ISU to propose expansion of Worlds fields; 2020 Worlds unlikely to be rescheduled

[Tinami Amori]

I think this is the answer you're looking.

*In this new proposal, there would be 24 direct entries to a 36-skater short program field in singles, 16 of 24 in pairs and 20 of 30 in dance. The remainder would come from order of finish in the qualifying round.

Thank you! one more question: in singles, what would be the qualifying criteria for making the "seeded" 24?

 

[barbarafan]

In theory that would be nice, to see a one-time larger field because of the cancellation. However, there’s just not a realistic way to do it. Russia with their three spots in every discipline might see 5 or 6 ‘improved’ skaters or teams (or 20 ladies). Where’s the cut-off? If you do three per nation, that’s giving a country like Canada two additional men but not giving the USA anything. It’s also opening up the potential for a HUGE set of competitors at Worlds, even more than we are talking now and there’s not even going to be a Congress before the event (most likely) to determine any new rules or an earlier qualifying round. The judges have had to sit through 50+ skater short programs and I don’t think any of them love it.

It’s a pre-Olympic Worlds with a lot at stake for that event so I think they just have to pull the numbers from 2020. If you have 6 Russian skaters competing and they all finish in the top 6, then what are the new rules for 2022 going to be regarding multiple entries? In this scenario, no other country would be able to attain 3 entries even though 2022 Olympics obviously won’t have 6 Russian entries (in one discipline) in the field.. I know someone is going to say remove their placements from the final results to determine the 2022 spots. Nah. It’s just not going to happen.

I think there should be limits per country and per events to give a chance to a few up and comers. ex: each country gets one comp. or team per event and 2 more entries that they can choose 2 events to put the entries in. so that is 6 extra entries in all. If someone drops out fr.2020entries they do not refill the spot. So worse case scenario-(or best for Russia) Ladies could have 3 from 2020 +2 for 5 ladies...if a lady is injured or retired fr.2020 team they would have 4. If they choose pairs for an extra...it would be the same....that would leave 1 extra man and ice dance team.
For Canada with 1 man....they could end up with 3. If they chose ice dance it would be a total of 5. With 1 extra pair and 1 extra lady...so 4 pairs and 3 ladies. I think something like that would work....They should have at least 1 extra day anyways for some sort of memorium for those who have died and will die this yr.

Sorry I am CDN & spent some time at the store this afternoon...Quarantine Mtl Style...."Oh here I'll move away" "No No..it's no problem I will move" "Oh Pls let me get out of your way".etc etc etc ...Maybe we will lose weight.

 

[starrynight]

Maybe this just needs to be a way to deal with the next worlds.

Skaters from small feds are going to be doing it tough. The rinks are closed (heck one rink in Madrid got turned into a morgue), there is no funding and people have lost their jobs. Chances are making them reach a high tech minimum would just kill any chance of going to Worlds. And probably really damage any incentive to keep paying to train.

I think this is a fair idea for the next worlds. When the world is back on its feet, they can reintroduce tech minimums.

So many skaters are going to have to put in huge amounts of work just to get jumps back that they normally always just had.

Not every skater is from a big Fed and has been funded during this break and will be able to get back on the ice straight away.

 

[Orm Irian]

Maybe this just needs to be a way to deal with the next worlds.

Skaters from small feds are going to be doing it tough. The rinks are closed, there is no funding and people have lost their jobs. Chances are making them reach a high tech minimum would just kill any chance of going to Worlds. And probably really damage any incentive to keep paying to train.

I think this is a fair idea for the next worlds. When the world is back on its feet, they can reintroduce tech minimums.

So many skaters are going to have to put in huge amounts of work just to get jumps back that they normally always just had.

Not every skater is from a big Fed and has been funded during this break and will be able to get back on the ice straight away.

This proposal isn't for next Worlds; it's supposed to start in the next Olympic quadrennium.

I like it in general, but expanding access to Worlds via a qualifying round while not expanding access to places in the SP is counterproductive and kind of patronising. Like, we'll give you access to Worlds but not the 'real' competition, that's reserved for known quantities, be happy we're pretending some of the charity places might go to any povvo scum that get lucky on the day...

Extremely glad to hear that they're not expanding maximum access for any countries, though. The last thing we need is more homogenisation of the field; it's dire enough already. Three per country is enough; in fact, make it like Four Continents and have three for every country, simple as.

 

[tony]

Extremely glad to hear that they're not expanding maximum access for any countries, though. The last thing we need is more homogenisation of the field; it's dire enough already. Three per country is enough; in fact, make it like Four Continents and have three for every country, simple as.

Then you have even more skaters than the ISU proposal and many skaters who probably shouldn’t be there. I don’t think there’s any way around the spots issue besides handing out wildcard spots which are not guaranteed to anyone- such as at the GPF.

 

[MacMadame]

I don’t believe ISU or any other outlet has ever aired a full qualifying round.

I don't think there has been a qualifying round at Worlds since streaming became mainstream. The last qualifying rounds were in the early 2000s with the last one being in 2006. (Not counting 2012 which I consider an anomaly.) That was a lifetime ago in both sports time and internet time.

But that isn't really my issue. My issue is that you seem to be saying that if the programs don't end up on tv/streaming, there was no point in that skater going to Worlds and I am pretty sure those skaters who get to the qualifying rounds but don't get on tv would not agree.

 

[tony]

I don't think there has been a qualifying round at Worlds since streaming became mainstream. The last qualifying rounds were in the early 2000s with the last one being in 2006. (Not counting 2012 which I consider an anomaly.) That was a lifetime ago in both sports time and internet time.

But that isn't really my issue. My issue is that you seem to be saying that if the programs don't end up on tv/streaming, there was no point in that skater going to Worlds and I am pretty sure those skaters who get to the qualifying rounds but don't get on tv would not agree.

2011 and 2012 both had preliminary rounds.

And if in my entire post the only thing you got from me was since they wouldn’t be broadcast, they shouldn’t go- I don’t know what to tell you. The ISU wants to supposedly increase fields to get more exposure out there- but for who? The small population watching early-round qualifying who are already familiar with the skaters and the judging panel?

 

[overedge]

But that isn't really my issue. My issue is that you seem to be saying that if the programs don't end up on tv/streaming, there was no point in that skater going to Worlds. I am pretty sure those skaters who get to the qualifying rounds but don't get on tv would not agree.

Just like getting to Nationals is an achievement for many skaters, who know they have no chance of a medal, getting to compete at Worlds is also an achievement. It can make a huge difference for that skater, not only in Worlds being one of the highlights of their career, but also in terms of opening up future opportunities (shows, coaching, etc.) The qualifying rounds don't have to be televised or streamed for someone to be able to put "World team member" or "Worlds competitor" on their resume.

 

[tony]

Just like getting to Nationals is an achievement for many skaters, who know they have no chance of a medal, getting to compete at Worlds is also an achievement. It can make a huge difference for that skater, not only in Worlds being one of the highlights of their career, but also in terms of opening up future opportunities (shows, coaching, etc.) The qualifying rounds don't have to be televised or streamed for someone to be able to put "World team member" or "Worlds competitor" on their resume.

Many skaters are getting plenty of opportunity to compete in competitions throughout the fall- much more so now than even 10 years ago and obviously more than in the 6.0 days. I get it- Worlds is something they can say they accomplished. Whether they were at Worlds or not isn’t going to determine whether they are in a skating show, though.

But then the whole technical score thing is out the window and the motivation to improve content likely goes down.

I’m all for a pre-Worlds qualifying competition that fills out the rest of the field of however many they want. But I’m not in favor of Worlds going back to 50+ entries only for the ISU to decide they don’t have the money to continue it.

PS- @overedge you are aware that USFS followed suit this year and some skaters, especially in the mens field who would’ve qualified placement-wise from sectionals were left out of Nationals because of minimums, right? And the difference for all the major Nationals is there IS a cap on the amount of entries. USFS is using set criteria and a qualifying system, Skate Canada is using set criteria and a qualifying event, Russia and Japan cap their entries via qualifying, etc. This ISU proposal is saying give almost every country a spot at Worlds just because.

 

[gkelly]

I like it in general, but expanding access to Worlds via a qualifying round while not expanding access to places in the SP is counterproductive and kind of patronising. Like, we'll give you access to Worlds but not the 'real' competition, that's reserved for known quantities, be happy we're pretending some of the charity places might go to any povvo scum that get lucky on the day...

The 24 direct entries would be known quantities.

The additional 12 skaters who advance from quals to SP might be fairly well known but didn't meet whatever the direct entry criteria would be for one reason or another. It'd be interesting to know what those criteria will be. Returning from a lost season due to injury would probably be one such reason.

Others may be sufficiently talented newcomers who use the opportunity to make themselves known.

Many of them will have already competed at Euros or 4Cs, so they're known to officials and diehard fans who keep up with those events. Or first year seniors who didn't quite make the JGPF or final group at Junior Worlds but are known to officials and fans who follow juniors.

With only 24 slots available in the free skate, some skaters who are well worthy of a spot there on a good day might fail to make it that far -- whether becaues of a bad SP, a bad qual round, or inability to qualify for their country's world team due to bad nationals or lackluster fall season.

Most of the skaters who get to Worlds but don't make it past quals will not be "povvo scum" or incapable of harder double jumps -- especially if there are relaxed but still existent tech minimums set to require either at least some easy triples or else strong GOEs and high-level spins and steps.

It's more the quality of the PCS skills that would concern me. Personally, I'd rather see stronger skaters with easier jumps than skaters who can do the jumps but not much else. However, given the relative subjectiveness of PCS I understand why those are not used for gatekeeping.

The ISU wants to supposedly increase fields to get more exposure out there- but for who? The small population watching early-round qualifying who are already familiar with the skaters and the judging panel?

Perhaps for home markets of countries that would have skaters competing in the qual rounds, which might draw larger audiences there for the quals than for the finals if the local skater doesn't advance.

 

[MacMadame]

The ISU wants to supposedly increase fields to get more exposure out there- but for who? The small population watching early-round qualifying who are already familiar with the skaters and the judging panel?

See below VVV

Perhaps for home markets of countries that would have skaters competing in the qual rounds, which might draw larger audiences there for the quals than for the finals if the local skater doesn't advance.

Now, I should qualify that I'm not saying this is a good idea. I'm just saying that whether or not all the skaters end up on tv doesn't make it a bad idea. There are plenty of other reasons it's a bad idea.

Btw, what are the chances of it passing? I'd be surprised if it passes.

 

[overedge]

Many skaters are getting plenty of opportunity to compete in competitions throughout the fall- much more so now than even 10 years ago and obviously more than in the 6.0 days. I get it- Worlds is something they can say they accomplished. Whether they were at Worlds or not isn’t going to determine whether they are in a skating show, though.

It might not be the deciding factor, but it would certainly make a difference in getting them noticed for such opportunities.

But then the whole technical score thing is out the window and the motivation to improve content likely goes down.

I would love to see "the technical score thing" go out the window, at any level of national or international competition. At the moment, its main effect at Worlds IMO is to disqualify skaters "on the bubble" but who could have qualified or should qualify as a representative of an ISU member federation. Do you think those skaters are unmotivated to improve their program content or quality?

I'd be in favour of a low minimum technical score to eliminate skaters who might seriously be a danger to others or to themselves, but I'm not in favour of technical scores as a way for the ISU to reduce costs at Worlds. If the ISU doesn't want skaters from Nowherestan in its championships, then it shouldn't have Nowherestan as a member of the federation. I'd sooner see the ISU reduce costs by, oh, I don't know, not running its head office out of a country with one of the world's highest costs of living.

 

[gkelly]

I’m all for a pre-Worlds qualifying competition that fills out the rest of the field of however many they want. But I’m not in favor of Worlds going back to 50+ entries only for the ISU to decide they don’t have the money to continue it.

Wouldn't it be more expensive to have a separate event at a separate location?

Obviously a larger Worlds would be more expensive than a smaller Worlds. But it would probably cost less in total than a smaller worlds plus an additional competition that might be comparable in size to the smaller Worlds/continental championships.

 

[tony]

Wouldn't it be more expensive to have a separate event at a separate location?

Obviously a larger Worlds would be more expensive than a smaller Worlds. But it would probably cost less in total than a smaller worlds plus an additional competition that might be comparable in size to the smaller Worlds/continental championships.

Much like the Olympic qualifying competition goes to a pre-existing event, I don’t see why one of those February or other late competitions can’t be used as a Worlds qualifying. No need to add a competition.

 

[VGThuy]

I honestly don’t care one way of the other as I see the pros and cons of both. I just don’t want the QR to count towards the final scores. IMO, that was stupid. Although, I may just be saying that as a Kwan.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Stupid. Basically sending skaters who really don’t have a shot to make it (to the end) into a qualifying round early in the week that most likely won’t even be televised.

I respectfully disagree.

I think this gives skaters more reason to continue and train. (whenever they finally can.)

With probably a drastic reduction in B comps coming up and maybe no even GP season this could give all skaters at least a chance to "go" to something.

Im so FOR this proposal. Big time.

I can actually see a lot of skaters Not from the big 5-6 countries quitting this year.

 

[tony]

I respectfully disagree.

I think this gives skaters more reason to continue and train. (whenever they finally can.)

With probably a drastic reduction in B comps coming up and maybe no even GP season this could give all skaters at least a chance to "go" to something.

Im so FOR this proposal. Big time.

I can actually see a lot of skaters Not from the big 5-6 countries quitting this year.

Except whether the Congress took place this year or not (likely pushed to June 2021), the changes wouldn't take place until the 2023 season. So said skaters would have to stay in three more years to benefit from this, if it passes.

 

[alchemy void]

This is a rich proposal, coming a couple months after the ISU raised Worlds minimums score two-thirds of the way through the season.

Can we all agree qualifying rounds are dumb and should be left in the past? Why not simply lower the Worlds minimums to the current Euros/4CC threshold? This would allow a significant amount of additional skaters/countries to qualify for and skate in the Worlds SP, many of whom would actually be competitive to make the LP cut.

I love watching C competitions and lower-ranked skaters, but I feel like watching lower-tiered skaters who can't even qualify for Euros/4CCs, skate their LPs in a nervy, pressure-laden environment would be rough.

I do like @Tony Wheeler GPF medalist criteria as a direct qualifier to Worlds. That certainly would heighten the stakes at GPF, which is needed.

Perhaps for home markets of countries that would have skaters competing in the qual rounds, which might draw larger audiences there for the quals than for the finals if the local skater doesn't advance.

If this is actually an issue (not convinced it is), just allow the host country to get 1 or 2 home skaters automatic entry to the short program? The ISU did something like this in the 90s, where Jenna Arrowsmith qualified for the LP at 95 Worlds, despite ranking 29th in the SP, as she was the only entry from the UK, the host country.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Except whether the Congress took place this year or not (likely pushed to June 2021), the changes wouldn't take place until the 2023 season. So said skaters would have to stay in three more years to benefit from this, if it passes.

Oh Dear... for real????? These proposals arent for 20-21????????

You're gonna have to refresh my Kahlua & Baileys many times before then.

 

[tony]

If this is actually an issue (not convinced it is), just allow the host country to get 1 or 2 home skaters automatic entry to the short program? The ISU did something like this in the 90s, where Jenna Arrowsmith qualified for the LP at 95 Worlds, despite ranking 29th in the SP, as she was the only entry from Great Britain, the host country.

Don't think that's an issue either or anywhere on the minds of the ISU officials behind this proposal. Worlds rotates between major powerhouse skating countries aside from a one-off every few years.

The qualifying a skater to the final round rule was around for a long while- from my deduction skills it stopped after the 2009 season. The Bulgarian entry at Junior Worlds was finishing near the very bottom but still making the LP two years in a row in both men and ladies.

 

[ross_hy]

If it's not practical to have Worlds in the fall, but it's still safe to hold a competition, I wonder if the ISU would allow Montreal to host a big warm-up/cheesefest competition like the Japan Open? Throw in lots of $$$ to make up for what skaters couldn't make at Worlds or in touring. It would help Montreal recoup some lost tourism revenue and would be an easy trip for a lot of skaters.

 

[overedge]

Every ISU member federation should be allowed to send at least one representative to Worlds. With the caveat of a very low minimum technical score to eliminate dangerously unqualified skaters - and yes, I know about the Chinese pairs' first few times at Worlds (I saw them in person one of those times). But there's a difference between not being ready yet and being so unready that you pose a hazard to yourself and others. The Chinese skaters weren't in that second category.

 

[gkelly]

This is a rich proposal, coming a couple months after the ISU raised Worlds minimums score two-thirds of the way through the season.

Maybe they realized the error of their ways.

Or more likely different factions within the ISU have different agendas.

Can we all agree qualifying rounds are dumb and should be left in the past? Why not simply lower the Worlds minimums to the current Euros/4CC threshold? This would allow a significant amount of additional skaters/countries to qualify for and skate in the Worlds SP, many of whom would actually be competitive to make the LP cut.

Then we would be back to 50+ skaters in a 9-hour short program event (including resurfaces and meal break for the officials).

There are advantages and disadvantages to any of these approaches.

I agree that counting the qual rounds toward final results is not the way to go. And if they are going to give direct entry to the SP to any skaters, whether 3 or 10 or 24, then there's no way to make the scores from the qual rounds carry over since not everyone will have a score.

But perhaps they could be used for seeding the SP in some way rather than just putting all the qual round skaters before all the direct entry skaters.

I love watching C competitions and lower-ranked skaters, but I feel like watching lower-tiered skaters who can't even qualify for Euros/4CCs, skate their LPs in a nervy, pressure-laden environment would be rough.

So don't watch.

I do like @Tony Wheeler GPF medalist criteria as a direct qualifier to Worlds. That certainly would heighten the stakes at GPF, which is needed.

Yes, fans have mentioned that possibility from time to time over the years. It does have an appeal.

As with any of these selections, details would need to be determined.

And of course the people who want more entries from the strong federations (those federations themselves and their top and almost-top skaters, and also fans wanting to watch more strong skaters at the premier event) have a completely different agenda from those who want more federations represented (mostly the smaller federations -- of which there are many, each with a vote at the ISU congress).

If this is actually an issue (not convinced it is), just allow the host country to get 1 or 2 home skaters automatic entry to the short program? The ISU did something like this in the 90s, where Jenna Arrowsmith qualified for the LP at 95 Worlds, despite ranking 29th in the SP, as she was the only entry from the UK, the host country.

Yes, that's good for a hosting federation without a reasonably strong competitor in each discipline and would only add one skater to the roster. It does screw up the size of the first warmup group though.

But that's not actually what I meant. I just didn't explain clearly enough.
What I meant was that if there are multiple emerging skating nations who have skaters who can compete as seniors but struggle to earn the current minimum tech scores, it would help each of those federations to have television coverage of skating in their home countries. And it might benefit the ISU to sell broadcast rights in more countries. It would be easier to convince the broadcasters in those countries to cover skating if they had an entry in the field pretty much every year.

I don't know how important those broadcast rights sales are to the ISU, but that could be one reason they would want to do it.

 

[tony]

Every ISU member federation should be allowed to send at least one representative to Worlds. With the caveat of a very low minimum technical score to eliminate dangerously unqualified skaters - and yes, I know about the Chinese pairs' first few times at Worlds (I saw them in person one of those times). But there's a difference between not being ready yet and being so unready that you pose a hazard to yourself and others. The Chinese skaters weren't in that second category.

Then you have to apply the same to Four Continents and Europeans and World Juniors, no? It would be confusing to not allow skaters to compete at Europeans but then send them to Worlds anyways. And with all of those extra athletes and additional segments of competition comes a lot more $$$ spent.

By my count, there are 75 current ISU figure skating Federations- obviously not all of them have high-level skaters, but the majority of them have skaters that could go out and skate a program that wasn't 'dangerously unqualified' although still nowhere near a high level.

Using the ladies top 24 results from last years Worlds and factoring the spots gained for 2020 (no minimum scores in play), that's 27 spots from 18 countries. RUS3 KAZ3 JPN3 USA2 KOR2 CAN2 BEL1 AZE1 HKG1 FRA1 GER1 BUL1 SLO1 CHN1 CZE1 GBR1 EST1 BRA1

If all countries start to produce at least one skater capable of being at Senior Worlds, we are looking at a field of 84 somewhere down the line. Don't think so.

 

[overedge]

Then you have to apply the same to Four Continents and Europeans and World Juniors, no? It would be confusing to not allow skaters to compete at Europeans but then send them to Worlds anyways.

World Juniors are also a world championship, so yes, the same inclusivity should apply there. And unless 4Cs and Europeans become qualifiers for worlds, then they're not part of the equation.

By my count, there are 75 current ISU figure skating Federations- obviously not all of them have high-level skaters, but the majority of them have skaters that could go out and skate a program that wasn't 'dangerously unqualified' although still nowhere near a high level.

Using the ladies top 24 results from last years Worlds and factoring the spots gained for 2020 (no minimum scores in play), that's 27 spots from 18 countries. RUS3 KAZ3 JPN3 USA2 KOR2 CAN2 BEL1 AZE1 HKG1 FRA1 GER1 BUL1 SLO1 CHN1 CZE1 GBR1 EST1 BRA1

If all countries start to produce at least one skater capable of being at Senior Worlds, we are looking at a field of 84 somewhere down the line. Don't think so.

Then don't have 84 member federations in the ISU. Or restrict the field to one entry per category.

 

[jeffisjeff]

Maybe they realized the error of their ways.

Or maybe they just wanted to give us something to talk (argue) about during our long isolation?

 

[Dragonlady]

New Phil Hersh article with latest info from the ISU:

Update: ISU Congress postponed to 2021, decision upcoming on rescheduling 2020 figure skating worlds (very likely, "no”), plus my exclusive info on bigger future worlds — Globetrotting by Philip Hersh

Coronavirus-2020 World Figure Skating-2020 Olympics-figure skating

www.globetrottingbyphiliphersh.com

I think the proposed expansion of Worlds fields is very interesting. It would seem to represent a sudden change in policy, as compared to what they've been doing the last few seasons, with raising technical minimums, etc.

I always thought that this decision to limit the field at worlds was penny wise and pound foolish. It gave kids in the non-powerhouse nations little to no chance to ever compete internationally since GP assignments are largely based on marks and placements at the previous year's worlds. I've talked to so many skaters and parents of skaters who were thrilled that their child was going to Worlds, even if they didn't make it out of qualifying.

This drives interest for all of the figure skaters in the smaller nations, not just the ones who make the podium and the TV broadcasts. The Japanese program basically started with Midor Ito, and grew from there. This idea of qualifying for worlds, discourages the growth of the sport, in my opinion.

 

[skatingguy]

Thank you! one more question: in singles, what would be the qualifying criteria for making the "seeded" 24?

If I'm reading this properly it sounds like it would be based on results of the previous worlds with countries earning places directly to the short programs.

*The same process by which nations now qualify for more than one entry in each discipline at the subsequent year’s worlds would apply for direct entries, with the remaining places allocated according to where each country’s top skater finished at that worlds. If the multiple entry numbers exceeded the number of direct places, more direct entries would be added.

 

[MacMadame]

This is a rich proposal, coming a couple months after the ISU raised Worlds minimums score two-thirds of the way through the season.

ISU Proposals come from all over. The small federations often band together to get proposals on the agenda that benefit them while the bigger federations have different priorities.

Personally, I think this proposal won't get very far. It's too expensive to have that many skaters at Worlds. The economics of having a qualifying competition haven't changed.

The qualifying a skater to the final round rule was around for a long while- from my deduction skills it stopped after the 2009 season.

Wikipedia said 2006. But that was only for Seniors. I didn't look up Juniors.

Then you have to apply the same to Four Continents and Europeans and World Juniors, no?

No. Lots of skaters who can't go to Worlds go to 4CC or Euros and not everyone at Worlds went to 4CCs / Euros.

Jr. Worlds is a completely different tract. They do lots of things differently.

 

[misskarne]

This is a rich proposal, coming a couple months after the ISU raised Worlds minimums score two-thirds of the way through the season.

I'm so glad I'm not the only one who had this immediate thought. Although I think the words that came out of my mouth were along the lines of "you fcuking hypocrites".

And as usual, this sort of thread brings out a lot of the pro-big country stuff, such as making auto-qualification from GPF and so forth to increase the number of big country skaters and push out more little country skaters. Cuz obviously filling Worlds with Russian girls matters most and the little country skaters can go jump, amirite?