JoJo Gomez, Choreographer, Accuses Daniil Gleikhengauz of Stealing Her Work

kwanfan1818

I <3 Kozuka
Messages
31,759
Fokine's work is covered under US copyright law through 2047, according to the Fokine estate. So I believe Baiul is busted, particularly since the estate is highly selective and protective, and many a school (and even a company or two) have advertised something different when performing all or parts of Les Sylphides.

I don't see anything to to indicate Nijinsky's work is, so Plushenko is fine.

It's a dog's life to be Petipa: almost every production of ballet's he created are listed in the program as "after Petipa," even the worst dreck. And even though many were notated. But he took Giselle and put his stamp on it, so he wasn't beyond his own artistic grabs. (His brother Lucien was the first Albrecht.) So all of the Swan Lakes and Giselles and Don Q's -- more likely stolen from Gorsky, who made changes in 1900, during Petipa's lifetime, much to Petipa's chagrin -- and Bayaderes and Raymondas and Corsaires and Esmeralda's, etc. are fair game.

There was no Balanchine Trust in full swing in 1984, when one of the ABT Ballet Mistresses helped Blumberg/Seibert choreograph their Scheherezade and gave them the Siren's slide from Balanchine's Prodigal Son pas de deux as a highlight move. I can't remember to whom Balanchine willed the rights for that ballet, but 1984 was probably too early for the Trust to have been formed and before it was in a position to control the rights and enforce permissions.
 
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Tony Wheeler

Well-Known Member
Messages
6,313
I really wish that this silly controversy didn't exist. To chose music that was publicly coveted by Medvedeva was so petty.

But no. That would be too easy. Must play stupid games.
You do realize this song was #1 or #2 in many nations when it was first released, right? 🙄 Medvedeva may have loved it, but so did/does the rest of the world. It’s not as if it’s some random piece discovered by Evgenia.
 

Tavi

Well-Known Member
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1,845
Alina's program (or do I need to watch something else other than the beginning?) has like 3 to 5 seconds of this so-called choreography, which consists of shirt biting and similar head motions.

Gomez is going to suffer professionally ?:lol: The overreaction of it all. She is being criticized because maybe not everyone sees this the same way as you do.
Darling, you know how they say it’s better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and confirm to everyone you really are one?

You’re welcome to think whatever you want, but you don’t know what you’re talking about. I spent seven years dealing with exactly these kinds of issues, and I do.
 

muffinplus

Well-Known Member
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3,227
Darling, you know how they say it’s better to keep your mouth shut and be thought a fool than to open it and confirm to everyone you really are one?

You’re welcome to think whatever you want, but you don’t know what you’re talking about. I spent seven years dealing with exactly these kinds of issues, and I do.
Are you full of yourself much? I'm not sure why you feel so entitled, but goodbye.
 

IceAlisa

discriminating and persnickety ballet aficionado
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37,262
A few things: Mini Ice has a very annoying habit of biting his t-shirt or sweatshirt. He knows and loves this song. He now feels even more connected to it :lol:
 

aftershocks

Well-Known Member
Messages
15,848
So he took 10 seconds of shirt biting and maybe 2 moves from her video...
:lol: It was more than the shirt-biting. :p Come on. It was the whole concept, and the entire opening of dance moves we see in the Gomez video, starting from the on-ice sitting position, and the bending over move upon rising, plus attempting to approximate other moves from Gomez's dance throughout Alina's program. The concept, structure, inspiration and a number of moves are from Gomez's work. It's just that Daniil tried to adapt/ co-opt it for the ice, as best he could. :rofl:

This reminds me somewhat of when Debi Thomas created and choreographed a boss program to a James Bond medley (License to Kill/ Diamonds are Forever/ For Your Eyes Only) wearing a short trench coat, a black hat, and holding a gun as a prop. She took off the trench to reveal a negligee-themed black outfit with fur trim around the skirt, and for the final song pulled off the negligee to reveal a skimpy sizzling hot, sheer Vegas style outfit with sequins. It was a great concept and a brilliant technical program too that helped Debi win World Pros in late 1988. The imitations of this trench-coat, outfit-switching program were legion thereafter, with James Bond themes galore. It was the concept, the costumes and sometimes the music that were copied, not necessarily the moves. But still, the idea was original with Debi. She always tended to do her own choreography. Her versatility showed in the more lyrical fp she performed to classical music:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WoVIvt8MqKc Debi tech program World Pros 1988
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FQ_BdTAVO3Q Debi artistic program Chopin's Etude in E flat

Most memorably, Liz Manley of Canada sometime later performed a very similar program in an exhibition performance (I don't recall her music), with the exact same color and style short trench with costume change. No one who copied Debi's trench-coat themed, James Bond medley credited her.

The thing to realize is that although ideas and innovative moves are copied all the time in figure skating (we've seen that with Savchenko/ Szolkowy, Pap/Ciz, and James/Cipres' moves, approaches to programs, and sometimes costumes being copied), their choreographic concepts coupled with music and substantial moves aren't co-opted entirely by other skaters. Choreographers are definitely influenced by moves and concepts they see other choreographers creating, but they have to bring their own ideas and signature stamp to what they are doing. In Daniil's case, the work was not his own idea, and he co-opted too much from the original, coupled with the same music and punkish-looking outfit worn by Alina.

In contrast, what we see Cordero Zuckerman doing with the Eilish music is still inspired by the original video interpretation, but less of an exact copy.
 
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Badams

Messages
5,516
I love the reaction from the various Uber fans. It's reminiscent of the MK vs Tara/Irina/Sasha days. Oh, the off-season petty battles have been missed.
 

Michalle

Well-Known Member
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1,845
You guys got me to check out this song, and then a whole bunch of other popular stuff, and I hated it all, and now I feel old. Thanks a lot! On the bright side, I hated everything popular when I was young too, so maybe I'm just consistent, not out of touch. :cry:
 

VenusH.

Active Member
Messages
75
You guys got me to check out this song, and then a whole bunch of other popular stuff, and I hated it all, and now I feel old. Thanks a lot! On the bright side, I hated everything popular when I was young too, so maybe I'm just consistent, not out of touch. :cry:
Yeah the song is gross, the performance is stupid asides that one spin.... ewwww to biting at clothes. I worked with child of multiple diagnoses who did that and we tried to break the habit lol.

If this tacky trash gets dropped.... it will be good. Along with Med's 7 rings.... it makes me feel old and grumpy not liking it.... but WHAT is there to like?
 

cholla

High ground loner
Messages
11,771
To chose music that was publicly coveted by Medvedeva was so petty.
If Medvedeva coveted this music, she should have taken it, shut up and get a program built to it like everybody does. It's not like she was the one who discovered the song and made it successful. If she has learnt her lesson now, next time, that's what she'll do. We see countless programs made to the same music every season and skaters don't complain "I heard it first". No one cares. I'm a fan of both Medvedeva and Zagitova and some of the sociopaths they have as "fans" are both despicable ans scary. I just hope no one of this demented bunch will ever get anywhere near them. As for Daniil copying Jojo's choreography, well, being copied means you've reached true success. To me Jojo was right claiming her work had been used without permission, DG apologized, now everybody's happy living in a beautiful world. End of story.
 

Rukia

A Southern, hot-blooded temperamental individual
Messages
6,366
There was a huge campaign in Russian social media organized by Evgenia's fans who claimed that Alina stole Evgenia's song when they announced Bad Guy for Alina. I am surprised it was brought to this board however :rolleyes:
If there's something negative about Med it will definitely be brought here. If there's something negative about Zags it will likely be brought over here. Some people just like to take potshots at skaters for no reason.
 

slicekw

Will Tech Support for good food.
Messages
10,885
Three things:

1. Choreographers should just not steal other people's concepts/moves without talking to the original choreographer, just like with other things like books, paintings, etc.

2. <sarcasm> It's certainly exciting to see ubers on this board try to be as obsessively crazy as the Beyhive. </sarcasm>
<sincerity> But please don't blame the artists for what the ubers say. </sincerity>

3. SYTYCD is almost finished with auditions and the good stuff starts in a few weeks!
 

muffinplus

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,227
It was more than the shirt-biting. :p Come on. It was the whole concept, and the entire opening of dance moves we see in the Eilish video, starting from the on-ice sitting position, and the bending over move upon rising, plus attempting to approximate other moves from Gomez's dance throughout Alina's program. The concept, structure, inspiration and a number of moves are from Gomez's work. It's just that Daniil tried to adapt/ co-opt it for the ice, as best he could. :rofl:
In the Eilish video or the Gomez video?

I cannot really be bothered to rewatch the program right now to see what else is borrowed upon / or inspired by apart from the opening 4 seconds (and , is there really a lot?) , but again I'm on the "so what" bandwagon, as this is a skating program, which other have mentioned have previously have borrowed from other pop videos / dance.

I honestly fail to see the outrage... what does Gomez want, money for using some moves similar to hers? If it's not money, to be consulted one using 3 moves similar to hers in a skating program? If she is so bothered that she wasn't consulted, and then why didn't she copyright these moves? I could sort of see her point, if this wasn't a skating program. The whole thing smacks of attention seeking. The sad thing, this so called choreography/program/ song are not that good (in my opinion at least), and it's not like it's needed at all to sell the shows, as Zagitova sells the shows just by herself. I wish they would scrap the whole thing and make a new program
 

Fairuza

Well-Known Member
Messages
297
there’s some pretty whacked logic here: someone thinks that the song/choreo isn’t so great, so stealing the choreo is nothing much. No, if Gleikhengauz thought the choreo was great enough to copy the moves and the concept, your opinions about the song and the choreo don’t matter one bit. What matters is that he did copy them and didn’t give credit to JoJo - the fact you cannot deny since he admitted it himself.

All JoJo wanted is credit where credit is due. In case some smart heads can’t grasp the idea.
 

muffinplus

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,227
there’s some pretty whacked logic here: someone thinks that the song/choreo isn’t so great, so stealing the choreo is nothing much. No, if Gleikhengauz thought the choreo was great enough to copy the moves and the concept, your opinions about the song and the choreo don’t matter one bit. What matters is that he did copy them and didn’t give credit to JoJo - the fact you cannot deny since he admitted it himself.

All JoJo wanted is credit where credit is due. In case some smart heads can’t grasp the idea.
I never said that the quality of her choreo had anything to do with whether incorporating moves similar to her "choreo" was okay or not. I just said I wish it hadn't been because it's not very good.
 

okokok777

Well-Known Member
Messages
44
In the Eilish video or the Gomez video?

I cannot really be bothered to rewatch the program right now to see what else is borrowed upon / or inspired by apart from the opening 4 seconds (and , is there really a lot?) , but again I'm on the "so what" bandwagon, as this is a skating program, which other have mentioned have previously have borrowed from other pop videos / dance.

I honestly fail to see the outrage... what does Gomez want, money for using some moves similar to hers? If it's not money, to be consulted one using 3 moves similar to hers in a skating program? If she is so bothered that she wasn't consulted, and then why didn't she copyright these moves? I could sort of see her point, if this wasn't a skating program. The whole thing smacks of attention seeking. The sad thing, this so called choreography/program/ song are not that good (in my opinion at least), and it's not like it's needed at all to sell the shows, as Zagitova sells the shows just by herself. I wish they would scrap the whole thing and make a new program
I really am not following your line of thinking.

He copied another choreographer's work without permission and didn't credit her. When he was informed about his actions by fans, he could have reached out to Jojo and explained the situation. Instead, he deleted the comments and blocked the posters. Jojo had every right to call him out publicly.

Furthermore, the second that Jojo posted that video on YouTube, she received copyright protection under U.S. law. Even if she had copyrighted the choreography, suing Daniil for copyright infringement is more time-consuming and expensive than it is worth, especially considering the fact that he is based in Russia. In most cases, an artist's most feasible option is to ask that they be credited - which is what Jojo did.
 

Fairuza

Well-Known Member
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297
I never said that the quality of her choreo had anything to do with whether incorporating moves similar to her "choreo" was okay or not. I just said I wish it hadn't been because it's not very good.
Well, he did steal the moves - and from the moment he did, your opinion doesn’t change a single thing. He stole the concept, he didn’t credit JoJo with it, he even tried to evade responsibility until JoJo called him out. That’s totally not ok, no matter how many times you choose to repeat that the original choreo isn’t good.
 

muffinplus

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3,227
I really am not following your line of thinking.

He copied another choreographer's work without permission and didn't credit her. When he was informed about his actions by fans, he could have reached out to Jojo and explained the situation. Instead, he deleted the comments and blocked the posters. Jojo had every right to call him out publicly.
He deletes just about everyone who posts something remotely negative about him; this isn't exclusive to this situation

Furthermore, the second that Jojo posted that video on YouTube, she received copyright protection under U.S. law. Even if she had copyrighted the choreography, suing Daniil for copyright infringement is more time-consuming and expensive than it is worth, especially considering the fact that he is based in Russia. In most cases, an artist's most feasible option is to ask that they be credited - which is what Jojo did.
Except she did it in a very public way, which conceivably generates more attention. My line of thinking is that I just don't recall someone screaming about "Stealing" and "copyright" when (I'm sure) similar things have happened before in skating programs "borrowing" from other mediums...

(I think I'm over this topic. It's obvious some of us are not going to see this the same way)
 

CaliSteve

Well-Known Member
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708
I honestly fail to see the outrage... what does Gomez want, money for using some moves similar to hers?
Jojo Gomez wants people to stop copying her choreo without giving her credit or acknowledgment. She was frustrated and called him out, rightfully so. He did apologized and gave her credit. Honestly, Daniil was not the first or will be the last to copy her work.

This isnt about this team vs that team, if you like the music or not, if you think Jojo was being opportunistic or not, its the fact that someone copied a portion of someone's choreo. I dont think Daniil was being shady but more not thinking to give credit to Jojo.
 
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Fairuza

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297
(I think I'm over this topic. It's obvious some of us are not going to see this the same way)
They don’t have to, in case it never occurred to you.
What transitioned from JoJo YouTube video to the ice show was a very specific and memorable sequence, which actually sets the mood for the whole ex. Without that, the skate just falls apart and becomes a random collection of jumps and spins. Not that anyone loses anything if it does, the ex isn’t that great (unlike the original choreo) - but for crying out loud, stop trying to diminish the extent Alina’s ex owes to JoJo’s choreography.
 

aftershocks

Well-Known Member
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15,848
As Stravinsky said - - on film, used in the PBS Balanchine bio, - - " I steal from Mozart because I love him."
Sure but Stravinsky was also a genius who placed his own stamp on what he copped/ got inspired by. :D

I'm fairly certain Igor didn't steal entire musical compositions from Amadeus, just perhaps some of the themes, technical nuances, etc., to create something new and different in its own right.

Again, there's a difference from copying directly without crediting, vs being inspired by a concept, movement aesthetic, creative work or another artist's style and bringing something else to the table with the borrowed ideas, as well as acknowledging the source of inspiration.
 
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Finsta

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321
- I personally very well understand JoJo's reaction when she saw first few seconds of Alina's programme, since the first 6 gestures are from her video. It is not a matter of "payment", it is a matter of what's in her perception "taking hers, without asking first". She said that she did not copyright it, or marked her video with any legal notifications, but still, her human reaction is normal. I can relate, because when few times people took my FSU russian translations and posted on their site, for me it was not about "money" or "credit", but "taking without asking".

- JoJo and her boyfriend Donovan (rudeboydonovan) have been now made aware of the "causes and reasons and story behind" all the hate and threats Alina has received on her social media last two days. Beside JoJo's request to stop hate against Alina, her boyfriend also felt he had to speak out and posted his request to stop:

- JoJo apparently is interested in visiting Russia, or possibly working with Alina, and both of them for example doing a "Puma" commercial, with her choreography and Alina's skating, is an interesting option, given the "Puma" market segment and target audience overlap with JoJo's audience demographics.

- Now. Daniil, on the other hand, has not done anything "sneaky" or "malicious" or "intentional. It is a misunderstanding, and it had to be resolved, since it came to this.

Most figure skating programmes are BASED on "copying something" from already existing "visual arts" pieces. Choreographers do watch videos of ballets, dance and theatre performances to use the parts in their programmes. So far it has NOT been a problem when one "watched a video" and "uses few moves/steps in the programme". It is reasonable that a choreographer will not make a connection between "steps in a video" and "a copyright" or "infringement issue" (unless it is noted on the video).

Plushenko's and Kostner's "Nizhinsky" programmes have exact copies of 3-4 moves from the "Faun" ballet.
Oksana Baul's "Dying Swan" has more than 8 element sequences from Anna Pavlova's ballet choreography.

The issue of using Michael Jackon's and Charlie Chaplin's "trade mark moves" is a gray area. But in the mind of a choreographer "here is a video of a choreography (which is obviously designed by someone)" and "here i am using a segment of it in a programme, and nobody complains".

When a pattern is established of "using videos with others' choreography in skating programmes without complaints", for so many years, it is reasonable to assume that "a video of someone dancing hip-hop" would be treated any differently in the mind of a choreographer. And that is what happened with Daniil.

There are many "dancing versions" of "Bad Guy". Over 15. JoJo's is just one of them. Most of the videos look like bunch of teenage girls/boys, or young adults, having a dance party, or a dance competition, or just dancing their school gym or studio, or girls showing off their dancing skills and abilities, or promoting themselves as dancers, or dance trainers.

None of these videos (en mass) look like a "business project with copyright issues" or "something of commercial value". I've shown these videos to people with legal background, and their reaction also was, pretty much "bunch of young people dancing". To the question "what about some titles of the videos saying Choreography By so-and-so", I received a number of legal explanations, which pretty much come down to "how much of the chore what used", "for what purpose (competition or not)", and that copyrighting choreography, or ethics issues of use, is a complex and a very tricky business.

Again, there are many "kids dancing to Big Guy, and doing choreography", en mass, they don't look like commercial projects, and "using few of their moves" does not ring a bell of "infringement on copyrights". JoJo's video is just one of them....

There are even Japanese anime dances..

Had Daniil even suspected a problem, he would not have OPENLY posted this foto over 2 months ago.
Why is this turned into poor Alina? The coach did a bad. Why try to twist it?
 

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