ISU Transgender Policy

[carriecmu0503]

If someone in a dressing room likes to walk around in the nude, and that makes you uncomfortable, don't look at them. It's that simple.

I would love to see you tell a female survivor of sexual assault that to her face! The problem is with someone with a penis walking around naked in what is supposed to be a private space for females. You are further invalidating the trauma the 25% of women in the US who are raped in her lifetime, vast majority of time times by a p*n*s, in telling HER that SHE is the problem if being forced to see someone with a p*n*s walking around the locker room for females is traumatizing for her, or makes her uncomfortable. Like many people have said, most locker rooms only have a few private stalls, and they are almost always at the back on the room. Which means, you have to walk past all those in the open part of the locker room to get to the private areas. This post is NOT AT ALL INSINUATING that trans women with p*n*ses are automatic rapists; that was your sick twisting of the words of others. You clearly have no empathy for female survivors of sexual assault, a trauma and a horror I truly, genuinely hope you never have to go through! There needs to be separate changing facilities for people who are transgender, both for their safety and the rights to privacy for people who are cis and should not be forced to share private changing areas with those of the opposite sex. Again, sex and gender are NOT the same thing. People with p*n*ises do not belong in changing/ locker rooms that are meant for females. It's that simple.

 

[once_upon]

You can type penis. It's not a forbidden word.

 

[Aussie Willy]

Has anyone else here seen the documentary Disclosure? It is about trans depictions in films and TV. I think it explains a lot about the problem with how trans people have been shown but also how it has reinforced a perception that leads to stereotypes of trans people and not in a good way. I watched it on Netflix last weekend.

 

[carriecmu0503]

Has anyone else here seen the documentary Disclosure? It is about trans depictions in films and TV. I think it explains a lot about the problem with how trans people have been shown but also how it has reinforced a perception that leads to stereotypes of trans people and not in a good way. I watched it on Netflix last weekend.

Advocating for both the rights of trans women and cis women are not mutually exclusive. You can advocate for both trans women rights while also advocating for the rights of cis women. When granting rights to one infringes on the rights of millions, there is a problem. Sadly, there are no easy answers. It is not acceptable to call cis women who are not comfortable with male anatomy in their locker room, or find it unfair to be forced to compete against those who are biological males, biggots, transphobic, etc. Those who do such things need to look in the mirror at who the harassers are.

 

[overedge]

Advocating for both the rights of trans women and cis women are not mutually exclusive. You can advocate for both trans women rights while also advocating for the rights of cis women. When granting rights to one infringes on the rights of millions, there is a problem. Sadly, there are no easy answers.

Certainly there aren't, when someone is making inaccurate generalizations about the opinions of all cis women. Not all cis women feel the same about these issues.

An accurate generalization is that trans women and men are fearful about going into any kind of gendered washroom, locker room, changing room, whatever, because they are worried about being harassed or assaulted by someone who thinks they don't "belong" there. They try to fit in to avoid that. So I really seriously doubt that a trans woman who still has male genitalia is going to go running through a women-only dressing room or washroom waving their junk at everybody.

 

[carriecmu0503]

Certainly there aren't, when someone is making inaccurate generalizations about the opinions of all cis women. Not all cis women feel the same about these issues.

An accurate generalization is that trans women and men are fearful about going into any kind of gendered washroom, locker room, changing room, whatever, because they are worried about being harassed or assaulted by someone who thinks they don't "belong" there. They try to fit in to avoid that. So I really seriously doubt that a trans woman who still has male genitalia is going to go running through a women-only dressing room or washroom waving their junk at everybody.

And yet you STILL ignore a current, relevant article that has just been posted, about a locker room full of cis women who are uncomfortable about being forced to share their locker room with Lia Thomas, who still has make genitals that she does not cover up in the locker room. They also feel uncomfortable with her seeing them naked in the locker room. Can you HONESTLY say all of them are he problem? Would you tell them all they are transphobic to their faces? Do the rights to privacy not apply to any of them?

 

[Trillian]

Advocating for both the rights of trans women and cis women are not mutually exclusive. You can advocate for both trans women rights while also advocating for the rights of cis women.

Sure someone can do that, but that’s not what you’re doing here. Every single post you’ve made in this thread is advocating for the rights of cis women at the expense of trans women.

It is not acceptable to call cis women who are not comfortable with male anatomy in their locker room, or find it unfair to be forced to compete against those who are biological males, biggots, transphobic, etc. Those who do such things need to look in the mirror at who the harassers are.

If you’re insulted by being called transphobic, a good way to avoid that is to stop referring to trans women as “males” and publicly advocating for them to be marginalized. Repeating your own words back to you is not harassment. If you don’t want to be called transphobic, don’t say transphobic things.

 

[Pink Cats]

Do people really think a trans woman needs reconstructive surgery in the genital area to be able to be recognized as a woman or a trans woman? That makes me question just how many trans women those people have actually met and conversed with. Anyway, many trans women still have their penises for a variety of reasons and many trans men also choose to keep their vaginas, some are due to the costs of such procedures, and others are personal reasons (for trans men, there's lots of reasons many opt not to get a penis), and for others still, some do not want to sterilize themselves. There's a reason why many more progressive states in the U.S. who already went through this debate a long time ago got rid of their medical procedures requirement for those who seek to change their gender markers on official documents.

Quite frankly I am not sure what someone means when they say they feel they are a woman/girl regardless of whether or not they are philologically female. My sense of self is not tied up in my gender.

I don’t believe a trans woman needs reconstructive surgery in the genital area to be able to be recognized as a woman or a trans woman. But I am not comfortable with the idea that anyone can declare themselves to be a trans woman and immediately move into spaces that are reserved for those who are philologically female.

 

[Kateri]

Nobody's body is inherently a threat. Flesh comes in different forms, and penises are not a big deal, or remotely predatory. It's completely unfair to expect other people to segregate themselves based on someone's alleged trauma over their body. If I'm assaulted by a blonde, I can hardly demand that no blondes share a changing room with me. This is not how human rights work, and not so long ago, white people were howling like this over the idea of sharing facilities with black people.

This obsession with people's genitalia is gross and dehumanising, and a complete and ongoing nightmare for trans people who do NOT want to have to deal with this.

Personally, as a non-gender-comforming cis woman, the people I'm scared of in public bathrooms are other cis women trying to police who can and can't be there based on their incredibly arrogant and bigoted judgement. They can feck right off.

 

[Pink Cats]

Sure someone can do that, but that’s not what you’re doing here. Every single post you’ve made in this thread is advocating for the rights of cis women at the expense of trans women.



If you’re insulted by being called transphobic, a good way to avoid that is to stop referring to trans women as “males” and publicly advocating for them to be marginalized. Repeating your own words back to you is not harassment. If you don’t want to be called transphobic, don’t say transphobic things.

She didn't say they were male she said they had male anatomy, there is a difference.

 

[Trillian]

Personally, as a non-gender-comforming cis woman, the people I'm scared of in public bathrooms are other cis women trying to police who can and can't be there based on their incredibly arrogant and bigoted judgement. They can feck right off.

That’s an important point, and thanks for saying that. What gets lost in these conversations is the fact that all this yelling about trans women is part of a much larger pattern of policing what is and isn’t acceptable in terms of women’s bodies. And that hurts a lot of people in a lot of different ways.

She didn't say they were male she said they had male anatomy, there is a difference.

She referred to trans women as “biological males” repeatedly. Using correct pronouns for someone doesn’t make it okay to say “she’s a woman, but she’s not a real woman” over and over again.

 

[aka_gerbil]

A penis is the male sexual organ in reproductive intercourse, so it is accurate to describe a penis as male anatomy.

 

[Trillian]

A penis is the male sexual organ in reproductive intercourse, so it is accurate to describe a penis as male anatomy.

Nobody said it’s isn’t. Some of us just acknowledge that sometimes women have them, and we think it’s weird to be so hyper focused on who does or doesn’t have one. I’m not aware of any mainstream sports where players use their penises on the field of play (on purpose, anyway), so it seems pretty irrelevant here.

 

[Lemonade20]

It's really icky to be discussing what size breasts a hypothetical MTF trans skater might have.

Or for any skater to be honest. I know there's been a lot of discussion about hormones, but I would rather see the skaters prove themselves through skating instead of how they appear. Not everyone will transition completely, but we should welcome everyone to try. Judging people before they even step on the ice? Why?

 

[Pink Cats]

She referred to trans women as “biological males” repeatedly. Using correct pronouns for someone doesn’t make it okay to say “she’s a woman, but she’s not a real woman” over and over again.

1. Let's be frank trans women are biologically male and nothing is going to change that and there are things about being biologically female that they should be happy not to have to experience.
2. There is no such thing as a real woman. I am a 56-year-old single woman who has never been married and does not have kids and many people would not view me as a real woman. In fact, I was told that to my face when I was in my early 30s.
3. Have you thought that maybe the person that carriecmu0503 is talking about is herself?

 

[overedge]

1. Let's be frank trans women are biologically male and nothing is going to change that and there are things about being biologically female that they should be happy not to have to experience.
2. There is no such thing as a real woman. I am a 56-year-old single woman who has never been married and does not have kids and many people would not view me as a real woman. In fact, I was told that to my face when I was in my early 30s.

Either there's no such thing as gender (your point #2) or there is (your point #1). Make up your mind.

 

[overedge]

Or for any skater to be honest. I know there's been a lot of discussion about hormones, but I would rather see the skaters prove themselves through skating instead of how they appear. Not everyone will transition completely, but we should welcome everyone to try. Judging people before they even step on the ice? Why?

Adult skating doesn't have the same rules as Olympics & Worlds, but there is/was a competitor at US Adult Nationals who was raised as a male and who now uses feminine pronouns, but who competes in the men's division. I don't recall anyone throwing a hissy fit about that and saying that she could compete with the women.

‘Gender illusionist’ wins skating competition

Ong takes gold at Pacific Coast Adult sectionals

www.losangelesblade.com

 

[carriecmu0503]

Sure someone can do that, but that’s not what you’re doing here. Every single post you’ve made in this thread is advocating for the rights of cis women at the expense of trans women.



If you’re insulted by being called transphobic, a good way to avoid that is to stop referring to trans women as “males” and publicly advocating for them to be marginalized. Repeating your own words back to you is not harassment. If you don’t want to be called transphobic, don’t say transphobic things.

You literally put words in my mouth and twist everything I say. I am literally done with you. You don’t care about the rights of cis women at all. Every single thing you’ve said is advocating for trans women at the expense of cis women. Once again, and for the absolute last time, sex and gender are not the same thing. You are literally a terrible person, and I’m done with you. Why do we even bother having private spaces for women at all? Why do I even bother with women sports? Clearly, a bunch of you on here don’t understand that sex and gender are not the same thing. Unfortunately, whether you like it or not penises are often used as weapons to victimize women. It is not transphobic for a cis woman to say they would like to be able to use private spaces meant for females without having penises in that space. As for me saying that cis women or trans women are not real women, I absolutely never said that. You put those words in my mouth! However, the medical community differentiates between the two because trans women are biological males and thus, have different medical needs! Are you able to comprehend that? Goodbye and good riddance. For those of you who have been willing to actually hear what I have to say and even advocate for me, I thank you very much!

 

[bladesofgorey]

Everyone heard what you said loud and clear.

 

[aka_gerbil]

In my mind biological sex is tied to reproduction (yes, there are people who choose to not reproduce or are infertile and cannot reproduce). In terms of reproduction via sex, the male produces sperm, carrying an X or Y chromosome. Sperm is transmitted out of the body through the male genital organ, the penis. Reproductively, the female gamete is the egg, which has an X chromosome. Eggs are stored in the ovaries, are fertilized in the Fallopian tubes with sperm that came from the egg, and the resulting embryo develops in the uterus. Reproductively, males and females have different gametes and have different organs used in the reproductive process.

Gender is a social construct.

Gender and Reproductive sex are not the same thing.

Trans people are when their reproductive sex and gender do not match. A trans women (again caveats for infertility) is born with the physical ability to make sperm and has the physical organs to transmit that sperm out of the body.

Being a woman is so many things that I won’t put a label on what being a real one is. Both cis and trans women run the gamut from being married or not, having kids or not, being interested in clothes/makeup or not, so on and so forth.

 

[MacMadame]

Quite frankly I am not sure what someone means when they say they feel they are a woman/girl regardless of whether or not they are philologically female. My sense of self is not tied up in my gender.

That's the privilege of being cis. But if people started telling that you are a boy or want to be a boy or have penis envy, you would probably have a strong reaction of "no! I'm female!" It's part of your identity that you aren't forced to constantly think about because your parts match.

 

[Trillian]

You are literally a terrible person,

Thanks for the feedback and I hope all the trans women appreciate your sincere allyship if you succeed in getting them banned from sports. Best wishes!

 

[Pink Cats]

Either there's no such thing as gender (your point #2) or there is (your point #1). Make up your mind.

No I said biological sex and gender are two seperate things. You can change your gender but not your sex.

 

[overedge]

No I said biological sex and gender are two seperate things. You can change your gender but not your sex.

Not to further feed the misguided obsession with body parts, but if a trans woman has gender-confirming surgery that alters their "biological male" physical features, it could be argued that they are no longer male. And please don't say yes, but she could have broad shoulders, be tall, etc etc, because there are women who have those physical characteristics too.

 

[Trillian]

Not to further feed the misguided obsession with body parts, but if a trans woman has gender-confirming surgery that alters their "biological male" physical features, it could be argued that they are no longer male. And please don't say yes, but she could have broad shoulders, be tall, etc etc, because there are women who have those physical characteristics too.

That’s a really important point. People aren’t classified in terms of biological sex based on one single physical characteristic. It’s a set of characteristics, there’s a surprising amount of variation and range for “normal” among them, and some of them can be changed (or change on their own). If we could really draw such a neat and tidy box around biological sex, “sex testing” for the purpose of sports wouldn’t have been such a failure. Biology is not as neat and tidy as the “you can’t change your biological sex” crowd keeps insisting.

 

[aka_gerbil]

Biological or reproductive sex has a bimodal distribution. As a whole population, almost all humans fall into one of two distinct groups whether you’re talking chromosomes, gametes, or physical structure. There is variation within each of the two separate groups, but it is very much two separate peaks.
There are a very small fraction or percent that fall in between (intersex) or at the left and right extremes of the distribution. You cannot change testes to ovaries or a set of XY chromosomes into XX.

 

[overedge]

I don't believe that gender-conforming surgery removes testes and replaces them with ovaries, or vice versa. But we're talking about skating (or at least we were). Having that kind of surgery is not going to give anyone a physical advantage in skating.

 

[MacMadame]

There is variation within each of the two separate groups, but it is very much two separate peaks.

I'm not sure what you mean. There are certainly some men who are shorter than some women, have smaller hearts, less bone density, etc. I see this as more of a spectrum where, when you draw boundaries around all the women and all the men, there will be overlap on every characteristic.

 

[Trillian]

Biological or reproductive sex has a bimodal distribution. As a whole population, almost all humans fall into one of two distinct groups whether you’re talking chromosomes, gametes, or physical structure. There is variation within each of the two separate groups, but it is very much two separate peaks.

But we’re still defining biological sex based on a collection of characteristics rather than a single characteristic, correct? And some of those characteristics can be altered significantly during a person’s lifetime. So is there a point at which those characteristics could be changed so much that it no longer makes sense to classify a person within the group to which they were previously assigned? If not, what are the immutable traits that keep a person firmly on one side of that distribution or the other, regardless of what else changes? Not trying to pick a fight - genuinely curious.

Intersex people may be a relatively small percentage of the population, but they’ve been a pretty significant part of the history of determining who does and doesn’t qualify to compete in women’s sports. It’s interesting that trans women, who really haven’t made that much impact in elite sports, are the subject of so much scrutiny, while intersex people tend to be erased from the conversation.

 

[once_upon]

There are several chromosomal make up other than a XX or XY. Biological sex markers are not black and white, no matter how much yelling some posters do.