ISU to propose expansion of Worlds fields; 2020 Worlds unlikely to be rescheduled

[misskarne]

@misskarne let me ask you this- what would your bare minimum requirement be for the senior men? In ladies we can say 3+2, 3 individual jump, 2A, etc. because those are required to receive full credit for the SP jump elements, but what would you say is fair for the men? And ETA- like you did with the ladies, how would you increase it for the LP? ETA2- it was actually @gkelly with the suggestion. What would you say?

Ultimately, the men have the same requirements for the SP as the ladies. So I wouldn't object to a 3-2, 3, and 2A building the bare minimum. As @gkelly points out men are more likely to get harder jumps with lesser skating skills, so maybe pop it up a little. The TES being built off 3Lz-2T, 3F, and 2A is not a terrible idea, as long as the 25.10 is achievable for skaters who don't have those jumps but may have strengths in other areas.

Is this more the kind of field that people want to see? Less? Or should it really go to the potential 54 entries that started the whole debate?

Yes. The kind of field that you just noted is much fairer. I recognise most of those names from 4CC or Bs that I've watched and none of them would be a disgrace or a danger at Worlds. I don't see why they shouldn't have the opportunity as well.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Also, the changes with them itemizing every element was the start of gymnastics killing choreography.

I disagree: I think the start of gymnastics killing choreography was when they stopped rewarding programs that were movement throughout, and started to rewards stops and set-ups and posy-posy throughout. Which is similar to what I think tried to kill skating choreography, ie, the long set-ups for harder jumps.

 

[VGThuy]

I disagree: I think the start of gymnastics killing choreography was when they stopped rewarding programs that were movement throughout, and started to rewards stops and set-ups and posy-posy throughout. Which is similar to what I think tried to kill skating choreography, ie, the long set-ups for harder jumps.

I think it's a bit of both. Jackie Fie started it with that 1997-2000 code and it just continued further with the 10.00 SV being difficult to obtain and the overvaluation of those dance elements/jumps/leaps. Then the scoring system changed to adding the difficulty up with the D-score and the judging became heavily deduction-prone, encouraging them to do the stop and pose style movement so the judges couldn't deduct for fake sticks/saves, and gymnasts were trying to do the most difficult non-acro elements to build up the score which requires set up (like you said). Gone was fluidity and movement. Nellie Kim has also been killing WAG little by little since the 1980s.

 

[Rhino]

We're no longer in an "everything is on TV particularly one of the broadcast networks" world and I don't think we'll ever go back to that. In fact, I think the future will be one where pretty much everything is streamed and there won't even be cable or broadcast networks anymore except as companies that produce streaming content and/or run streaming channels.

Therefore, whether or not figure skating is shown "on tv" is irrelevant because tv is dying and will soon be dead.

This may well be true, or at least for niche sports, but where do you get the future fans or skaters from?

For example I'm in the UK, and while events were being streamed on the Skating ISU channel, I would estimate there was a maximum of 5,000 people, and probably very considerably less than that, that were watching at any one time, and even for the most popular event.

I would be very interested if anyone here can lay out a plan/vision for the Skating ISU channel that is going to increase the popularity of the sport, rather than acting as some sort of stop gap in the absence of TV coverage, as I can't see how casual fans (who end up going to arenas) and potential future skaters are going to come across it.

In the absence of TV coverage any potential new fan/skater is therefore only likely to come across the sport every 4 years i.e. at the Olympics, and I can't see any way that that is going to grow the sport going forwards. Hence why it is important to strengthen the World Championships as much as possible within reason, and give the TV companies as much reason as possible to show it while you've got the chance, otherwise you really will be stuck with the 'fan only' route of streaming etc.

 

[skategal]

I really can’t see Worlds being held in Canada in the Fall. I really doubt if our border restrictions will be lessened by then.

The Prime Minister said to expect some social distancing restrictions to be in place until there is a vaccine (I am assuming some of these would be border/travel.)

 

[Jammers]

Just stick a fork in the World championships and call it a season. Move on to hopefully having a season later on this year though it might be a shorter one then usual.

 

[gkelly]

Which is similar to what I think tried to kill skating choreography, ie, the long set-ups for harder jumps.

Which more or less started about the same time that figures went away (early 1990s), when jump content started to be the most objective determinant of the winners.

But that also started to be when more skaters were hiring choreographers rather than just doing it themselves with their coaches, and choosing more coherent musical selections, compared to what we heard in the 1980s and earlier.

It's just that most skaters didn't bother doing much of interest between the jump setups in the 1990s and early 2000s. But the arm movements were often meaningful.

IJS at least offered rewards for adding back more skating content between the elements, but maybe less for keeping it thematic.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Even if the World Championships were rescheduled for October, everyone is going to be so rusty being away from on-ice training, who knows what kind of technical level everyone will achieve.

I'm reminded of when I attended US Nationals many years ago, and one person I spoke to thought that once skaters had their elements, they didn't have to practice them.

I told them the story of Christopher Dean, and how he said that if he was away from practice even one day, he felt the struggle. Two days, and the fans saw it.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I told them the story of Christopher Dean, and how he said that if he was away from practice even one day, he felt the struggle. Two days, and the fans saw it.

Ballet dancers say if that about missing classes: one day, they see it; two days, fellow dancers see it, and three days, the audience sees it.

But dancers also say that when they return from major injury, there are always ways they come back stronger, because they "unlearn" bad habits and re-learn some of the basics, and also, they get to heal a lot of nagging injuries that caused weakness and bigger injury when they tried to compensate for them.

I'm hoping that skaters, dancers, and other athletes, as well as workers who do a lot of physical activity, are getting to heal some of those while confined to home and come out the end of this stronger and healthier in some ways.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

I am also wondering how many skaters will be able to find the money to continue training and competing.

I have friends who work in the arts, and the bottom really has fallen out of their world with everything cancelled. Not only have their PLAN A jobs gone, but many of them are in hospitality to support themselves between gigs. So, their PLAN B work has disappeared as well.

Even though we are told to stay indoors at home, I don't much feel like going out, even to grocery shop. Everyone I see looks so sad and defeated.

 

[Foolhardy Ham Lint]

Which more or less started about the same time that figures went away (early 1990s), when jump content started to be the most objective determinant of the winners.

But that also started to be when more skaters were hiring choreographers rather than just doing it themselves with their coaches, and choosing more coherent musical selections, compared to what we heard in the 1980s and earlier.

It's just that most skaters didn't bother doing much of interest between the jump setups in the 1990s and early 2000s. But the arm movements were often meaningful.

IJS at least offered rewards for adding back more skating content between the elements, but maybe less for keeping it thematic.

I guess the flip side to watching IJS versus 6.0, is that there is so much choreography and content packed into current skating routines, I sometimes struggle to take it all in. In some ways, I miss the spacial elegance offered by skaters such as Robin Cousins, Dorothy Hamill, and Underhill and Martini.

The limits imposed by IJS tend to make everyone look the same, too. It takes a very special skater or team to put their own stamp on the sport.

 

[Bellanca]

In the absence of TV coverage any potential new fan/skater is therefore only likely to come across the sport every 4 years i.e. at the Olympics, and I can't see any way that that is going to grow the sport going forwards.

I think that's already happened. The sport has been a 4yr sport for a while - and it's only the die-hards that stream comps and follow it faithfully.

Eta: important to note that even before we all tucked ourselves away into our homes, other sports had been on the downside, too. However, skating/ice dancing suffers greatly with maintaining relevancy on a regular basis. Recent events are like a stake to the heart, unfortunately.

The sport will survive, but these are tough days.

 

[MacMadame]

This may well be true, or at least for niche sports, but where do you get the future fans or skaters from?

YouTube videos. And other social media platforms.

The world has changed and we need to change our thinking about how to see and share figure skating IMO.

 

[tony]

Instagram and Facebook where the skaters themselves can share content. There’s a video circulating now of a young man.. probably about 10 years old.. practicing his skating spins off the ice and when I saw it the day it had been posted, it already had over a million views.

ETA- here it is. https://m.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=2327093420921545&id=100008627294507

 

[gkelly]

Do we have any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that watching short viral videos of skating prompts anyone to seek out competitions to view?

 

[tony]

Do we have any evidence, anecdotal or otherwise, that watching short viral videos of skating prompts anyone to seek out competitions to view?

If you follow me on Instagram (some people here do), I post clips sometimes either of funny moments or just highlights from competitions and I’ve gotten people asking for more. 99% of my following there knows nothing about skating. When I posted a Gracie clip from Nationals, I had people asking for the link to the entire skate. When Savchenko and Massot won the Olympic gold medal, I posted a tiny clip of me playing their LP music on piano with the story of how they had just won, and I had people asking to see it.

Starr Andrews had her Whip My Hair clip blow up when she was younger, and maybe that and that alone helped contribute interest to younger kids and the African American community.

Honestly, whether it’s 1 person or 500 asking, it’s people interested enough to explore a little more. Most people are not going to be serious skating fans, searching for links to competitions that take place at 3AM. And that’s okay.

ETA- even my skin care doctor, the last time I was there, was telling me how she watched a clip on the news of a girl getting her hair stuck in her partners costume (Gilles at Canadian Nationals) and she got on YouTube to watch more. These little clips or instances are better than nothing and for that we should be happy.

 

[MacMadame]

ETA- even my skin care doctor, the last time I was there, was telling me how she watched a clip on the news of a girl getting her hair stuck in her partners costume (Gilles at Canadian Nationals) and she got on YouTube to watch more. These little clips or instances are better than nothing and for that we should be happy.

They are very similar to watching skating on a Sat. on Wide World of Sports.

 

[clairecloutier]

They are very similar to watching skating on a Sat. on Wide World of Sports.

I don't know. I think what Tony's talking about is mostly isolated weird, odd, or funny incidents.

Wide World of Sports may have been truncated and only showed the top skaters, but it still was presented as a legitimate competition and not just odd highlights.

 

[mjb52]

Shcherbakova's costume change did well too iirc.

 

[tony]

But viral videos are the name of the game for almost anything right now. Do you think most people, unless they are absolute die-hard posting on sport-specific message boards, are watching these events live? Football, yes. Pretty much every Olympic sport- no. But millions of people see clips of stand-out or unique performances because of YouTube suggestions or the off chance of notification sent to the phone (like in the Olympics with Nathan Chen’s short program), or more than anything- people sharing links via Facebook or Instagram.

I’m confused what we are even debating at this point. Social media is EVERYTHING now for the target audiences of just about anything you can think of. Television, as pointed out by several people already, isn’t a huge deal anymore because there’s not a do or die aspect to not being able to see something if the original broadcast is missed.

I know this board skews older and it’s not a bad thing, but social media is just about all that matters right now in terms of making things visible. And if you’re looking at the 35 or so or younger group, it’s ALL about Instagram specifically.

We should be happy for any promotion of figure skating at all, but also we have to keep in mind that the times are completely different.

 

[MacMadame]

We should be happy for any promotion of figure skating at all, but also we have to keep in mind that the times are completely different.

The important point I think people need to "get" is that a sport isn't going to die if it's not shown on TV. TV is not the be-all and end-all anymore. Lots of things aren't shown on tv and they are doing great and making lots of money.

 

[VGThuy]

Right. Social media is really where everything is at now. Most people watch things way after the fact. The difference between skating and the big sports is that the latter garner high ratings with a huge fan base to keep watching games live. That said, they still rely on highlights and big plays to go viral afterwards to keep interest and hype up. Skating at least is still shown on NBC proper on prime time. Sure it may only be ladies with some highlights, but that’s better than the great majority of Olympic sports. Honestly, we’re lucky we follow the premier sport of the Winter Olympics that gets the primo spots when it comes around. Many sports don’t get close to what skating gets for such a low rated sport where Skate America has trouble packing in arenas.

 

[gkelly]

As you say, this board does skew older demographically.

But not one person has chosen "Watching online" in the poll I posted in the trash can about first exposure to figure skating.

So I'm wondering if there are younger fans who became skating fans because they first saw skating online.

 

[VGThuy]

Many of them don't post on the forums for a myriad of reasons. They choose Twitter, Tumblr, Instagram, Discord, and other avenues to communicate with one another. As for the forums, I think Goldenskate probably has more younger viewers than we do.

 

[MacMadame]

So I'm wondering if there are younger fans who became skating fans because they first saw skating online.

You need to ask where they are: Instagram, YouTube, etc.

ETA @VGThuy and I were posting at the same time

 

[VGThuy]

You need to ask where they are: Instagram, YouTube, etc.

Yeah, message boards for skating fandom are like what Facebook is for social media.

 

[tony]

A big part of why I never really loved the Twitter scene and don’t really engage in any comments sections of something like that or on Instagram is because I find it hard to follow. Maybe my brain has been wired to expect nice things presented in the way that message board threads display them, without comments branching off in every direction and especially without having the trolls or clueless comments that are so often found on the more modern media. I think many others here would probably say the same thing. I’ve been on the message boards for.. 22+ years now? and on FSU for 20 years. I think we just grew used to that flow and I personally feel like that’s part of my problem with using the platforms to have any real in-depth conversations in regards to a particular post. Facebook is better about presentation, but Facebook is absolutely dying out too. I said here a few years ago that while I’m working, the first thing people ask for is my Instagram handle. Not my number, not my Facebook, not anything else... and it’s still the case. Instagram took over probably about 4 or 5 years ago at this point and it hasn’t looked back.

Now, I use Instagram to post my own stuff and include stories almost every day, which result in a lot of interaction within my direct messages. I find myself using that as a way to converse much more than texting itself and I think it may be true of many other people, as well. But I would never use it as a platform to discuss skating in-depth. To get comments like ‘Wow! Cool!‘- yes.

I know I’m getting older and grumpier though, because many (young) people during isolation have moved their way over to Tik Tok and are constantly pushing out new videos. I don’t see the appeal of it at all

 

[VGThuy]

Not gonna lie, I'm amazed with what people can do on TikTok. Some of them show real skill and creativity.

 

[Vagabond]

When @Tony Wheeler starts talking about "the young people these days," I know I am getting old(ish).

 

[MacMadame]

I agree with Tony. I don't really "get" Twitter or Instagram even though I have accounts on there. And I don't even have an account WhatsApp or TikTok or SnapChat.