ISU Transgender Policy

[aka_gerbil]

But we’re still defining biological sex based on a collection of characteristics rather than a single characteristic, correct?

I define it on sexual reproduction of our species: what gametes would one contribute to production of the next generation and the genitalia/organs one is born with as determined by composition of xx and xy chromosomes.

Most but not all people fall into one of two peaks on a bimodal graph with a small percentage between (intersex) or at the extremes. Some intersex people can reproduce, others can’t. Same for other chromosomal compositions. Most XO (Turner’s syndrome) almost always can’t. XXY men typically have issues with low sperm count, but can reproduce naturally or with treatment. I have never said it’s a binary—it’s bimodal. Almost all people are going to fall into one of the two peaks (biological male or female).

For all but a tiny subset, biological sex in the end comes down to what gametes you would contribute to the next generation and how you contribute physically (with the caveat that there is not an infertility issue).

 

[MacMadame]

I define it on sexual reproduction of our species:

So biological sex is only our genitals? I think that's a pretty limiting way of looking at it IMO.

 

[aka_gerbil]

So biological sex is only our genitals? I think that's a pretty limiting way of looking at it IMO.

No. It’s not just genitals. If you sexually reproduced, what gamete would you contribute? Biological sex applies to sexual reproduction of a species.

What and how does a specific animal contribute to production of the following generation.

 

[MacMadame]

No. It’s not just genitals. If you sexually reproduced, what gamete would you contribute? Biological sex applies to sexual reproduction of a species.

But it's still just about reproduction. I don't like being reduced to that.

 

[aka_gerbil]

But it's still just about reproduction. I don't like being reduced to that.

Sorry, that’s just biology. Survival of a species is, unsentimentally, about reproduction. There are very specific contributions to that made by the male biological parent and the female biological parent. You have two have two different gametes in the end for sexual reproduction. I made peace with this my freshman year of college.

It’s just one aspect of who you are though. No one said there isn’t a lot more to you as an individual

 

[Aussie Willy]

Advocating for both the rights of trans women and cis women are not mutually exclusive. You can advocate for both trans women rights while also advocating for the rights of cis women. When granting rights to one infringes on the rights of millions, there is a problem. Sadly, there are no easy answers. It is not acceptable to call cis women who are not comfortable with male anatomy in their locker room, or find it unfair to be forced to compete against those who are biological males, biggots, transphobic, etc. Those who do such things need to look in the mirror at who the harassers are.

Could you maybe address my post. What I was saying if you watch that documentary it talks about perceptions and sterotypes around transgender people as portrayed in the movies and how that representation in many instances has been a negative one. Such as the man who dresses as a woman being a serial killer. Or that any time a guy kisses a woman with a penis that he ends up throwing up such as The Crying Game or Ace Ventura Pet Detective. These portrayals filter into society as negative.

 

[Deleted member 221]

Not everyone will transition completely, but we should welcome everyone to try.

Not sure what you're saying here? I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt and assuming it doesn't mean that every trans person should go through surgery, etc.

Every trans person should be free to choose the details of their transition. For instance, if Lia Thomas does not want to change her genitals, that's her right. I'm not at all bothered by women with penises. When it comes to sport, though, I do think there are legitimate questions around what's the best group in which trans people should compete, and it may require more nuanced guidelines.

Adult skating doesn't have the same rules as Olympics & Worlds, but there is/was a competitor at US Adult Nationals who was raised as a male and who now uses feminine pronouns, but who competes in the men's division. I don't recall anyone throwing a hissy fit about that and saying that she could compete with the women.

This is great, and a good example of what some people are arguing: that it may be better / fairer for some trans people to compete against their original sex in a category with a gender and identity inclusive name.

Not to further feed the misguided obsession with body parts, but if a trans woman has gender-confirming surgery that alters their "biological male" physical features, it could be argued that they are no longer male.

I agree with this, and think there is nuance to the discussion. There's a difference between someome who went through male puberty and has male body parts v. someone who transitioned pre-puberty and had gender-confirming (thank you for using that name; I hadn't seen it, but will use it myself going forward) surgery. They're both women, but their physical and sexual characteristics are different. They both should be able to compete in any sport they want to, without discrimination. Yet perhaps they belong in different gender-inclusive groups, based on sex and physical characteristics.

 

[Trillian]

Sorry, that’s just biology. Survival of a species is, unsentimentally, about reproduction. There are very specific contributions to that made by the male biological parent and the female biological parent. You have two have two different gametes in the end for sexual reproduction. I made peace with this my freshman year of college.

It’s just one aspect of who you are though. No one said there isn’t a lot more to you as an individual

Thanks for taking the time for these replies. It makes sense as a classification system in a specific context.

If the most important feature of the “biological sex” everyone is hung up on refers to reproductive potential in particular, then why would we use it to classify athletes into competitive divisions? Yes, certain reproductive traits tend to be linked to other physical characteristics that can impact athletic performance. But certain gender identities, statistically, also tend to be linked to the same characteristics. There are going to be outliers either way. If we insist that we need to rely on reproductive biology, “enforcement” is going to rely on complex testing that’s not always conclusive and can be traumatic for the athletes. There’s a long history of attempts to do this, and it hasn’t gone well.

Gender is a social construct, but so are sports. Gender identity might not be a perfect way to classify people into two groups since it’s not binary either. But it seems to me that if we’re sorting people into two groups for a sociocultural event, it makes more sense to use a sociocultural definition as a guideline.

 

[Former Lurve Goddess]

All of this talk of bathrooms is just homophobia and transphobia in action. I know a former synchro skating competitor who was an out lesbian when she competed. Apparently, some of her teammates' mothers were worried about her in the change rooms with their daughters.

 

[MacMadame]

Sorry, that’s just biology.

Come on, even if we only go by reproductive organs (which is basically genitals), it's not "just' biology. You're taking all the nuance out of the discussion and making it seem simple when it's not.

 

[Aussie Willy]

All of this talk of bathrooms is just homophobia and transphobia in action. I know a former synchro skating competitor who was an out lesbian when she competed. Apparently, some of her teammates' mothers were worried about her in the change rooms with their daughters.

Great point.

 

[jenny12]

All of this talk of bathrooms is just homophobia and transphobia in action. I know a former synchro skating competitor who was an out lesbian when she competed. Apparently, some of her teammates' mothers were worried about her in the change rooms with their daughters.

Agreed. I think ultimately this is what it comes down to. It’s funny that people who often don’t give damn about women’s rights suddenly “care” so much about their safety when it comes to this.

 

[Sparks]

It's not about the bathrooms just like it wasn't about the water fountains

 

[Trillian]

Agreed. I think ultimately this is what comes down to. It’s funny that people who often don’t give damn about women’s rights suddenly “care” so much about their safety when it comes to this.

And on the flipside, also a lot of self-proclaimed feminists these days whose activism consists of… working to exclude and marginalize women.

I’m curious how many of the people who don’t want trans women in sports because “male puberty” are also supporting all the various bills attacking gender-affirming health care for minors. If trans women want to compete in sports they shouldn’t go through “male puberty,” but - let’s make sure we force them to go through puberty without gender-affirming health care whether they want to or not. My first instinct is to call it cognitive dissonance, but actually, I’m sure most of them know exactly what they’re doing.

 

[aka_gerbil]

If the most important feature of the “biological sex” everyone is hung up on refers to reproductive potential in particular, then why would we use it to classify athletes into competitive divisions? Yes

Sexual reproduction becomes possible after sexual maturation at puberty. Testes ramp up testosterone production. Testosterone is a necessary hormone for spermatogenesis to happen, but it also has affects on other parts of the body such as organs and the musculoskeletal system. If the testosterone produced by testes only had an effect on spermatogenesis, we would not be having this conversation. But, it’s an anabolic steroid that circulates systemically and so has effects elsewhere. During puberty, it contributes to increases limb length (height is affected by multiple genes but also by environmental factors—a male and female sibling could have the exact same genes for height, but the male sibling would end up taller because of exposure to testosterone during puberty). It contributes to a significant perceive increase in muscle strength that females don’t get. Lungs and heart, because they are also muscle, are also influenced by the increase in testosterone. These hormonally driven changes are what give males a physical advantage over females in sports.

The son of a good friend is a promising competitive swimmer. He’s a young teen, and my friend is an awe watching how much faster and powerful the young men have gotten in just a couple of years (we are talking these boys are having massive drops in race times) and how the young women they train with who could once keep up or even had faster times can’t and don’t anymore.

Hormones are the other piece of reproduction, but their affects aren’t limited to the reproductive system as they circulate through the whole body. It’s the secondary effects on other parts of the body that affect sports performance.

 

[overedge]

If anything, skating is a sport where hormonally-driven "advantages" shouldn't be an advantage. Men and women both have to do the same things in pairs and dance, with the exception of lifts, and women and men are landing pretty much the same jumps in singles competition. Skating requires competitors to be strong, fast, and flexible, and I honestly don't see how male or female hormones would give anyone an "unfair" advantage in any of those areas. If someone is strong, they're usually less flexible. It all balances out.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Genitals/reproductive organ requirements would make sense if there was a reproduction sports contest.

 

[aka_gerbil]

Genitals/reproductive organ requirements would make sense if there was a reproduction sports contest.

The issue in regards to sports is about secondary effects of testosterone produced by the testes and how thar relates to athletic performance. If testosterone only affected the reproductive system and did not gave an effect elsewhere in the body, we would not be having this conversation.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I understand that. It is, however, only one factor, and I don't agree that splitting the world into two based on reproductive organs because "that's nature" is a valid way to determine participation in sports. "That's nature" is a valid way to view reproduction.

 

[Trillian]

The issue in regards to sports is about secondary effects of testosterone produced by the testes and how thar relates to athletic performance.

But testosterone levels can vary quite a bit between individuals, correct? If you have a large sample of people who were all assigned female at birth, and a large sample of people who all identify as women but may include a very small percentage of trans women, is it likely that there’d be a significant difference in the average/mean/whatever testosterone levels observed in those two groups? Because if we’re going to see largely similar testosterone levels between those two groups - which I suspect we would - it still doesn’t make sense to use reproductive sex criteria for sporting events.

On top of that, my understanding is that we still don’t have conclusive data on how past or current hormonal differences impact trans women’s athletic performance post-transition anyway. So on that level, it also doesn’t seem like a reasonable justification for barring certain women from competition.

 

[aka_gerbil]

I posted above that 94% of trans woman who have been on HRT for an extended time have testosterone levels that fall in range of biological females so the cut off of 5 is not too low.

The question is does having undergone male puberty with testosterone give physical advantages that do not go away after hrt or surgery to remove the testes. (Limbs aren’t going to shrink in length, for example.)Right now, it looks like there are some retained advantages and the scientists studying this say more studies need to be done to get answers so good policy decisions can be made. The ultimate answer is going to be likely be it matters in some sports but less or not at all in others and decisions will be made on a sport by sport basis. Also, I think with more people identifying as trans and transitioning, we will eventually see more trans athletes and have the numbers to figure this out for each sport.

 

[overedge]

Genitals/reproductive organ requirements would make sense if there was a reproduction sports contest.

What was that quote from Zhulin about "you can't win the Olympics by thinking with your sex organs"?

 

[overedge]

But testosterone levels can vary quite a bit between individuals, correct? If you have a large sample of people who were all assigned female at birth, and a large sample of people who all identify as women but may include a very small percentage of trans women, is it likely that there’d be a significant difference in the average/mean/whatever testosterone levels observed in those two groups? Because if we’re going to see largely similar testosterone levels between those two groups - which I suspect we would - it still doesn’t make sense to use reproductive sex criteria for sporting events.

On top of that, my understanding is that we still don’t have conclusive data on how past or current hormonal differences impact trans women’s athletic performance post-transition anyway. So on that level, it also doesn’t seem like a reasonable justification for barring certain women from competition.

And since this thread started with information about the ISU's transgender policy - I've yet to see anything in this thread that suggests a trans person competing in skating, in the gender category they now identify with, is going to have any significant advantage over competitors who aren't trans.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Agreed. I think ultimately this is what it comes down to. It’s funny that people who often don’t give damn about women’s rights suddenly “care” so much about their safety when it comes to this.

These are the same people who get there and think that women who are calling out sexual assault and rape judge those same women for "getting themselves into the position where they put themselves in danger". You know the usual "She shouldn't have drunk so much" or "She shouldn't have dressed in that way". Because heaven forbid that men cannot control themselves. Usual victim blaming mentality.

 

[Lemonade20]

And since this thread started with information about the ISU's transgender policy - I've yet to see anything in this thread that suggests a trans person competing in skating, in the gender category they now identify with, is going to have any significant advantage over competitors who aren't trans.

Exactly. Everyone's talking about bathrooms/locker rooms but it's not what we should be discussing. Because there's a wide variety (ie binary, trans, transitioning, etc), it's much harder to set the standards. How can we judge by their hormones? By their bodies? I believe we should let them decide which class to compete in and let their skating speaks for itself. There really aren't enough to create a third catch-all class, and at the same time, excluding them from skating just because of how they appear is just ???

 

[arakwafan2006]

I'm glad they have a policy and for the most part it seems reasonable but I think this:

The Skater must demonstrate that her total testosterone level in serum has been below 5 nmol/L continuously for at least 12 months prior to her first competition

Is too strict. There are cis women who can't meet that criteria.

Also, they need to add something about intersexed athletes since their biological sex is mixed.

If this is what a sis gendered woman produces naturally, so what? It is NATURAL! Also, how many women NATURALLY do this? Making the fringe the norm is ridiculous

 

[MacMadame]

If this is what a sis gendered woman produces naturally, so what? It is NATURAL! Also, how many women NATURALLY do this? Making the fringe the norm is ridiculous

It's cis and there are cis women who are outside the norm. If someone accuses them of being trans and they are forced to get tested, they will fail. I don't think that's right.

And this policy doesn't even get into where intersexed athletes -- who are twice as common as trans women -- fit in.

 

[arakwafan2006]

It's cis and there are cis women who are outside the norm. If someone accuses them of being trans and they are forced to get tested, they will fail. I don't think that's right.

And this policy doesn't even get into where intersexed athletes -- who are twice as common as trans women -- fit in.

sweetheart... in reality, a cic gendered womans genetics, they supersede the hormone test. They have records showing their cic gender...

 

[VGThuy]

sweetheart... in reality, a cic gendered womans genetics, they supersede the hormone test. They have records showing their cic gender...

I guess you missed past cases where cisgender women did get disqualified from competition due to failing past testosterone level testing. That’s why there’s been a movement away from just looking at that.

Two more cis Black women banned from Olympics for their natural testosterone levels - LGBTQ Nation

Christine Mboma and Beatrice Masilingi are the latest accomplished athletes to be excluded under the rule that devastated Caster Semenya's career.

www.lgbtqnation.com

Caster Semenya Loses Case to Compete as a Woman in All Races (Published 2019)

The South African, a two-time Olympic champion at 800 meters, had challenged proposed limits on female athletes with naturally elevated levels of testosterone.

www.nytimes.com

Similar arguments were made in the past about unfair advantages black and brown women had over white women and then it became about lesbians having a natural physical advantage over straight women and how unfair that was. I think the fact that most sporting federations are coming up with their own rules about trans inclusion and are actively working with medical and other experts to find a fair solution is probably the best step. They are working for and not against inclusion with fairness as a primary consideration. If they are allowing trans athletes, it wasn’t due to lack of thought or insight into the situation.

 

[Deleted member 221]

I’m curious how many of the people who don’t want trans women in sports because “male puberty” are also supporting all the various bills attacking gender-affirming health care for minors.

No one on this thread.

Exactly. Everyone's talking about bathrooms/locker rooms but it's not what we should be discussing.

Who is everyone? Anyone on this thread?

I think it's dishonest to use such a broad brush to attack people posting in good faith who are trans-inclusive and trans-positive. No one on this thread is talking about denying gender-affirming health care to minors. Someone can speak up if they disagree, but I think it's safe to say that we all support it. Comments about locker rooms have been limited to etiquette -- being explicit, whether it's appropriate for trans women to walk around locker rooms naked, with their penises exposed. (And I do think it's a fair question - you can both support trans women using women's locker rooms, and support etiquette that requires penises to be covered except when actively showering.)

People are posting mainly about the very narrow issue of how best to handle trans athletes who have undergone male puberty. And I think (again, someone can speak up if they disagree) everyone is clear that 1) we must be trans-inclusive, and 2) a third category is not an option.

Can we please stick to this issue, or at least not put words in people's mouths or paint them with broad brushes? This isn't transphobia. It's political correctness gone mad.