start and B) doesn't mean that everyone else has to follow suit with the assumption of guilt on the defendant and/or give up on them right away.

What does bother me are the comments such as 'He always looked like a creep to me', 'He probably knows he's going to get away with it', 'This probably wasn't the only time he did it' as being specific to Nik- from people that don't know anything about him otherwise.

 

[canbelto]

Many predators are very manipulative and great at hoodwinked ppl.

 

[VGThuy]

I hear you, but I'm also not willing to go through lists of who did what and then decide that they are screaming his absolute innocence because of a like or even why they liked it past minimally supporting someone close to them. I'm also perfectly fine with Laurence speaking her truth as she knows it while respecting that an investigation will follow. If it weren't someone as well-liked as Laurence, I'm not sure that her statement would have been greeted with the otherwise neutral reactions as they seem to be so far.

I don't like when people (and yes, I'm referring to FSU here- not skating internet) make comments on how this or that person liked X post, still likes X Russian skaters posts, still didn't unfollow X skater like Cipres, etc, as if that makes them terrible people. As you mentioned in an earlier post, people here may have very strong opinions about these things because of their own experiences, but IMO it A) still doesn't make the defendant guilty from the start and B) doesn't mean that everyone else has to follow suit with the assumption of guilt on the defendant and/or give up on them right away.

What does bother me are the comments such as 'He always looked like a creep to me', 'He probably knows he's going to get away with it', 'This probably wasn't the only time he did it' as being specific to Nik- from people that don't know anything about him otherwise.

I think you might need to stop focusing so much of how others act because there’s nothing we can really do about it in that you can’t brow-beat or shame people to react or act a certain way that you approve of, which your post seems to establish is the only correct way.

Like your comment questioning the motivations of people who have been more neutral towards Laurence and less neutral towards Nikolaj even though there are clear distinctions between their positions in this matter and the substance of their message. If Laurence said Nikolaj was clearly not guilty of the charges, I bet it wouldn’t have go over as neutrally, but that’s just my supposition and not the point… just that it’s another adversarial-tinged post you’ve made.

Of course, you can make a comment showing your disapproval for a stated opinion here and those that are reaching defamatory levels certainly do inspire responses that call for more level-headed posts or less suppositions.

What I don’t get is going on about it and being that bothered because nobody is going to change how they take somebody based on a situation they found out about unless they make the change themselves.

The way we react is personal and subjective thing and none of us are new to people having visceral reactions that may seem a bit much or an emotionally-based overreaction even before social media. People used to call their local stations up the wazoo to complain about programming, write to the editors of magazines/newspapers/newsletters, throw tomatoes at soap box speakers/performers… I mean the people allegedly rioted on the streets to express their discontent after Stravinsky debuted “The Rite of Spring”. Even if that story wasn’t true, we all know people reacting and expressing these sorts of opinions is common. To bring FSU back to the equation, look at the Royalty Thread…

 

[Vagabond]

Of course people didn't riot at the premiere of The Rite of Spring. They all went home and whined about it on MySpace.

 

[tony]

I think you might need to stop focusing so much of how others act because there’s nothing we can really do about it in that you can’t brow-beat or shame people to react or act a certain way that you approve of, which your post seems to establish is the only correct way.

This is venturing into so much off-topic PM stuff, but since it's addressed to me in the open, I 100% have a problem with people otherwise or flat-out saying that the man (not even the defendant, but the man) is always guilty because of X, Y, and Z, and sorry if I have brought focus on that as a dissenting opinion. You have made it known that you have a law degree in other posts here, so I would feel (and hope you feel) that the correct way is actually an investigation and a court of law.

I also 100% have a problem with people saying the comments I referenced above about Nik as it pertains to someone they have never met and know nothing about besides watching their skating. I wouldn't want to be accused of something and then have the posters on FSU who tend to often have problems with what I say all of a sudden gang up and say "Oh I could see that coming a mile away" "I knew it!" or whatever else. And they 'know' me more than Nikolaj Sorensen.

Of course, you can make a comment showing your disapproval for a stated opinion here and those that are reaching defamatory levels certainly do inspire responses that call for more level-headed posts or less suppositions.

What I don’t get is going on about it and being that bothered because nobody is going to change how they take somebody based on a situation they found out about unless they make the change themselves.

As you have written, people all over this board and in life complain about things that bother them (Royalty Thread as you said, politics, LGBTQ rights that have nothing to do with them personally, etc). When I get quoted here either directly or by subtle 'people are saying' mentions, I tend to reply and double down or point out other things that bother me. I replied earlier because I commented upthread about this 'look at the skaters who liked X post' stuff that always comes up. There are instances of people complaining about the same things repeatedly all over the place, and also plenty of people in this thread who are suggesting their way is the only way and everyone else is... an enabler. What's the difference? I've complained about underrotated jumps for far longer than IJS has been around, and there have been people that take it extremely personally when I comment on their favorite skater, as if that's the only skater who has ever experienced my <<, <, and 'e' wrath

No one is ever guilty of something until they are proved innocent. That's not an opinion- that's the foundation of law. Arguing that the system is unfair or unbalanced is a different story. Stating opinions about someone as if they were known facts-- also just opinions that no one has to agree with, and can also call out. Unless we are all supposed to just agree with each other all the time

 

[puglover]

Aside from our personal experiences and reactions, what kind of world do we want to live in and leave to our children and grandchildren. Most women of my generation can recall an experience where they were in an uncomfortable sexual situation and terrified about where it could end up. We know over 60 women have spoken out about Bill Cosby and yet he wants to tour again and his wife and, I believe, his female costar, still support him and who knows how many others. But do we really want to live in a society that a single allegation of an assault 20 years ago is accepted at face value and the accused and their family's life is destroyed? I definitely don't!

 

[VGThuy]

This is venturing into so much off-topic PM stuff, but since it's addressed to me in the open, I 100% have a problem with people otherwise or flat-out saying that the man (not even the defendant, but the man) is always guilty because of X, Y, and Z, and sorry if I have brought focus on that as a dissenting opinion. You have made it known that you have a law degree in other posts here, so I would feel (and hope you feel) that the correct way is actually an investigation and a court of law.

I also 100% have a problem with people saying the comments I referenced above about Nik as it pertains to someone they have never met and know nothing about besides watching their skating. I wouldn't want to be accused of something and then have the posters on FSU who tend to often have problems with what I say all of a sudden gang up and say "Oh I could see that coming a mile away" "I knew it!" or whatever else. And they 'know' me more than Nikolaj Sorensen.

As you have written, people all over this board and in life complain about things that bother them (Royalty Thread as you said, politics, LGBTQ rights that have nothing to do with them personally, etc). When I get quoted here either directly or by subtle 'people are saying' mentions, I tend to reply and double down or point out other things that bother me. I replied earlier because I commented upthread about this 'look at the skaters who liked X post' stuff that always comes up. There are instances of people complaining about the same things repeatedly all over the place, and also plenty of people in this thread who are suggesting their way is the only way and everyone else is... an enabler. What's the difference? I've complained about underrotated jumps for far longer than IJS has been around, and there have been people that take it extremely personally when I comment on their favorite skater, as if that's the only skater who has ever experienced my <<, <, and 'e' wrath

No one is ever guilty of something until they are proved innocent. That's not an opinion- that's the foundation of law. Arguing that the system is unfair or unbalanced is a different story. Stating opinions about someone as if they were known facts-- also just opinions that no one has to agree with, and can also call out. Unless we are all supposed to just agree with each other all the time

Nobody said the American legal system states that people are guilty until proven innocent, so arguing that point misses the point in that people are expressing their takes that are outside of the American legal system since they aren’t bound by it as they are not part of the criminal justice system or even the organization that is investigating this particular charge and have no effect on the official decision that will determine Sorensen’s fate.

The American or any modern western criminal justice system provides due process in the system, it never stopped people outside of it from airing their judgments and opinions on cases they’ve paid attention to. How many people still think OJ Simpson is guilty? That Michael Jackson committed the acts he was sued for? That Johnny Depp wasn’t defamed by Amber Heard (US case)? That Amber Heard did defame Johnny Depp (UK case)? That Charles Manson was guilty before the verdict? That Lizzie Borden did chop up her father and stepmother? Any story that comes out on the news when a suspect was captured and pled not guilty? It happens all of the time without issue. To adopt the method of shoving the mirror on people’s faces, the rate of people calling for due process and to be more rational seem to happen on a disproportionate rate for cases of rape and sexual assault, especially when the victim is a woman and the suspect is a man.

And of course, I never said we were supposed to agree all of the time. I don’t know how any good intentioned reading would have gotten that from my post. The only reason I’m responding is because you seemed somewhat bothered by the reactions you’ve been getting for your posts and have taken up space in your posts to verbalize as such. And you’ve posted quite a bit so anybody who reads this thread has to read it as I only have a handful of people on ignore and you’re not one of them and, as I’ve said before, I’ve found your posts to be worth reading based on my 20+ years conversing with you online (can we believe we’re that old?). I just wanted to clear up why your posts have been receiving such posts that you’ve mentioned on a number of occasions and how your replies may perpetuate the issue with some of the argumentative language you’ve chosen to use. Obviously, you have a different take and you think it’s everybody else. That’s fair.

 

[overedge]

By announcing their support for Nik's statement of denial, they are indicating that they believe he is innocent before the investigation concludes. That implies that they don't support potential assault victims coming forward if it involves one of their skaters.

Aside from the issues Blue Ridge noted, I would imagine there is some sort of ethics code for Canadian coaches, similar to PSA/USFS with SafeSport, requiring that they will support the reporting and investigative process for assault/abuse. A violation of coaching ethics could be serious (not that anything would happen, but on paper, it doesn't look good).

Here is the Coaching Assn of Canada ethics code. The CAC runs the coach training program that all sport assn coaches in Canada have to complete to work as coaches. https://coach.ca/sites/default/files/2023-08/Code-of-Conduct-and-Ethics-Aug2023-EN.pdf

 

[overedge]

Aside from our personal experiences and reactions, what kind of world do we want to live in and leave to our children and grandchildren. Most women of my generation can recall an experience where they were in an uncomfortable sexual situation and terrified about where it could end up. We know over 60 women have spoken out about Bill Cosby and yet he wants to tour again and his wife and, I believe, his female costar, still support him and who knows how many others. But do we really want to live in a society that a single allegation of an assault 20 years ago is accepted at face value and the accused and their family's life is destroyed? I definitely don't!

If the allegation involves SA, I think it's prudent to take it seriously and to expect or require the alleged assaulter to be removed from situations that might endanger others - until the allegation is resolved. A complaint has been made, the process is underway.

 

[airgelaal]

Do I understand correctly that if someone is accused of something, then he should be treated like a leper? Even if it's family and friends?
I probably lived my life in vain if there is no one next to me who always believes in me no matter what. And it won’t matter whether I’m a “criminal” or a “victim”.

 

[overedge]

It's not just "something", it's a violent SA. It's behaviour that could endanger others if it happens again.

If you're friends or family, you can choose to keep associating with the person. People in other settings don't always have that option, and their safety also needs to be respected.

 

[VGThuy]

Do I understand correctly that if someone is accused of something, then he should be treated like a leper? Even if it's family and friends?
I probably lived my life in vain if there is no one next to me who always believes in me no matter what. And it won’t matter whether I’m a “criminal” or a “victim”.

Like most things in life, people can choose to do what they want, but there will always be reactions when one chooses to support those who are suspected of committing heinous crimes. This is nothing new. Whether people should be more understanding is another topic and is asking for a huge change in human behavior that has been exhibited forever. Of course, that shouldn’t stop us from effectively trying to invoke that change, but the word is “effectively”. Also, we should all think about all the times we’ve made judgments about all kinds of things before letting due process play out, and still hold on to those when it played out in a way we don’t like.

 

[airgelaal]

It's not just "something", it's a violent SA. It's behaviour that could endanger others if it happens again.

If you're friends or family, you can choose to keep associating with the person. People in other settings don't always have that option, and their safety also needs to be respected.

But many people here and not only here aggressively condemn those who simply liked the post. The Inquisition also had good intentions.

 

[VGThuy]

But many people here and not only here aggressively condemn those who simply liked the post. The Inquisition also had good intentions.

And people standing by thinking their small acts didn’t normalize harmful behavior and attitudes that result in hurting people also thought they were acting with good intentions. All these positions can be spun. Like it or not, a “like” is an endorsement and until these social media apps can help people who like things better detail what it was about a post that they liked, it’s not unreasonable to read a “like” as a full endorsement.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I mean the people allegedly rioted on the streets to express their discontent after Stravinsky debuted “The Rite of Spring”. Even if that story wasn’t true, we all know people reacting and expressing these sorts of opinions is common.

It wasn't the music: it was the dance that sparked different audience factions to go after each other. At minimum, much yelling ensued.

If there had been a real riot, the performance wouldn't have continued to the end.

 

[Debbie S]

But many people here and not only here aggressively condemn those who simply liked the post. The Inquisition also had good intentions.

I don't think calling out public actions is "aggressively condemning" or comparable to The Inquisition. The coaches at IAM see Nik in person every day and can express their support to him face to face. Publicly endorsing his denial (which effectively says the accuser is lying/wrong) goes beyond simply supporting him, it's making a statement.

This is an org that has publicly stated their commitment to ethics/conduct/no tolerance for abuse. IMO, calling out a statement that could be seen as contradictory is fair game. No one is spying on them behind closed doors, we're talking about what they have made public.

 

[nlloyd]

But many people here and not only here aggressively condemn those who simply liked the post. The Inquisition also had good intentions.

With a violent act like sexual assault, where the life of the accuser has possibly been seriously impacted, I think it is wise at the bare minimum, not to like a post where the accuser says he is innocent. It looks like you are coming to a conclusion before the investigation has concluded, which is the same thing you are suggesting others are doing who seem to have have found him guilty prior to the investigation

I think it's important to distinguish between formulating an opinion about the accusation e.g. giving the accuser the benefit of the doubt in an initial response to accusations of sexual assault, and recognizing the importance of letting the investigation play out. The two are not mutually exclusive.

ETA If Nik does end up being guilty and the skating community has closed ranks like they did in Coughlin's case, I think that will be another nail in the coffin of figure skating fandom. Sexual assault always impacts fandom, and a culture of sexual assault even more so, but skaters and coaches being perceived as covering for each other on an ongoing basis will bring fandom to and end. Already there are those who find it difficult to keep following the sport as a result of proven cases of assault.