ISU rules changes proposals & reaction

[gkelly]

I know that people are mostly focusing on the artistic program as being flawed, but what are people’s thoughts on the technical program?

What are the rules of this technical program?

Is it exactly the same as the current short program? Exactly the same as the current freeskate? A different mix of allowed/required elements? TES only, or PCS the same as now or with lower factoring?

Unless we know what the proposed rules would be, we can't have opinions on whether it would be good or bad.

We can have opinions on what kinds of rules we would like to see in such a program.

Or if it's more fun to go negative, to offer opinions on what we think the worst possible rules that could fit the name "technical program" might be.


BTW, I went back and read the first few pages of this thread, which discussed similar topics in a more hypothetical approach.

 

[alchemy void]

This tweet has a couple of screenshots that may shed some light on what they have in mind. It sounds like a disaster to me.

🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️🤷‍♀️ on Twitter

“Since people asked if "artistic and technical program" would be just a new way to call SP and FP, here your answer. Second screenshot describes how PEGGY FLEMING TROPHY "artistic" program works. https://t.co/CqPoZF76Rf”

twitter.com

That screenshot of rules is from the Peggy Flemming Trophy competition. There's absolutely no basis to believe that this is what the ISU envisions for the "artistic program".

As someone who appreciates figure skating as a sport first and foremost, and art secondary (to be more accurate, camp is my #2 priority and art third ), I can't get bent out of shape over this until we know more.

I think there is potential for a freer artistic program, with less restrictive requirements. Maybe no levels on spins, four or five jumping passes. My biggest concern is that the judges are almost unanimously terrible at applying PCS properly. That needs to get addressed before this happens.

 

[alchemy void]

We can have opinions on what kinds of rules we would like to see in such a program.

I'll play.

Segment one. Artistic program.
length: 3-3:30
jumping passes: 3, one two-jump combination is allowed. Priority is placed on aesthetic qualities of the jump, placement in program and relation to music.
spins: 2. no levels.
choreographed step sequence: 1. no levels. judged on musicality, uniqueness, difficulty
40% of total score.
technical score calculated more or less like it is now, judges give ONE score out of 10 for artistry.

Segment two. Technical program.
length 4:00
this is structured similar to current LP.
jumping passes: 7
leveled spins: 2 or 3.
one footwork sequence that is leveled but it's gotta move! must be done within 15 seconds because I am tired of these meandering footwork sequences that take 30 seconds.
60% of total score.

I find it more palpable for the artistic program to come first, and close with the technical program. For those concerned about figure skating's inclusion in the Olympics, this still prioritizes the "sport" aspect.

Problem solved. Best of both worlds. Plz let me know when the ISU technical council wants to hire me as a consultant.

 

[starrynight]

To me the idea of a technical program without a big PCS component to ‘save’ top ranked skaters from big feds when they mess up is a bit ride or die and kind of exciting to me.

I also like the idea of separate medals for each component and then an overall medal.

 

[rosewood]

So there is a new interview with Aleksander Lakernik, who is VP of Figure Skating for the ISU, and, in case anyone is not aware, is the person largely running this sport at the moment.

„Magyarországnak igen jók az esélyei” | Magyar Országos Korcsolyázó Szövetség - MOKSZ

Ismét elfogadta meghívásunkat, és Budapestre látogatott a Nemzetközi Korcsolyázó Szövetség (ISU) első számú alelnöke, Alekszandr Lakernik (Alexander Lakernik), aki, miután előadást tartott a szakmának a friss szabálymódosításokról, idén is technikai kontrollerként értékelte műkorcsolyázóinkat a...

moksz.hu

The interview is in Hungarian and was originally posted at the Planet Hanyu forum.

In it, Lakernik states that there will be proposals before the 2020 ISU Congress to:

1. Re-institute some type of qualifying round at Worlds

2. Replace the current short and long programs with artistic and technical programs

I wanted to read the whole article but I can't open the link you quoted. The alert says the server's IP address of hunskate.humukorcsolya cannot be found.

 

[ShuPa]

I wanted to read the whole article but I can't open the link you quoted. The alert says the server's IP address of hunskate.humukorcsolya cannot be found.

Here's the link: http://hunskate.hu/mukorcsolya/magyarorszagnak-igen-jok-az-eselyei
If you can't open the link go to the main page and you'll find the article there as well: http://hunskate.hu/

 

[Marco]

I'll play too.

I love @alchemy void 's ideas so I will build on them.

Artistic Program

3 minutes - 3 jumps (no combos, no repeats), 3 spins (no levels, constant value of 5 points each), 1 ChSq (no level, constant value of 5 points). GOE for each of these 7 elements should be structured so that +5 = 100% of the element base value and -5 = 0%. First 2 falls is -2 each, then next 2 is -4 each, then next 2 -6 each, etc.

PCS should be factored twice. Firstly, there should be a constant factor so that the PCS value is around 1.5 times of TES (instead of the current 1:1 ratio for both programs). Secondly, there should be a variable multiple so that the PCS can be increased or decreased based on the average GOE % of all elements.

Technical Program

4 minutes - 7 jumping passes in total (all six types take-offs must be attempted, or else the 7th jumping passes receive no value; 3 combos allowed but only if different nature i.e. -3toe, -euler 3sal, -2loop), 3 spins (leveled), 1 StSq (leveled). GOE for each of these 11 elements should be structured so that +5 = 100% of the element base value and -5 = -100%. First 2 falls is -2 each, then next 2 is -4 each, then next 2 -6 each, etc.

PCS should be factored once. There should be a constant factor so that the PCS value is around 1 time of TES (like the current 1:1 ratio for both programs).

 

[Coco]

Technical Program

4 minutes - 7 jumping passes in total (all six types take-offs must be attempted, or else the 7th jumping passes receive no value; 3 combos allowed but only if different nature i.e. -3toe, -euler 3sal, -2loop),

YES, PLEASE!

 

[alchemy void]

I'm totally on board with @Marco 's comprehensive requirements! So good. Seriously, someone in the know pass this to Lakernik.

Secondly, there should be a variable multiple so that the PCS can be increased or decreased based on the average GOE % of all elements.

This is brilliant. I do have concerns about GOE inflation and the implication of tying this to the PCS marks.

PCS should be factored twice. Firstly, there should be a constant factor so that the PCS value is around 1.5 times of TES (instead of the current 1:1 ratio for both programs).

Do you want to keep the PCS categories as is or change them? I suggested one artistic score from each judge because that's more or less what most judges are doing anyways, with so few little variation among the 5 components, it's almost a facade right now. Even from the IJS judging games we've done on FSU in the past, judging 5 different components for 10 skaters is HARD--I can only imagine how difficult it is for 24 or 30 skaters. I think the PCS categories need to be simplified/streamlined somehow.

4 minutes - 7 jumping passes in total (all six types take-offs must be attempted, or else the 7th jumping passes receive no value;

This should have been implemented years ago.

 

[tony]

I like a lot of the ideas presented from just skimming this thread. I've been discussing ideas with some people since the beginning of last season, and I'm probably repeating a lot of ideas already stated, but here's what I've had in mind:

As already addressed, the short program and free program are now basically the same thing. The rules of the short program have been 'loose' for a long time (no required triple/double jump as is required each year in juniors, no combo requirement, etc.) The skaters are maxing out their spins by figuring out the L4's for both programs and just repeating them, and the same thing more or less with the step sequences, which more often than not seem to go on for much longer than needed and only a select few can really get them to have any relation to the music.

So, I do think a technical program and a more artistic program could be a good idea because of the redundancy we see. The technical program should be the potential full-out/maxed versions of every element. So, for senior ladies' singles we will say:

1. A double, triple, or quad Lutz
2. A double, triple, or quad flip
3. A double, triple, or quad loop
4. A double, triple, or quad Salchow
5. A double, triple, or quad toe loop
6. A double or triple Axel
---
For 1-6: one jump may be done in combination with either a double or triple toe loop, or double or triple loop. Most ladies would be attempting 6 triples plus a double Axel.
---
7. A combination spin that shows all three basic positions (camel, sit, upright)
8. A change of edge spin with the same basic position
9. A flying spin with the same basic position that is NOT the same position used in #8
10. A step sequence of any design/shape

These four elements will still be marked on a leveled scale (base to 4, or whatever they would feel like modifying to).

The TES should carry a much heavier weight in this program than the attempted 50:50 that it has currently with PCS.


The artistic program should go the way of what ice dance somewhat opened up into this year with the choreographic elements. There should be looser options in this program than continuing with current rules and just saying- do a spin with 4 features so you can get that level 4. It should be more like: attempt three choreographic spins. One of which needs a basic position held for at least 10 or 12 or whatever revolutions, or it can be done in both directions, or other options they can come up with. The footwork should also be completely dropped from the current free skates as there is not enough time to really invest in the program for most skaters and they should just keep the ChSq. Whatever moves in the field they want lasting up to, let's say 20 seconds for the sequence and matching the music.. we know they can do the footwork based on the technical program already. Maybe even add another short sequence that requires a segment of one-foot steps, like in dance. I'm sure the technical committees could come up with a pool of options for some of the elements, that all have the same base level, and the skaters can pick and choose which elements they want to use to comprise their programs.

As far as the jumps go in the artistic program, I really would have to turn into a mathematician and figure out how it could be somewhat balanced between the two programs, but I think maybe four jumping elements total in the program would work. One of which is an Axel, one of which is a toe jump, one of which is a remaining edge jump, and one combination or sequence.

Skating could get back with the modern days somewhat if the rules were loosened to see more creative moves that aren't deemed 'illegal' or not L4-worthy. Singles skaters could even be doing slide elements. Look how many variations we saw this previous season on a brand new element.

Obviously, this program would carry the PCS weight and the skaters would have to be much more well-rounded to hold themselves up in both programs.

I guess ideally I would be going for 10 elements in each program: 6 jumping elements in the technical, 4 non-jumping. And the reverse for the artistic program.

 

[aftershocks]

That needs to get addressed before this happens.

Good luck with that. The ISU has never been great at addressing anything that needs to be addressed in a timely and efficient manner, as far as I have seen.

But with that said, and in the light of how we know things tend to happen in this sport, this projected competitive and structural rules change opens up numerous possibilities for camp, no?

I am reminded of the poor choice to allow an unskilled young ice dance team from India to compete at the recent Lake Placid JGP. It was mindboggling. Why didn't anyone see that an opportunity was missed for these two young hopefuls to take away a positive experience by being allowed to simply be there, to meet other young ice dancers, and to see how junior competitions work up-close-and-personal? They might also have been allowed to engage in a few training sessions, to enjoy watching practices, to engage in photo opportunities and interviews. This, rather than being expected to go out on the ice and stumble around together ineptly. And then have to sit for excruciating minutes in the kiss 'n cry while the judges wasted time scrounging up five points for them, when they deserved no points for the level they are at right now.

The worst was then having Ted Barton try to justify the decision by conjuring up Bin Yao's experience at Worlds in the early 1980s. That was a completely different era. Bin Yao and his partner had some embarrassing rudimentary skills, particularly on the elements, but they also at least had some level of skating ability. Within two years, they had improved to an even higher degree despite the need for more experience on their death spiral and overall polishing. I don't think that can be said of the young Indian team. The young lady first needs a better partner to match her physically and to at least be closer to her current introductory level.

Today the sport is more global and connected, and there are more resources available than what was available to Bin Yao and his country. Despite the drawbacks in an age before advanced communication technology and ISU collaborative resources, Yao persevered by strength of will and fierce desire. It doesn't make sense to conjure up Bin Yao's journey as an excuse for wasting a competitive spot at Lake Placid for a less than skilled team, when there are so many young teams with more competent skill levels who may have benefited from being given the assignment instead. This is unfortunately another example of camp, and of backwards thinking, antiquated competitive structure, inadequate communication and zero long term planning strategies. Not to mention non-existent vision.

Did anyone in charge learn anything by this poor decision or are they still trying to justify allowing a team with less skills than Special Olympics competitors to show up on the competitive JGP circuit? As I said, allow the hopeful young team to be there and to engage with the other young athletes and to see all aspects of junior level competition, and to have the opportunity to soak up the atmosphere, engage in some instruction and have high hopes and inspiration they could then take back home with them. And then maybe partner the young lady with a better physical match before providing them with the chance to receive a long term training stint at an established rink in the U.S. or Canada. I hope the ISU have no future plans to allow other countries with a sincere desire to create skating programs to send barely skilled young aspirants to JGP competitions while better skilled young athletes from more established federations, who need the chance to gain junior international experience, sit at home.

We can only cross our fingers and hope. The only thing currently keeping figure skating alive are the hopes and dreams and hard work of young athletes who become the stars and lifeblood of the sport.

 

[aftershocks]

I'll play.

Segment one. Artistic program.
length: 3-3:30
jumping passes: 3, one two-jump combination is allowed. Priority is placed on aesthetic qualities of the jump, placement in program and relation to music.
spins: 2. no levels.
choreographed step sequence: 1. no levels. judged on musicality, uniqueness, difficulty
40% of total score.
technical score calculated more or less like it is now, judges give ONE score out of 10 for artistry.

Segment two. Technical program.
length 4:00
this is structured similar to current LP.
jumping passes: 7
leveled spins: 2 or 3.
one footwork sequence that is leveled but it's gotta move! must be done within 15 seconds because I am tired of these meandering footwork sequences that take 30 seconds.
60% of total score.

I find it more palpable for the artistic program to come first, and close with the technical program. For those concerned about figure skating's inclusion in the Olympics, this still prioritizes the "sport" aspect.

Problem solved. Best of both worlds. Plz let me know when the ISU technical council wants to hire me as a consultant.

What would you suggest for pairs along these lines? And I suppose leave ice dance as is?

 

[alchemy void]

Even after actually reading all seven paragraphs, I'm still totally at a loss as to what Rawtani/Bhatia have to do with potential new program requirements, @aftershocks.

I am reminded of the poor choice to allow an unskilled young ice dance team from India to compete at the recent Lake Placid JGP. It was mindboggling.

Mindboggling? Their low-level skating for an entire 7 minutes was that offensive?

Why didn't anyone see that an opportunity was missed for these two young hopefuls to take away a positive experience by being allowed to simply be there, to meet other young ice dancers, and to see how junior competitions work up-close-and-personal? They might also have been allowed to engage in a few training sessions, to enjoy watching practices, to engage in photo opportunities and interviews.

Sorry, but I find this incredibly patronizing. "Sure guys, you can come hang out and maybe engage in a practice session, but don't even think of competing until you reach an acceptable level, of which will be decided by how bitchy Dave Lease is feeling this week."

The worst was then having Ted Barton try to justify the decision by conjuring up Bin Yao's experience at Worlds in the early 1980s.

How would you have liked Barton to commentate? With disdain? Silence? Come on. Of course comparing Rawtani/Bhatia to Bin Yao is not an ideal comparison, but his point stands: you have to start somewhere. The JGP is a developmental circuit. There are no tech minimums. The smallest federations can send skaters to a couple events each year. It's not like there are a plethora of domestic Indian competitions like there are in North America, Russia, and Japan.

It doesn't make sense to conjure up Bin Yao's journey as an excuse for wasting a competitive spot at Lake Placid for a less than skilled team, when there are so many young teams with more competent skill levels who may have benefited from being given the assignment instead.

They did not take a spot from anyone. All ISU members are entitled to send skaters to JGP events.

Did anyone in charge learn anything by this poor decision or are they still trying to justify allowing a team with less skills than Special Olympics competitors to show up on the competitive JGP circuit?

Seriously?

I hope the ISU have no future plans to allow other countries with a sincere desire to create skating programs to send barely skilled young aspirants to JGP competitions while better skilled young athletes from more established federations, who need the chance to gain junior international experience, sit at home.

Again, JGP spots are determined by federations placements at Junior Worlds. Rawtani/Bhatia did not take a spot away from anyone.

I understand they are very low-level skaters. But I find the angst (not just from you!) really overblown and disproportionate, and seriously lacking perspective.

The only thing currently keeping figure skating alive are the hopes and dreams and hard work of young athletes who become the stars and lifeblood of the sport.

Don't get me wrong, the ISU has it's share of issues. But the Junior Grand Prix is NOT one of them. I think what they've done over the past 6 years is a triumph and helps to develop the sport. More people from all over the world are watching each season. Look past your American lens for a minute: yes, the JGP is about developing key junior talent, but it's also about growing the sport internationally beyond USA/Russia/Japan/Canada.

 

[aftershocks]

Nope @alchemy void, I think the ISU could have assisted those two young people in much better ways than pretending they are at a competitive skill level that warrants them competing at a junior international event. I'm really not sure what they will have gained from the experience, aside from the off-ice experience of being at a junior international competition. Surely, they are already aware that they have a lot to learn which chiefly requires training by good coaches and lots of practice before entering competitions. Or they could compete now with skaters of similar ability at lower level competitions. However, it's not looking down on them to try and promote India's interest in developing a serious skating program by sending them there to learn rather to compete at their current level.

Yep, discussing the young duo from India being included in the Lake Placid competition is off-topic in this thread, but it's also an example of questionable decision-making by the ISU whether or not you happen to agree. I don't know what Dave Lease has to do with the ISU's decisions and choices, unless somehow they are partners-in-crime regarding so much that is bonehead wrong with this sport.

I'm not disparaging the Junior Grand Prix's organizational structure and existence. Ted Barton has been instrumental in getting the ISU to further develop junior level competition and to make it available to a worldwide audience. That's a worthy accomplishment which has uplifted the sport. More of same, please! And Barton also deserves so much credit for his knowledge of the sport and for how positive, upbeat and constructive he is in assessing young skaters' attributes and weaknesses after their performances. It's a learning experience to listen to Barton's commentary. He's not always perfect of course, e.g., when he pretends Alysa Liu had no URs, or when he's soft-shoeing for the ISU. But I understand the necessity in his position. In any case, the Junior Grand Prix circuit is a good example of what I meant regarding young athletes being the sport's lifeblood. There's nothing wrong with the young team from India's desire to improve and to compete. But I find it problematic for them to do so at a JGP event at their current skill level, and I come to that conclusion independently of what anyone else thinks.

The expansion and development of the Junior Grand Prix over the years is essential to the growth of the sport of figure skating. And it's excellent that development of the JGP has inspired interest in other countries unfamiliar with figure skating to start skating programs at the grassroots level. I just think there are better and more productive ways of going about helping these countries with pilot training programs, exchange programs, rink construction, collaborative coaching and sharing of knowledge and training resources. There needs to be better long-range planning across the board in figure skating, and more attention paid to improving the competitive opportunities and ongoing development of all skaters interested in pursuing a serious competitive career. As it currently stands, there is a dearth of opportunities to improve at the highest level. So what is the long range mission and goals of figure skating as a whole? I am not sure what the old guard are actually thinking in this respect.

Other countries being interested in figure skating is not the issue. It's making thoughtful and well-considered choices in helping those countries. What I find wrong is the ISU's problematic decisionmaking; their lack of vision and leadership; the rampant conflicts of interest; the flawed judging system; the practice of punishing whistleblowers while rewarding cheating judges with the ability to return to the scene of the crime after a slap on the wrist, etc.

Obviously, the mixed commentary in this thread demonstrates that most fs fans are wary of the current competitive rules changes put forward by the ISU. But change does need to happen, and it surely does need to start somewhere. I just feel that the old guard need to set the stage to fade their management control away and to infuse the sport with fresh viewpoints, youthful energy and ideas, better management skills and expertise from other fields, and above all more visionary thinking, some of which is surely accessible from within the existing skating community.

That most people here don't like the length of my posts has nothing to do with the sincere thoughtfulness and passion for the sport that informs my thinking and my desire to speak out.

 

[Lanie]

And what then if teams from countries like India are not able to compete up to your standards for the JGP? They never compete, never improve, and do not grow the sport or increase their own talent? They quit, move on, their country doesn't send anyone and why would skating ever improve in their countries. Don't we want to see more athletes? Don't we want to encourage skaters from all over the world to SKATE? That's incredibly unfair to them. They deserve to be there, to learn how to compete, to see the other skaters, to improve and grow. That is what the JGP is about, isn't it? Growing and forming talent. Encouraging skaters who aren't from the big countries to stick it out in the sport and give them important exposure to a competitive environment.

 

[tony]

The ISU allots spots to each JGP event. The Federations fill them as they wish. There are always skaters from smaller-established skating counties at each event. The team from India may have been way behind, but they weren’t entered with special privilege and they weren’t taking anyone else’s spot away. Ted Barton and the ISU have done a great job in promoting the visibility Junior skating receives, and I’m quite sure that all of these young skaters are thrilled to have their performances documented in great quality and with such big following that comes from the ISU itself posting the videos— even if they don’t have their best outings.

Before the minimums were established for Worlds and other majors, I’m sure you @aftershocks are aware that skaters from countries like Mexico, Greece, and Yugoslavia were receiving scores as low as the 1’s and low 2’s (out of 6.0)— at these major events. The reason we didn’t really know about it because this was a time when we were only lucky enough to see maybe the top 6 or top 10 at these senior events. But surely you don’t want to complain about seeing more skating, right?

But, you have to start somewhere. Mexico developed some nice ladies and even got into the top 24 at Worlds 10 years ago— almost 10 years after their entire congregation was filling up the last-place spots at the early-edition Four Continents Championships.

Anyways, since they (the team from India) weren’t hurting anyone and they were almost surely living out a huge dream by being able to travel and see some of the top junior skaters on the same ice, I’m not sure how you came up with such a distaste or dissertation about why it was so bad.

ETA- check out the scores for the ladies from 21st down to 32nd at the 2001 Four Continents. Every single one of them got at least one score in the 2’s.

Four Continents Championships 2001 - Ladies - Short Program

 

[aftershocks]

And what then if teams from countries like India are not able to compete up to your standards for the JGP? They never compete, never improve, and do not grow the sport or increase their own talent? They quit, move on, their country doesn't send anyone and why would skating ever improve in their countries. Don't we want to see more athletes? Don't we want to encourage skaters from all over the world to SKATE? That's incredibly unfair to them. They deserve to be there, to learn how to compete, to see the other skaters, to improve and grow. That is what the JGP is about, isn't it? Growing and forming talent. Encouraging skaters who aren't from the big countries to stick it out in the sport and give them important exposure to a competitive environment.

I think this does get at an important issue, but we are talking about a number of things here. First of all, it's great for countries unfamiliar with figure skating to develop an interest in the sport for their youth as well as for interested adults. It was exciting to witness the precocious development of Denis Ten, and to see the talented and charismatic Michael Christian Martinez's entry onto the competitive scene (albeit his continued improvement may well have been stagnated by lack of finances for the amount of training needed to improve to the next level). In recent events, it's been a joy to watch Donovan Carrillo's engaging performances. Javier Fernandez's championship success has spawned growth of the sport in Spain. This rise of talent in more and different countries around the world is exciting, but as far as I can see it's also sporadic, ill-funded, and inefficiently developed. Does the ISU actually have a long term strategy or a well thought out mission statement for growing the sport worldwide? If so, I'd like to see it.

Meanwhile IMO, there are a slew of organizational, cooperative, conflict of interest, and governing body management issues that go unaddressed. The sport has been exceedingly slow to listen to its membership and to enact change in a timely and forward-thinking manner. It has often taken public scandals for them to recognize the need for change that quite often powerless members of the skating community had been diligently advocating for unheeded for years (the scoring system is a chief example). The sport's origins are elitist, insular and conservative, further complicated by federation and ISU management practices being hidebound by powerplays, antiquated thinking and political in-fighting.

IMO, there's way too much fear of stepping out of the status quo party line, and this results in a lot of going along to get along. Therefore effective, well thought out and well-planned change is very slow to happen. There's been too much pushing in of rules changes, without adequate testing and long-term planning. To me the ISU for far too long has been about certain individuals holding onto power, not to mention the problematic situation of speedskaters controlling the finances and operational management of figure skating. That is at the crux of the problems that figure skating faces, and it has been for far too long. These are two different sports and the fact that they have been run by the same governing body in a tied at the hip way for so long has been to the advantage of speedskating, and to the detriment of figure skating. I know my comments are politically incorrect. I realize that nothing will change, since the ill-planned effort to force change went badly awry in 2003, was snuffed out, and effectively led to the continued kowtowing of U.S. officials to the hegemony of the ISU.

I realize that fans mostly just want to go along to get along too, and thus most fans prefer to view the current status quo as glass half-full, rather than finding fault. At this rate, things as they are will continue to meander along in the good, the bad and the ugly ways to which we've become accustomed.

Everyone can knee-jerk about me voicing my opinions on the young duo from India. It's certainly not the end of the world for them. Surely they benefited in some way. I'm just not so sure that at their current level they benefited by participating. I don't think competition on the JGP has helped them improve their skills. They need dedicated and attentive training from good coaches. My thoughts are not intended as a putdown. I believe all cultures have a lot to contribute to figure skating that can help enrich the sport in important and immeasurable ways. But there is an effective way and a bonehead way of going about things in any endeavor.

The other part of this is how to balance growing the sport worldwide with long-term planning for accommodating the sport's growth in a way that allows for equal opportunties, as opposed to favoritism and political advantage imbalances. As it is, there's a very narrow window of opportunity to even advance to the top levels with huge depth in some countries and lack of depth in other countries complicating competitive opportunities. This leads to some skaters not even being able to improve or to gain any competitive momentum. This is a problematic concern the sport surely has huge challenges in addressing, but the sad fact is TPTB apparently prefer not to address it at all.

Heads in the sand, inadequate p.r. campaigns that don't address the real problems, and business as usual are the only things I see happening in response to problematic concerns. What I also see is mouthpiece advocating for growth in other countries without enacting beneficial change to accommodate that growth, nor even providing sufficient resources to further such growth in interested countries. The young Indian duo competing at JGP is like the 'Get Up' campaign in the U.S. -- goodhearted and well-meaning, but superficial and inadequate to address ongoing problems, much less the best way to adequately benefit and serve those two youngsters or any of the young athletes who dream big and work hard.

 

[Lanie]

I don't think the problems you cite, the sort of things many of us has talked about over the years and years here and certainly recently, has much to do with inviting a younger, inexperienced team on the JGP though? It just seems particularly crass to bring them up especially disparagingly comparing them to a Special Olympics competitor, which is also laden with insinuations that the kids who are in the Special Olympics shouldn't even bother because of their disabilities. It disparages those kids, as well as disparaging any athlete from a developing skating nation effectively telling them eff off we don't want you unless you're good enough--but you don't learn to be good enough unless you experience competition and being around other athletes like yourself. It didn't make me feel comfortable reading it that's for sure.

I think the ISU through the JGP is doing a good job exposing younger athletes to the competition side, the international competition side, of the sport, regardless of skill level. The ISU should be working on nurturing and encouraging it, which I think they are trying to do by letting teams such as Rawtani/Bhatia. Is there some program in place? I don't know, but this is a good start.

 

[MsZem]

I don't think the problems you cite, the sort of things many of us has talked about over the years and years here and certainly recently, has much to do with inviting a younger, inexperienced team on the JGP though? It just seems particularly crass to bring them up especially disparagingly comparing them to a Special Olympics competitor, which is also laden with insinuations that the kids who are in the Special Olympics shouldn't even bother because of their disabilities. It disparages those kids, as well as disparaging any athlete from a developing skating nation effectively telling them eff off we don't want you unless you're good enough--but you don't learn to be good enough unless you experience competition and being around other athletes like yourself. It didn't make me feel comfortable reading it that's for sure.

I think the ISU through the JGP is doing a good job exposing younger athletes to the competition side, the international competition side, of the sport, regardless of skill level. The ISU should be working on nurturing and encouraging it, which I think they are trying to do by letting teams such as Rawtani/Bhatia. Is there some program in place? I don't know, but this is a good start.

Indeed. Whatever issues the sport may have, encouraging skaters from non-skating countries to compete and gain experience is not one of them.

And while they didn't have quite as much ground to make up as India's young ice dancers, check out the bottom of the standings from this long-ago JGP, as well as Spain's first ice dance entry at Junior Worlds.

 

[aftershocks]

Thanks for your reply @Tony Wheeler. Good for you and for those youngsters who start at the bottom and work their way up, well, as far up as they can, which is obviously not that far in this sport as it's presently constituted. This is a complicated topic that actually needs to be discussed in a serious way, rather than in a condescending, 'support the status quo or else' rah rah way.

My view is that the sport's competitive structure is antiquated and ill accommodates athletes across-the-board. You can continue to suggest that I'm looking down on skaters from atypical countries who want to compete and improve. I just don't think the ISU has thought anything through that truly benefits athletes very well at either the lowest or the highest levels of this sport. There are no easy answers. But IMO, there's no serious depth of thought and care being given to any pressing concerns the sport is facing. They throw a few bandaids out here and there or push in ham-handed rules changes every so often, until the inadequacy of those changes require new rules to fix the problems the old slap-dabs caused.

Meanwhile, there is joy in watching the athletes soar and try. Good luck to the earnest young Indian duo, Rawtani/ Bhatia. If they are truly inspired and motivated to continue, that's a good thing. But bringing up Bin Yao was a big reach that merely showed someone (not necessarily Ted Barton) felt the need to try and justify Rawtani/Bhatia's participation in the Lake Placid JGP competition. And even in that effort, the ISU could have done a much better job of reasonably supporting how and why their inclusion was beneficial to them and to the sport.

Bringing up Bin Yao was a big reach which suggests rose-colored glasses or smarmy insincerity, again not on the part of kindly Ted Barton, but from the people who may have given him the idea to bring up Bin Yao as some kind of awkward, ill-conceived, and unnecessary justification. I might have been able to swallow it better myself had the explanation been more straightforward and as pragmatic as you have in part presented it Tony. If bringing up Bin Yao was Barton's idea, then okay, it was a well meaning but uselessly over-reaching explanation. India may well produce stellar skating talent in the future, but more than likely they will have been trained in countries with well established training centers, unless and until the sport sufficiently takes off in India, which may or may not happen. IMO, Bin Yao is a very rare one-of-a-kind, passionate visionary, and frankly figure skating needs more movers-and-shakers like him. But such individuals are clearly one in a lifetime.

 

[MsZem]

Thanks for your reply @Tony Wheeler. Good for you and for those youngsters who start at the bottom and work their way up, well, as far up as they can, which is obviously not that far in this sport as it's presently constituted. This is a complicated topic that actually needs to be discussed in a serious way, rather than in a condescending, 'support the status quo or else' rah rah way.

Are you the arbiter of what is serious and what's a condescending and rah rah way?

The current status quo is that skaters from more established federations are generally more successful.

My view is that the sport's competitive structure is antiquated and ill accommodates athletes across-the-board. You can continue to suggest that I'm looking down on skaters from atypical countries who want to compete and improve. I just don't think the ISU has thought anything through that truly benefits athletes very well at either the lowest or the highest levels of this sport.

There are developmental programs in place, and lower level skaters, coaches from smaller federations, etc. have benefited from these.

Good luck to the earnest young Indian duo, Rawtani/ Bhatia. If they are truly inspired and motivated to continue, that's a good thing. But bringing up Bin Yao was a big reach that merely showed someone (not necessarily Ted Barton) felt the need to try and justify Rawtani/Bhatia's participation in the Lake Placid JGP competition.

Feel free to look up the non-Bin Yao examples I posted. And even if these too are a higher standard than what Rawtani and Bhatia can aspire to, they can still inspire other young kids at their rink in India. That in itself is a valuable thing.

But don't take it from me. Here's Harshita Rawtani's interview about her experience competing in Lake Placid (originally posted in the JGP Lake Placid ladies thread):

Harshita Rawtani (IND) | Interview | Lake Placid 2019

Visit https://isu.org/JuniorGrandPrix for more information on the ISU Junior Grand Prix of Figure Skating.Courchevel, France - August 21 to 24Lake Placid, US...

youtu.be

 

[aftershocks]

... the kids who are in the Special Olympics shouldn't even bother because of their disabilities.

If you wish to continue reading into my posts in a negative way, that's your perogative, Lanie. In fact, I mentioned the Special Olympics athletes in a complimentary way in terms of their blade skill prowess in comparison to where Rawtani/ Bhatia are currently at. I'm sure with desire and concerted effort R/B will improve either together should they continue to partner, or separately if they split and continue to skate singly or with new partners.

I make no bones about calling things as honestly as I see it. And apparently, many of you don't really wish to engage with the points I'm making, but only to throw up opposing views, or just to throw up in your case Lanie. Talk about disparaging comments. Read whatever you wish into my words, but it doesn't make your reading accurate.

I don't think the current competitive structure truly works for the benefit of all athletes. There are more effective ways to at least try to explore for athletes to be trained and to improve in this sport. The current system doesn't work well for athletes at a higher skill level, much less for the steady and efficient progress of lesser skilled athletes. That's my opinion, but you guys can continue defending the ISU and the current status quo.

 

[misskarne]

My view is that the sport's competitive structure is antiquated and ill accommodates athletes across-the-board. You can continue to suggest that I'm looking down on skaters from atypical countries who want to compete and improve. I just don't think the ISU has thought anything through that truly benefits athletes very well at either the lowest or the highest levels of this sport. There are no easy answers. But IMO, there's no serious depth of thought and care being given to any pressing concerns the sport is facing. They throw a few bandaids out here and there or push in ham-handed rules changes every so often, until the inadequacy of those changes require new rules to fix the problems the old slap-dabs caused.

Oh, puh-lease, don't pretend like you actually care about the improvement of the skaters from the non-skating countries. Not after all the sanctimonious, arrogant, condescending garbage you've posted in this thread. The comparison to Special Olympics skaters - as though those skaters aren't worth anything - is particularly low, even for you.

I notice you have not yet addressed the non-Bin Yao examples given you.

Every country must start somewhere. Perhaps, at home in India, a little child saw the video of Harshita and Vansh, and realised that skating is not only for other people, but could be for their people too. And perhaps that child will be of a family with the resources to give them better training, and so skating in India will rise still further. But there must always be a pioneer, there must always be someone to come first, to cut the trail through tangled woodland, no matter how hard that trail might be.

And, IMO, those who scorn the non-skating countries' efforts cannot truly call themselves figure skating fans.

 

[aftershocks]

Are you the arbiter of what is serious and what's a condescending and rah rah way?

The current status quo is that skaters from more established federations are generally more successful.

No, but I am the expresser of my personal opinion based on my perceptions, and on my knowledge and experience. You seem to be the arbiter of what you think is right about the current system. Good for you.

So in your view, 'the current status quo supports more established federations.' My view is the current status quo does not support athletes across-the-board in fair and equal ways. I believe that more serious and in-depth consideration should be given to rethinking how the entire sport is structured. But I don't see that happening because of hidebound, officious attitudes such as those being expressed by many of you in this thread under the guise of benevolence toward growth in atypical countries. There may be some beneficial strides occurring largely through the dedicated efforts of particular inspired individuals, but the sport as a whole still faces numerous inadequacies and imbalances.

What is the actual overall goal for athlete improvement? What is the mission statement? What is being done to provide financial resources to atypical countries? To me a lot of these efforts to grow the sport in other countries seems sporadic and limited. Meanwhile, what about working on the problems faced by federations across-the-board? By established federations, I suppose you are mainly referencing the United States, Canada, Russia, Japan. What are you suggesting needs to be done to lessen these countries supposed advantages? I think there's too much focus on country politics under the current competitive structure, and not enough on athlete improvement and increased competitve opportunities, which will be even more necessary if the goal is to widen serious participation in different countries.

The governing body and federations should actually be looking at ways to determine how to promote the sport effectively, to study young people's exposure and participation in the sport, to figure out the direction the sport should be heading in, rather than the sport rambling on status quo, business as usual. I think the whole expanding the sport in other countries efforts are more p.r. than an actual dedicated desire by TPTB to improve the sport in those countries. It's more of a sink or swim approach, which is really the specter that most athletes face in this sport in any case, regardless of which country they represent. As it currently stands, there are very narrow windows of opportunity to rise within the sport. Most athletes will not make it very far, and that's not always based on their talent level. Some with talent don't last and some with lesser talent go far. I think more serious efforts should be made to study issues across the board in this sport in order to chart a better course forward, or else remain on the antiquated business-as-usual track.

This sport has a history of political conflicts of interest and bloc-judge voting that benefited skaters from some countries over other countries. At this point in time, not much has changed as politics still abounds while bloc-judge voting was replaced by COP/IJS and anonymous judging that has since been restored to non-anonymous judging, yet with ongoing PCS manipulation. But sure, it's the way things are and we are used to the way things are.

 

[aftershocks]

Ah, @misskarne, welcome aboard. I see now is the time for pile-on, just because. And for continued reading of my comments in a negative, dismissive way. Yep, business as usual, this time on FSU.

 

[misskarne]

Ah, @misskarne, welcome aboard. I see now is the time for pile-on, just because. And for continued reading of my comments in a negative, dismissive way. Yep, business as usual, this time on FSU.

Ah, @aftershocks, welcome aboard. I see now is the time for pithy remarks, just because. And for continued evasion of any kind of counter-opinion, because you have decided you are right and everyone else is wrong. Yep, business as usual, this time on FSU.

 

[ShuPa]

I read both the Planet Hanyu translation and the google translation again. Both did not mention long program. It's possible what Lakernik meant was splitting the SP into two parts, technical and artistic.

There was an another interview with Lakernik from last year which was partially translated on the Planet Hanyu forum. Lakernik talked about the possible changes more detailed in that interview. He mentioned a technical and artistic program which would replace the current short program and free skate, he didn't mean they'd split the SP into two parts and the current free skate would remain.
The technical and artistic program would have ca. the same length. The technical program would have more jumps and spins in it and 2/3 of the score would be TES, 1/3 PCS, and vocal music wouldn't be allowed in it. In the artistic program, there would be no levels, just BV+GOE and vocal music would be allowed unlike in the technical program. PCS would have more weight in it, though he didn't mention whether it'd be 2/3 PCS and 1/3 TES. In his opinion the artistic program would encourage judges to better evaluate the program components.

The original interview is here: http://hunskate.hu/mukorcsolya/otven-eve-biroi-szekben

 

[Jeschke]

Another thread turning into mess status?
This forum would be no fun if we would all share the same opinions but I am pretty sure it would be way more fun if the personal disputes and attacks would be taken to PM or somewhere else!

 

[aftershocks]

Nope, @misskarne, it's more like everybody has decided I'm wrong and it's very important to dismiss anything I have to say.

R/B should be able to compete and continue to improve, but I don't see them performing at the junior international level with their current abilities to actually be the best way for them to improve. I'd like to see where the sport has actually given this expanded country development any serious thought and full-on concerted effort and financial backing. They appear to be giving it lip-service encouragement, and limited financial backing since the sport in general these days has limited resources. Figure skating historically has been the cash cow to support speedskating.

The sport was founded in elitism, so it's wonderful to see even marginal and limited efforts being made to grow it globally. I just do not see any well-constructed or well thought out long-term planning. I hope R/B do improve and I can see Rawtani being inspired to go farther. Even at her current skill level, she has some promising qualities that exhibit her affinity for dance. With more and better training and a better physically matched partner, she will surely improve. Good luck to Rawtani and to Bhatia wherever this opportunity lands them. I can see Rawtani progressing farther, contributing to the sport and eventually teaching the sport in her country. But I don't agree that the current competitive structure is set up in a way that provides effective benefits for all athletes who desire to compete.

There are only a handful of skaters who make it to the highest level in figure skating as a matter of course. There might be more across-the-board if the sport was truly made accessible and more opportunities were developed under a more expansive competitive structure. As it is, the sport doesn't accommodate all of it's athletes' efforts to improve. The cut-offs from advancing to the fp at Worlds stunts athletes' growth and momentum.

Just as there needs to be given more thought to proposed rules changes, there needs to be more thought expended across-the-board to provide increased opportunities for the development of athletes at every level.

 

[Marco]

There was an another interview with Lakernik from last year which was partially translated on the Planet Hanyu forum. Lakernik talked about the possible changes more detailed in that interview. He mentioned a technical and artistic program which would replace the current short program and free skate, he didn't mean they'd split the SP into two parts and the current free skate would remain.
The technical and artistic program would have ca. the same length. The technical program would have more jumps and spins in it and 2/3 of the score would be TES, 1/3 PCS, and vocal music wouldn't be allowed in it. In the artistic program, there would be no levels, just BV+GOE and vocal music would be allowed unlike in the technical program. PCS would have more weight in it, though he didn't mention whether it'd be 2/3 PCS and 1/3 TES. In his opinion the artistic program would encourage judges to better evaluate the program components.

The original interview is here: http://hunskate.hu/mukorcsolya/otven-eve-biroi-szekben

Interesting. I also wonder if this is a good opportunity to finally have separate TES and PCS panels.