Keeping Track of Criminal Cases & SafeSport Suspensions in Skating

[VGThuy]

My original response had to do with mob mentality in general across the internet and the way that people immediately claim to know all the facts and shun everyone else for not doing as they do. I found it to be a relatively tame comment- And then I was greeted with stats and 'well if you want people to stop bitching about vigilantism, then....' Although I wasn't quoted, it came directly after my comment.

There are responses in this thread that paint Nik as absolutely, positively guilty by pulling statistics from websites, saying they've worked around it long enough to know brief comments to be true, saying essentially that no one ever lies about this stuff and has no reason to. And for some people here, anyone who doesn't get on board with that right away means that they don't care or they are enabling an abuser, or they post things like 'I wonder what the gender is of those posters'-- when in fact, that quote referred to 1 poster who was questioning whether it could be considered a forgivable 'mistake'.

I brought up Biden's sexual assault case not as a 'gotcha' but just to show that as much as some people say they always believe the accuser, it's simply not the case. It's still circumstantial and something like a fear of Trump getting re-elected obviously caused plenty of people to dismiss claims or just look the other way. I think that's a real problem, but was told it should be in PI.

I'm not talking about figure skating communities specifically (I don't read skating Reddit, for example) and as I mentioned above, it was a comment on the internet as a whole taking sides.

Well, seeing how I have a very different set of experiences than most people here and often get lumped lumped into the problem with 'men' in general and how I'm 'racist' or 'misogynist' or 'mansplaining' for simply having a different opinion, those people should also know I'm coming from a different place than they are. And further, just because I am a (known) man here doesn't mean I don't and won't have any experience in this specific topic. We all can be more understanding of each other and especially not assume one person had it easier than the next because of A or B situation.

Even through all of this, it still doesn't take away from the danger of automatically finding each and every defendant guilty in these cases. No matter how disappointing or frustrating the system is.

I’m not here to argue with you further. I do think your posts come off as less tame and more incendiary than you intended. Maybe your original post was worded more neutrally, but we all have history talking about this topic that may have made some want to prepare themselves, and your subsequent posts have not been very “tame” when it comes to the way you respond to other posters here. When you made the comment about expecting to be quoted, thus, acknowledging the heated responses you have received and expected to receive, you may want to assess why you may have inspired such responses. Not saying you deserve vitriol (nobody deserves that), but you can control the tone you set.

I personally agree with you regarding due process while acknowledging why some are more willing to take a harder stance when somebody is being investigated for an action of this nature and the stats that were in response to you seem to be coming from the idea that due process isn’t actually providing a fair process to crimes that historically have been associated with female victims for a large part. Yes, men are victims of sexual crimes… it’ll be stupid to argue otherwise. Yes, being a gay cis-male will make one’s experience different from a straight cis-male. Trans women, especially of color, are disproportionately victims of sexual crimes, and trans men, again especially of color, are also disproportionately represented as victims of these crimes, counting both their experiences of society perceiving them as cis-women and trans-men. When so many already think they existing process is already unfair to victims where one sex or non-cis men seem to make the vast majority of victims and have historically been so in those numbers, then calls to trust the system would be fairly met with these kinds of responses.

This is something we talk about in law school all the time and with regard to policy change proposals.

You don’t have to agree with it, but it’s also not an invitation to go off in the manner you have done, IMO. And that’s why you get the responses you may have gotten. This is why I emphasized having some consideration.

 

[Sparks]

Well said, @VGThuy. Thank you

 

[Viewer]

https://twitter.com/luazvedo/status/1742996786690638306?s=20

"...respect and kindness..." hmmmmm

 

[rfisher]

You don’t have to agree with it, but it’s also not an invitation to go off in the manner you have done, IMO. And that’s why you get the responses you may have gotten. This is why I emphasized having some consideration.

That same consideration should be emphasized to several posters on this board who seem to think their opinion/thought/feelings are the only ones that count.

 

[VGThuy]

That same consideration should be emphasized to several posters on this board who seem to think their opinion/thought/feelings are the only ones that count.

I absolutely agree, and I don’t mean to say Tony is deserving of the worst kinds of responses. We all need to be more considerate in that I don’t think anybody here thinks anybody should get off with rape, an act that Sorensen is expressly accused of committing… well, almost everyone isn’t saying that. I apologize to you @tony if it comes off that way.

It was just the part I originally quoted was something I’ve noticed you have been bringing up in a few posts in the past year or so, and the only reason I noticed is because when you post, I read. It goes to show you the esteem I hold you in. I felt from your post that this has seemed to be upsetting you for a while.

My take is that actually agree with a lot of what you say, but I don’t think it’s the message itself that can inspire some more heated responses but the manner in which the tone may have already been set, even if it was unintentional or made as a way of a preemptive strike for self-preservation due what you think is being under a barrage of negative responses every time you post.

 

[kosjenka]

The posts on FSU are still tame when compared to twitter or reddit and I am grateful for it.

Frankly, there is nothing surprising in the statements made today. The only one that would surprise me would be Sorensen admitting the accusations are true and letting the public know he will take responsibility for this. Only such statement would have surprised me.

Honestly, I am more inclined to believe there is truth in the accusation for several reasons. However, I can understand why people that have known Sorensen are inclined to side with him and his defence. I do now want to judge them for it.

 

[VGThuy]

Yeah, until Laurence actively attacks or makes offensive maneuvers towards the complainant, I am not comfortable taking Laurence Fournier Beaudry’s comments to task. If the allegations are true, then she’s also a victim who has had her world upended by these revelations. Her public statement is what I would expect from somebody in her position, and even if her descriptions of Nikolaj Sorensen can be seen as her saying he wouldn’t do what he is accused of because she knows he is “a man of integrity, respect[,] and kindness”… it is what she knows and I can’t expect her to put out a message that would be better worded than that given what she must be feeling about a man she loves and has married.

 

[Debbie S]

I don't think Laurence and Nik are married. They are a couple off the ice and from IG, it looks like they live together but I don't believe they are married or engaged.

 

[marbri]

https://twitter.com/luazvedo/status/1742996786690638306?s=20

"...respect and kindness..." hmmmmm

Already attempted earlier in this thread.

 

[Sarrie]

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this but my heart goes out to Laurence. You see, I've been in a similar situation and I know how painful it is to question basically the whole life you are living.

My husband was accused of being inappropriate (not rape but I'm not sure I should give more details) with someone who had been in our home. The difference was I was there the entirety as well as my daughters, one was even in the room at the time of the alleged incident not to mention there were a few details about the alleged incident that would have made it almost physically impossible to have occurred. DHS investigated and determined the allegation was unfounded and he was allowed to stay in the home. The DA however pursued charges. In our case the "victim" admitted to lying to multiple people and the charges were eventually dropped. That whole period of time was agony for me, my children, our family, friends and especially for my husband.

You question yourself. Your partner (even in our case where as I said I was present as were others). Your judgement. The victim and you feel horribly bad (or at least I did) for questioning them because we are (or I am) ingrained to believe the victim. In our case I questioned the whole legal system and the the phrase "innocent until proven guilty".

So my heart goes out to Laurence having lived through something similar as it is incredibly painful.

Note that I am not passing any judgement on the victim or the accused.

 

[overedge]

I realize that this press release came out last week, before two of the ice dance teams withdrew, but since it's still on the Skate Canada website, it should probably be updated. https://skatecanada.ca/2024/01/skat...an-national-skating-championships-in-calgary/

 

[pat c]

I'm not sure if this is the correct place to post this but my heart goes out to Laurence. You see, I've been in a similar situation and I know how painful it is to question basically the whole life you are living.

Thanks for sharing. We watched a cousin of my so's go thru something similar. It is painful.

 

[Viewer]

Already attempted earlier in this thread.

Pardon me if I didn't see that in the 30 some odd pages before this.

 

[marbri]

Pardon me if didn't see that in the 30 some odd pages before this.

It's not something I typically do but if you really desire it I hereby pardon you. Go forth in peace !

 

[Theatregirl1122]

It's not something I typically do but if you really desire it I hereby pardon you. Go forth in peace !

Do you do other pardons? Because my desk at work is a mess and I would love to be pardoned.


TBH, @PRlady can tell me if I’m wrong, but Laurence didn’t have a lot of good options for statements. I wonder if the best case scenario would have been to let a 3rd party (IAM, etc) announce that they were withdrawing in order to not be a distraction at the event and then they share it. Basically neutral press release style.

But I suppose they could then also have gotten heat for not saying anything themselves.

 

[MacMadame]

https://twitter.com/luazvedo/status/1742996786690638306?s=20

"...respect and kindness..." hmmmmm

Another one posting a tiny clip and claiming it shows something it does not.

I don't think Laurence and Nik are married. They are a couple off the ice and from IG, it looks like they live together but I don't believe they are married or engaged.

I thought they were engaged. But Wikipedia says no.

 

[VGThuy]

I know I’m getting old. I imagined an entire marriage between an ice dance couple I’ve been watching for many years.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I don't remember seeing an announcement/social media post of a "pop the question with a ring in hand" engagement, but I remember an interview from a while back where she said that she was learning Danish because she wanted to understand the conversations their children would be having with their father, so I assumed that meant they intended to be married eventually.

 

[The Observer]

Back to F-B&S, I am curious if this is "it" for them, or if they will try to resume their season? Their body of work is sufficient to be considered for 4CC or Worlds, and Lajoie and Lagha's unrelated withdrawal is making this event a bit of a damp squib.

Yeah, it's been a very chaotic week for Canadian ice dance with 2 of the top 3 ice dance teams withdrawing. Imagine if Piper & Paul had to withdraw as well! It's shaping up to be an odd event.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

I don't remember seeing an announcement/social media post of a "pop the question with a ring in hand" engagement, but I remember an interview from a while back where she said that she was learning Danish because she wanted to understand the conversations their children would be having with their father, so I assumed that meant they intended to be married eventually.

Not necessarily - Quebec has the highest rate of common law couples in Canada. It's quite common for people in Montreal to have children without officially marrying.

 

[PRlady]

Do you do other pardons? Because my desk at work is a mess and I would love to be pardoned.


TBH, @PRlady can tell me if I’m wrong, but Laurence didn’t have a lot of good options for statements. I wonder if the best case scenario would have been to let a 3rd party (IAM, etc) announce that they were withdrawing in order to not be a distraction at the event and then they share it. Basically neutral press release style.

But I suppose they could then also have gotten heat for not saying anything themselves.

I’m not an expert on these situations. The sentence about Nik is the only quibble, and if she didn’t include something like that, people would leap to the conclusion that she thinks he’s guilty. It’s really a no-win.

If the investigating body clears him, which seems unlikely given the specificity of the victim’s statement, they will need a sophisticated media strategy to come back to competition.

 

[skategal]

I’m not an expert on these situations. The sentence about Nik is the only quibble, and if she didn’t include something like that, people would leap to the conclusion that she thinks he’s guilty. It’s really a no-win.

If the investigating body clears him, which seems unlikely given the specificity of the victim’s statement, they will need a sophisticated media strategy to come back to competition.

They have been on my radar as a potential team to retire post-worlds in Montreal for awhile.

I suspect the plan, once they heard about the investigation, was to retire and fade into the background with Nik potentially pursuing other careers while the investigation was ongoing. The investigation is likely to take longer than March to be completed.

Due to “jurisdictional issues”, I won’t be surprised if the investigative body throws their hands up in the air and doesn’t do much with this though.

Never underestimate a government organization’s ability to give themselves an out due to jurisdictional issues.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

Due to “jurisdictional issues”, I won’t be surprised if the investigative body throws their hands up in the air and doesn’t do much with this though.

Never underestimate a government organization’s ability to give themselves an out due to jurisdictional issues.

I'm thinking the same thing. I'm also guessing that the complainant's lawyer thinks so too and that's why she spoke to Brennan.

 

[skategal]

I'm thinking the same thing. I'm also guessing that the complainant's lawyer thinks so too and that's why she spoke to Brennan.

Yes. This is my thought as well.

I also think Nik/Lolo think/know this and it informed their statements yesterday.

 

[Vagabond]

Yes. This is my thought as well.

I also think Nik/Lolo think/know this and it informed their statements yesterday.

Except that he called the accusations false. That assertion may be grounds for a defamation action if someone such as that twit on Twitter identifies the complainant, and he wouldn't be able to use a finding of a lack of jurisdiction to defend himself.

 

[her grace]

I expect them to be at 4CC, business as usual.

 

[skategal]

Except that he called the accusations false. That assertion may be grounds for a defamation action if someone such as that twit on Twitter identifies the complainant, and he wouldn't be able to use a finding of a lack of jurisdiction to defend himself.

I think Nik knows that this accusation can’t be proved either way so he feels “free” to call the accusations false without fear of recourse.

Doesn’t mean they are false of course.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

I think Nik knows that this accusation can’t be proved either way so he feels “free” to call the accusations false without fear of recourse.

Doesn’t mean they are false of course.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that if the allegation is true (and sadly I believe it is) that he either doesn't remember the incident at all or he thinks it was consensual.

 

[once_upon]

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that if the allegation is true (and sadly I believe it is) that he either doesn't remember the incident at all or he thinks it was consensual.

Or that will be his claim.

 

[Andora]

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that if the allegation is true (and sadly I believe it is) that he either doesn't remember the incident at all or he thinks it was consensual.

I'd bank on this. It's amazing what we can convince ourselves of. He may believe it as strongly as he believes the sky is blue. And with the way sexual violence against women has been treated over the years, it's not surprising that men are able to do this with ease.

I hate everything about this situation but I have no reason to not believe the victim. It will be interesting to see how FB&S proceed, if they use for continents to decide if they realistically can go to worlds, if they stay focused on worlds and try to ignore everything else etc etc.

But I am deeply curious how this affects IAM and how they respond to it.