Keeping Track of Criminal Cases & SafeSport Suspensions in Skating

[marbri]

This where it may get ugly for the accuser, if people seem to rally around the accused.

Anyone who believes there should be due process for the accused should also believe there should be due process for the accuser and hold their tongues until the process is finished.

100% agree with this. I think there should be due process for all involved. And the way this came out was not that ( eta... to clarify I am putting that on Lease/Brennan).

 

[kosjenka]

I am keeping a close eye on this on Twitter and readdit. There is a poster on Twitter, giving more details about the woman who made the reports and I sent her a message asking to remove it because I really don’t think she would want to be easily found by people who have no idea what this feels like.

 

[platniumangel]

I see no reason for the victim to make false claims after all this time. She would be in her thirties now. It has probably haunted her all these years.

Does anyone know how the investigation is to be carried out? Can they interview people, review text messaging, etc?

 

[skateblessing]

Yep, whether or not SC asked them to WD, these statements are carefully crafted to make Nik into a sympathetic figure.

And I see Guillaume has liked both posts. Given the response to the allegations against Coughlin and others, I suspect most in IAM are aligned with Laurence's statement.

I wasn´t even aware that they posted this in the feed I just thought it was a story they both posted on their IG. I did only see the screenshots and did not check IG.

That they posted it the feed for people to react both with likes and comments for the public makes everything much worse. As other say, this can really get ugly.

Honestly the way they posted it just adds more shade to the feeling about building a certain imagine.

 

[AnnM]

They both disabled comments on each of their posts on this.

 

[Debbie S]

I wasn´t even aware that they posted this in the feed I just thought it was a story they both posted on their IG. I did only see the screenshots and did not check IG.

That they posted it the feed for people to react both with likes and comments for the public makes everything much worse. As other say, this can really get ugly.

Honestly the way the posted it just adds more shade to the feeling about building a certain imagine.

It looks like they both turned off comments on the posts.

Stories expire after 24 hours, so posting it in their feed is probably better from a reach standpoint. But yes, it does effectively invite people to show support and share the posts.

 

[marbri]

I wasn´t even aware that they posted this in the feed I just thought it was a story they both posted on their IG. I did only see the screenshots and did not check IG.

That they posted it the feed for people to react both with likes and comments for the public makes everything much worse. As other say, this can really get ugly.

Honestly the way they posted it just adds more shade to the feeling about building a certain imagine.

There are no comments on either instagram post so I am assuming they are somehow turned off.

I don't see what is wrong with posting it this way. Other than those that take issue with the wording in some parts.

 

[Trillian]

Laurence is in an incredibly difficult position right now and probably hasn’t had a lot of time to absorb the details of the accusation. And if Nikolaj did what he’s accused of doing, does everyone really want to assume there’s a 100% good, healthy dynamic to his long-term romantic relationship that would put her in the best position to make a clear-eyed and rational assessment? I mean, I have no idea. But out of everyone, I’m willing to extend her a little grace for not responding perfectly. I would side-eye that statement a lot more if it came from anyone else.

 

[skateblessing]

It looks like they both turned off comments on the posts.

Stories expire after 24 hours, so posting it in their feed is probably better from a reach standpoint. But yes, it does effectively invite people to show support and share the posts.

It doesn´t really help though. You can still like it and liking Nikolaj post is a statement about support when he claims the allegations are false. I´m also afraid that people don´t understand the impact of what they are doing liking the post. This is really not helping SafeSport at all.

I´m already seen favorite skaters of mine like the post and wish I could unseen it. I´m so disappointed by them liking the post.

 

[canbelto]

Laurence is in a really difficult situation and you have no idea what the dynamics are in private. I don't judge her.

 

[MacMadame]

Barring that, I would support counseling and reasonable accommodations, including separate practice or warmup time, for anyone who may be triggered by having an accused rapist being in their presence.

Counseling sure. But exactly how would having "separate practice or warmup" work? I think it's pretty obvious that it wouldn't. Of course, it's all moot now as they won't be there. But, really, there isn't any way to mitigate the harm that having him there would have caused just like there wouldn't be any way to recompense him if he were forbidden to be there.

Ridiculous example:

Honestly, they are all ridiculous. Especially this one:

Should Grishuk and Platov have been banned over Grishuk having an affair with Zhulin?

How is SA (or other illegal behavior) involved in this at all?

The complaint may lead to a ban in Canada. As a practical matter, even without a formal ban enforceable elsewhere, his prospects would be limited. His reputation would precede him.

Unfortunately, I don't think they'd be limited enough. I agree with @skategal that he'd get enough work to make a living. (And also that I wouldn't send my kids to him and no one has ever remotely called me a helicopter parent.)

 

[VGThuy]

I don’t envy Laurence’s position at all. Saying that doesn’t negate the horror the victim went through and what she needs to brace herself for by going forward with her experience with Nikolaj.

 

[tony]

Plenty of skaters aside from Cizeron have liked one or both posts, which no doubt will bring in the haters to make lists or proclamations against said skaters. And of course both of them turned the comments off, that's not a big surprise.

No matter what would have been said, there would be a problem. I'm sure lawyers are heavily involved already and if Sorensen wouldn't have said anything claiming innocence in such a post, then just about everyone would've started the 'look, he's basically admitting it!' stuff. And Laurence spoke her truth as she knows it to be.

I still see a huge problem with people automatically assuming the defendant is guilty, even mentioning their opinion being because of things like the length of time that has passed since the incident or the brief details of the incident we got in a Brennan story. And we have a moderator here who shares my opinion but her post has not once been quoted or countered AFAIK, but I'm sure mine will be. And to be clear- I don't care if it was a man, a woman, a trans person that prefers to be called 'them' being accused of this. It's extremely dangerous territory to just presume people are guilty for crimes from the start, no matter how much a system may be against a fair process.

 

[Karen-W]

Laurence is in an incredibly difficult position right now and probably hasn’t had a lot of time to absorb the details of the accusation. And if Nikolaj did what he’s accused of doing, does everyone really want to assume there’s a 100% good, healthy dynamic to his long-term romantic relationship that would put her in the best position to make a clear-eyed and rational assessment? I mean, I have no idea. But out of everyone, I’m willing to extend her a little grace for not responding perfectly. I would side-eye that statement a lot more if it came from anyone else.

I think you're assuming she only found out when Brennan's article was published. I suppose that it is possible she was kept in the dark by whomever DL contacted at IAM back in December or when Nik was apparently notified in October but I don't think that's all too likely. She's had more time than any of us, I'm sure, to absorb the details of the accusation. Mind, I am not surprised that she is standing by him publicly at this time - it probably will take a lot longer than 1-3 months to figure out how she really feels or what she believes about the accusation.

 

[skateblessing]

Plenty of skaters aside from Cizeron have liked one or both posts, which no doubt will bring in the haters to make lists or proclamations against said skaters. And of course they turned the comments off, that's not a big surprise.

No matter what would have been said, there would be a problem. I'm sure lawyers are heavily involved already and if Sorensen wouldn't have said anything claiming innocence in such a post, then just about everyone would've started the 'look, he's basically admitting it!' stuff. And Laurence spoke her truth as she knows it to be.

I still see a huge problem with people automatically assuming the defendant is guilty, even mentioning their opinion being because of things like the length of time that has passed since the incident or the brief details of the incident we got in a Brennan story. And we have a moderator here who said the exact same thing but her post has not once been quoted or countered, but I'm sure mine will be. And to be clear- I don't care if it was a man, a woman, a trans person that prefers to be called 'them' being accused of this. It's extremely dangerous territory to just presume people are guilty for crimes from the start, no matter how much a system is against a fair process.

He could simply have said, we WD because of the other athletes at Nationals and we will not comment on the case anything before the investigation is done. That would not have been him admitting he is guilty.

 

[marbri]

I think those of us commenting that comments were turned off are in response to the poster who took issue with the way the post was made opening it up to comments. Not that we are surprised that comments were turned off.

 

[tony]

He could simply have said, we WD because of the other athletes at Nationals and we will not comment on the case anything before the investigation is done. That would not have been him admitting he is guilty.

I personally think it's foolish to believe people (I can't give you a number, but at least some) wouldn't read way further into that and just double down on already thinking they know every last detail.

 

[skategal]

I am also wondering if Laurence framed her response the way she did to counter speculation online that she has been (is being) treated badly by Nik in their partnership.

 

[Karen-W]

He could simply have said, we WD because of the other athletes at Nationals and we will not comment on the case anything before the investigation is done. That would not have been him admitting he is guilty.

I don't think that would stop the social media mobsters from proclaiming that he must be all but admitting guilt by not commenting on the case. These same people declared that Tessa & Scott MUST have known he was a creepy rapist years ago by interpreting body language in a brief post-medals photo op video clip.

 

[Trillian]

I think you're assuming she only found out when Brennan's article was published. I suppose that it is possible she was kept in the dark by whomever DL contacted at IAM back in December or when Nik was apparently notified in October but I don't think that's all too likely. She's had more time than any of us, I'm sure, to absorb the details of the accusation.

Do you think she necessarily would have known the details, though? The fact that he was notified in October doesn’t mean she read the actual complaint at that time - she may just have known whatever he told her. I wouldn’t expect OSIC to furnish her a copy of the statement.

Likewise, we don’t know the story around DL contacting someone at IAM - did DL know the details or did he just know that some kind of complaint was under investigation and go fishing? And was the person he contacted someone who would have talked to Laurence about it?

I have absolutely no idea. I can just envision a lot of different scenarios and I’m sympathetic to her in most of them.

 

[Barbara Manatee]

This seems to be the best possible situation at the moment. The victim has been heard and an investigation is underway. The accused has voluntary withdrawn from competition. I think over-analyzing statements and likes is unhelpful and has the potential to be counterproductive. So far we haven't had the type of tragic shitshow we saw around the Coughlin case and I sure hope that continues.

 

[Lara111]

While I agree it was best for them to withdraw, Laurence should be ready for all of the hate.

Yes, maybe she does know him as a "man of integrity, respect and kindness," but do you really think it's a good idea to go that route in your statement. People are two-faced - so I could totally believe she only knows him as a nice person. But she does realize that it makes it sound like she is discounting the survivor, right?

She definitely knows him better than you do. It is unfair not to let him to defend himself/ His life is at stake here/ Just unbelievable how many people are ready and got final conclusion without even hearing BOTH parties

 

[VGThuy]

And we have a moderator here who shares my opinion but her post has not once been quoted or countered AFAIK, but I'm sure mine will be.

I’m going to respond to this post because I feel your feelings here are something that needs to be addressed, and has been for a while. I hope you know this is coming from a good place.

First off, I understand your frustration with the mob mentality in general, and people possibly exploiting this situation to lead online crusades.

That said, I do think if you’re getting contentious responses, it’s because your original and responsive posts come off as needlessly truculent, where you need to paint any sort of “opposition” with a broad brush and hold on to this me vs. the FSU members mentality. So, of course people will respond similarly in kind when you use that sort of rhetoric even if some of your points are actually in agreement with others.

Also, I think most of the responses in this thread have been reasonable. Of course, there are some that aren’t, but in the grand scheme of things, this thread has been pretty rational for the most part. Just because somebody disagrees with your take doesn’t make them wrong or inferior. They just see things differently, so you don’t have to talk to them as if they need a lecture from you.

I’ve also noticed that you have this tendency to bring a lot of energy from outside this forum into this forum with your observations with how other figure skating fan communities act. It’s nice to get an insight about it, but it colors your responses to other users here who aren’t giving you same energy from the outside. Sometimes, it seems like you act like you have no choice but to deal with all those fans who annoy you, but you really don’t. At least, you don’t need to talk to other users here as if they’re the same people you’re dealing with on social media or Reddit or whatever.

Just keep in mind that when you want to engage with people regarding sensitive topics, recognize that these are sensitive topics that many of us have personal experience with in a way that maybe you specifically may not understand, so try to have some consideration when you are formulating some of your responses if you want to avoid contentious responses. I haven’t responded much to this thread because I know people get heated and this is a subject matter many of us have personal experience with and heightened emotions about, and this is something I know I should consider before addressing certain topics.

 

[Hedwig]

I’m going to respond to this post because I feel your feelings here are something that needs to be addressed, and has been for a while. I hope you know this is coming from a good place.

First off, I understand your frustration with the mob mentality in general, and people possibly exploiting this situation to lead online crusades.

That said, I do think if you’re getting contentious responses, it’s because your original and responsive posts come off as needlessly truculent, where you need to paint any sort of “opposition” with a broad brush and hold on to this me vs. the FSU members mentality. So, of course people will respond similarly in kind when you use that sort of rhetoric even if some of your points are actually in agreement with others.

Also, I think most of the responses in this thread have been reasonable. Of course, there are some that aren’t, but in the grand scheme of things, this thread has been pretty rational for the most part. Just because somebody disagrees with your take doesn’t make them wrong or inferior. They just see things differently, so you don’t have to talk to them as if they need a lecture from you.

I’ve also noticed that you have this tendency to bring a lot of energy from outside this forum into this forum with your observations with how other figure skating fan communities act. It’s nice to get an insight about it, but it colors your responses to other users here who aren’t giving you same energy from the outside. Sometimes, it seems like you act like you have no choice but to deal with all those fans who annoy you, but you really don’t. At least, you don’t need to talk to other users here as if they’re the same people you’re dealing with on social media or Reddit or whatever.

Just keep in mind that when you want to engage with people regarding sensitive topics, recognize that these are sensitive topics that many of us have personal experience with in a way that maybe you specifically may not understand, so try to have some consideration when you are formulating some of your responses if you want to avoid contentious responses. I haven’t responded much to this thread because I know people get heated and this is a subject matter many of us have personal experience with and heightened emotions about, and this is something I know I should consider before addressing certain topics.

That was a wonderful and very thoughtful post. Thank you.

 

[Private Citizen]

Honestly, they are all ridiculous.

But how would you deal with ridiculous claims, and under what process would you resolve them or separate them from non-ridiculous claims so that you know who to suspend immediately and who not to suspend? Who makes the call and according to what protocols?

How is SA (or other illegal behavior) involved in this at all?

Grooming. Zhulin was nine years older, and IIRC Grishuk was a teenager when the seduction started. According to some versions of Grishuk's story, it was for the sole purpose of taking her out of competition, and it was done with Usova as a knowing accomplice.

The Grishuk example is especially interesting to me because 1) it's a complicated situation, and 2) Grishuk has a rather "interesting" relationship with the truth. In this instance, the media decided Grishuk was the villain and basically ignored her story. And then she partnered up with Zhulin as a pro, which (IMO at least) casts doubt on some of her earlier stories.

But let's turn the clock back to 1993 or 1994. Imagine Grishuk, who has had an affair with her chief rival, accused him via one of the processes that now exist today (e.g., SafeSport) of grooming and taking advantage of her. Do you suspend Zhulin or not? Do you suspend Usova for being, according to Grishuk, a knowing accomplice? And what if it's all done anonymously, so all we know is that someone has accused Alexander Zhulin and/or Maya Usova, without knowing it's Grishuk, who has a questionable relationship with the truth and may have an agenda?

Back to F-B&S, I am curious if this is "it" for them, or if they will try to resume their season? Their body of work is sufficient to be considered for 4CC or Worlds, and Lajoie and Lagha's unrelated withdrawal is making this event a bit of a damp squib.

 

[tony]

I’m going to respond to this post because I feel your feelings here are something that needs to be addressed, and has been for a while. I hope you know this is coming from a good place.

First off, I understand your frustration with the mob mentality in general, and people possibly exploiting this situation to lead online crusades.

That said, I do think if you’re getting contentious responses, it’s because your original and responsive posts come off as needlessly truculent, where you need to paint any sort of “opposition” with a broad brush and hold on to this me vs. the FSU members mentality. So, of course people will respond similarly in kind when you use that sort of rhetoric even if some of your points are actually in agreement with others.

My original response had to do with mob mentality in general across the internet and the way that people immediately claim to know all the facts and shun everyone else for not doing as they do. I found it to be a relatively tame comment- And then I was greeted with stats and 'well if you want people to stop bitching about vigilantism, then....' Although I wasn't quoted, it came directly after my comment.

There are responses in this thread that paint Nik as absolutely, positively guilty by pulling statistics from websites, saying they've worked around it long enough to know brief comments to be true, saying essentially that no one ever lies about this stuff and has no reason to. And for some people here, anyone who doesn't get on board with that right away means that they don't care or they are enabling an abuser, or they post things like 'I wonder what the gender is of those posters'-- when in fact, that quote referred to 1 poster who was questioning whether it could be considered a forgivable 'mistake'.

I brought up Biden's sexual assault case not as a 'gotcha' but just to show that as much as some people say they always believe the accuser, it's simply not the case. It's still circumstantial and something like a fear of Trump getting re-elected obviously caused plenty of people to dismiss claims or just look the other way. I think that's a real problem, but was told it should be in PI.

I’ve also noticed that you have this tendency to bring a lot of energy from outside this forum into this forum with your observations with how other figure skating fan communities act. It’s nice to get an insight about it, but it colors your responses to other users here who aren’t giving you same energy from the outside. Sometimes, it seems like you act like you have no choice but to deal with all those fans who annoy you, but you really don’t. At least, you don’t need to talk to other users here as if they’re the same people you’re dealing with on social media or Reddit or whatever.

I'm not talking about figure skating communities specifically (I don't read skating Reddit, for example) and as I mentioned above, it was a comment on the internet as a whole taking sides.

Just keep in mind that when you want to engage with people regarding sensitive topics, recognize that these are sensitive topics that many of us have personal experience with in a way that maybe you specifically may not understand, so try to have some consideration when you are formulating some of your responses if you want to avoid contentious responses. I haven’t responded much to this thread because I know people get heated and this is a subject matter many of us have personal experience with and heightened emotions about, and this is something I know I should consider before addressing certain topics.

Well, seeing how I have a very different set of experiences than most people here and often get lumped lumped into the problem with 'men' in general and how I'm 'racist' or 'misogynist' or 'mansplaining' for simply having a different opinion, those people should also know I'm coming from a different place than they are. And further, just because I am a (known) man here doesn't mean I don't and won't have any experience in this specific topic. We all can be more understanding of each other and especially not assume one person had it easier than the next because of A or B situation.

Even through all of this, it still doesn't take away from the danger of automatically finding each and every defendant guilty in these cases. No matter how disappointing or frustrating the system is.

 

[once_upon]

I think the situation is a no win for anyone or organization. Releasing a statement or not releasing a statement really gives more questions than already posed over the last few days.

People only know the side of someone that they allow to be seen or that they want to see.

 

[MacMadame]

But how would you deal with ridiculous claims, and under what process would you resolve them or separate them from non-ridiculous claims so that you know who to suspend immediately and who not to suspend? Who makes the call and according to what protocols?

When I said they were ridiculous, I meant they were ridiculous comparisons. We have here an actual complaint to an actual organization with the ability to investigate and make a determination of what to do according to their protocols. This is not the same thing as someone saying something in an interview or making a complaint that clearly has no merit. (Like declaring someone fondled you when there are multiple witnesses that the two of you were never alone together.)

 

[overedge]

She definitely knows him better than you do. It is unfair not to let him to defend himself/ His life is at stake here/ Just unbelievable how many people are ready and got final conclusion without even hearing BOTH parties

There's a complaint being investigated. That is the process through which both parties will get their chance to be heard.

 

[overedge]

I see no reason for the victim to make false claims after all this time. She would be in her thirties now. It has probably haunted her all these years.

Does anyone know how the investigation is to be carried out? Can they interview people, review text messaging, etc?

I would have to check but IIRC the OSIC investigators can collect any evidence that they deem to be relevant to assessing the complaint, and making a decision. So yes, they could conduct interviews and review online messages.

ETA: Whether the investigators would have the same authority as, say, a police investigation, to require information to be provided if it wasn't given voluntarily (like access to phone/text records) - I don't know.