ISU rules changes proposals & reaction

[sleepingsleeping]

This is the rule that Athlete with low ability wins. Athlete like Lysacek and Jeffrey Buttle will win. It is questioned whether we want it as a male competition.

 

[VGThuy]

Top juniors have outscored senior skaters before. Just because one is a senior does not mean they automatically will score higher than a top junior skater. Many of those juniors will be seniors and will leap frog over existing seniors by next year. It happens. Also, didn’t Alina outscore Nathan and others at Japan Open as well?

 

[sleepingsleeping]

For example, Kazuki Tomono, fifth in the world championship, has a higher score in skating skills than Junior Athlete. His 3A probability is higher than Junior. When he was in Junior, he was not defeated by Sumoto and Shimada. He acquired 4S and became fifth in the world championship. He has succeeded in practicing 4T as well. However, he began to lose the score to Sumoto and Shimada. On the other hand, Sumoto and Shimada have never tried quad as a competition.

 

[misskarne]

Senior athletes are athletes who can perform without mistake up to 3A.

This is incorrect. There are many Senior men who cannot do a 3A. Some of them are quite pleasant to watch and I am rather fond of a few of them.

Also, not every Senior will have been a Junior champion. That is not a qualifying factor for the Senior level.

 

[sleepingsleeping]

This is incorrect. There are many Senior men who cannot do a 3A. Some of them are quite pleasant to watch and I am rather fond of a few of them.

Also, not every Senior will have been a Junior champion. That is not a qualifying factor for the Senior level.

Nathan is the champion of Junior Grand Prix Final. He is such a situation in 2015 three years ago
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/jgpusa2015/jgpusa2015_JuniorMen_SP_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/jgpusa2015/jgpusa2015_JuniorMen_FS_Scores.pdf

Even three years ago, he had a higher level compared to the current junior athlete.

 

[thvu]

Nathan is the champion of Junior Grand Prix Final. ...
Even three years ago, he had a higher level compared to the current junior athlete.

You’re talking about Nathan freakin’ Chen. To say his athletic achievements should be the standard is a ridiculously high bar. It’s nonsensicial to even suggest such a thing.

 

[sleepingsleeping]

You’re talking about Nathan freakin’ Chen. To say his athletic achievements should be the standard is a ridiculously high bar. It’s nonsensicial to even suggest such a thing.

Nathan with such high technical skill loses junior score. That is the current judging system. It does not correctly measure the ability of the athlete.

http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/jgpusa2015/jgpusa2015_JuniorMen_FS_Scores.pdf

Nathan CHEN 　4T-3T，4T
Daniel SAMOHIN　4T-2T，4S，4T
Sota YAMAMOTO　4T
Yaroslav PANIOT　4T

Three years ago, many athletes were jumping quad.

 

[misskarne]

Nathan is the champion of Junior Grand Prix Final. He is such a situation in 2015 three years ago
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/jgpusa2015/jgpusa2015_JuniorMen_SP_Scores.pdf
http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1516/jgpusa2015/jgpusa2015_JuniorMen_FS_Scores.pdf

Even three years ago, he had a higher level compared to the current junior athlete.

So you're saying they don't get to be Seniors unless they're Nathan's level? I suppose in that case I better go tell all the Australian Juniors not to bother, then.

 

[pat c]

About 20 years ago someone I knew from a fan discussion list once suggested not having judges scores for their home country skaters count -- to drop the compatriot judge's score and sub in the scores from the substitute judge.

With 6.0 scoring in the ordinal system that suggestion made no sense. The scores didn't mean anything in isolation but only as placeholders for each judge to keep track of their rankings.

But with IJS, with the add-and-average procedure for scoring, it would make perfect sense either to just drop the home country judge's score and take the average of one fewer judges (6 instead of 7 or 8 instead of 9) for each GOE and component for each skater with a compatriot judge on the panel. Or include a substitute judge from a different country whose marks don't count except to sub in for the judges who have compatriot skaters in the event.

I like this and it's certainly doable. It might open the door for judges who aren't able to judge competitions right now as they don't have a competiting skater in the event. Anything that gives more impartiality can only be a win/win.

 

[Rhino]

About 20 years ago someone I knew from a fan discussion list once suggested not having judges scores for their home country skaters count -- to drop the compatriot judge's score and sub in the scores from the substitute judge.

But with IJS, with the add-and-average procedure for scoring, it would make perfect sense either to just drop the home country judge's score and take the average of one fewer judges (6 instead of 7 or 8 instead of 9) for each GOE and component for each skater with a compatriot judge on the panel. Or include a substitute judge from a different country whose marks don't count except to sub in for the judges who have compatriot skaters in the event.

Sorry to quote such an old post, but wanted to find something that would lead into what I’m about to say, and this seemed the most appropriate as it’s to do with judges marking their own country’s skaters.

I don’t want to make a big issue of this for the reasons I’m about to outline, but Elizaveta Tuktamysheva only won Skate Canada because of judges judging their own country’s skaters.

I looked at the protocols - http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1819/gpcan2018/gpcan2018_Ladies_SP_Scores.pdf and http://www.isuresults.com/results/season1819/gpcan2018/gpcan2018_Ladies_FS_Scores.pdf - after the event and was immediately struck by how high the Russian judge (Judge 3) gave for components in both the SP and LP (9 were the highest of any judge and 1, Performance in the LP, was equal highest). Hence I investigated further and decided to do some calculations as if the Russian judge didn’t mark Elizaveta, and you had 8 judges marking her, and the Japanese judge (Judge 1) didn’t mark Mako Yamashita (likewise).

What I did for these 2 skaters was take the remaining 8 judges GOEs and PCS scores, knock off the highest and lowest, and re-calculate their scores, factoring differently where appropriate to take account of the fact that only 6 scores would now count – for Elizaveta and Mako it would be as if you were effectively half-way between a CS event with 7 judges and a GP event with 9.

The results were as follows –

Elizaveta Tuktamysheva

old SP 74.22 (BV 35.39, GOE 7.00, PCS 31.83)

new SP 73.71 (BV 35.39, GOE 6.79, PCS 31.53)

old LP 129.10 (BV 60.35, GOE 4.91, PCS 64.84 – 1.00 DED)

new LP 128.57 (BV 60.35, GOE 4.82, PCS 64.40 – 1.00 DED)


For Mako the scores were

old SP 66.30 (BV 30.28, GOE 5.13, PCS 30.89)

new SP 66.71 (BV 30.28, GOE 5.23, PCS 31.20)

old LP 136.76 (BV 61.12, GOE 10.55, PCS 65.09)

new LP 137.31 (BV 61.12, GOE 10.59, PCS 65.60)


Total scores – Elizaveta 202.28 vs 203.32 actual, Mako 204.02 vs 203.06 actual.


In addition you can discount marking down as potentially reversing the above.

If you look at the protocols it becomes clear that the Japanese judge absolutely loved Elizaveta e.g. 8 out of 10 PCS scores were higher than her average, plus if you use GOE element counts as a proxy their total of 44 across both programs was equal to that of Judge 5 (the Russian judge was 3rd highest with 38). Also she really disliked Mako relatively speaking e.g. 4 out of 5 components in both programs were the lowest or equal lowest of any the judges.

Of course this is their prerogative, but just to point out that taking account of marking down wouldn’t have affected the new result. Instead if neither the Japanese or Russian judges had judged the event at all, Mako’s new winning margin would have been even larger - the Russian judge tended to score Mako on the low side, especially her PCS’s in the SP, but nothing out of the ordinary.

So why do I hesitate to call it out as ‘national bias judging’? Well it isn’t obviously the case, notwithstanding Lisa’s PCS scores, which were incidentally all much of a muchness 7 x 8.75 and 3 x 8.50 (2 for transitions which Liza is famously known for ‘not having’ and Performance in the LP – she did fall after all). It’s as if the Russian judge said I’m going to give her 8.75 no matter what and stick to it, unless I have to, whereas the other judges did at least give the pretence of varying their scores, and indeed 2 of them gave Liza 6.25 for Transitions in the SP.

And this is the bit that rankles. Looking at the above you can see that the difference in PCS scores alone would have been more than enough to give Mako the win.

After that it’s a bit unclear, but the one thing I would say is that the judges were very consistent across both programs how they scored their skater and the other.

Also the Russian judge even increased Mako’s PCS components quite a bit in the LP compared with the SP, which is hardly of the action of someone up to no good, especially as Mako skated after Liza, and Liza had just fallen, and done a 3Lz-2T rather than her planned 3Lz-3T.

Hence overall you cannot say that bias was part of the reason why Liza won, but the PCS part still rankles – all 10 of the PCS components of the Russian judge were considerably higher than the final ones and, as above, were the reason Liza won.

IMO this is the reason why judges should never judge their own country’s skaters. It would avoid all question of doubt, and avoid cases like this one.

 

[just tuned in]

[snip]

IMO this is the reason why judges should never judge their own country’s skaters. It would avoid all question of doubt, and avoid cases like this one.

There could still be collusion and "deals."

 

[Rhino]

There could still be collusion and "deals."

Of course, but anything that gets closer to the truth has to be a good thing.

 

[clairecloutier]

Someone on GoldenSkate recently translated an interview with Alexander Lakernik, ISU VP of Figure Skating.

Golden Skate Forums

Figure Skating Forums at Golden Skate

www.goldenskate.com

I believe a link to the original article may have been posted already in the Russian news thread. But this is a better translation.

There are several comments here from Lakernik that I find, shall we say, "interesting."

 

[VGThuy]

Wait, they changed the UR rules again?

 

[Sylvia]

Wait, they changed the UR rules again?

This is the GSD thread on this topic:

ISU Singles & Pairs Scale of Values, Levels, and GOE guidelines for 2019-20 season

The ISU new Scale of Values for 2019-20 season. They reduced the percentage for U/R, edge calls, etc. Link to ISU Communication 2253, which has lists the score of value for the 2019-20 season: https://www.isu.org/inside-isu/isu-communications/communications/21210-2253-s-p-sov-2019-20/file

www.fsuniverse.net

ETA:

Thanks to @clairecloutier for adding her above link (post #343) here: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/th...for-2019-20-season.105647/page-2#post-5597846

 

[clairecloutier]

So there is a new interview with Aleksander Lakernik, who is VP of Figure Skating for the ISU, and, in case anyone is not aware, is the person largely running this sport at the moment.

„Magyarországnak igen jók az esélyei” | Magyar Országos Korcsolyázó Szövetség - MOKSZ

Ismét elfogadta meghívásunkat, és Budapestre látogatott a Nemzetközi Korcsolyázó Szövetség (ISU) első számú alelnöke, Alekszandr Lakernik (Alexander Lakernik), aki, miután előadást tartott a szakmának a friss szabálymódosításokról, idén is technikai kontrollerként értékelte műkorcsolyázóinkat a...

moksz.hu

The interview is in Hungarian and was originally posted at the Planet Hanyu forum.

In it, Lakernik states that there will be proposals before the 2020 ISU Congress to:

1. Re-institute some type of qualifying round at Worlds

2. Replace the current short and long programs with artistic and technical programs

 

[starrynight]

I like the idea of returning the qualifying round at worlds.

I think that this is something that is good for small federations and to grow the reach of the sport.

Would the idea be that a greater number of entries are allowed and certain skaters would have to reach a benchmark in an initial program to be admitted to the main competition?

I'm trying to think back to the preliminary rounds at 2011 Worlds and how that worked.

Although I note with interest that Weaver/Poje had to do the preliminary round at 2011 Worlds and yet they actually made the Grand Prix Final that season? So the requirement to do it mustn't have been based on results that season (maybe world standings or something as they had not been to Worlds since 2008?).

Takahiko Kozuka also actually won silver and had to do the preliminary round - he also made the Grand Prix Final.

It's also interesting to see that skaters like Alexander Majorov etc do well in the qualifying rounds with their free skate and then actually not even make the free in the actual competition.

2011 World Figure Skating Championships - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

As for the artistic and technical programs -- that really interests me. But I would need to see some clear ideas on how it could be made fair.

 

[victorskid]

The qualifying round went through a number of different iterations over the decades - who knows which of those they might consider bringing back or perhaps some new version. Be careful what you wish for!

 

[clairecloutier]

I just find it "interesting" that they would bring back the qualifying round--when their stated reason for reducing the length of men's/pairs long programs was to make competitions shorter.

 

[ballettmaus]

I just find it "interesting" that they would bring back the qualifying round--when their stated reason for reducing the length of men's/pairs long programs was to make competitions shorter.

I believe there are countries that broadcast the qualifying round. Broadcasts mean advertisement which means money can be made.

 

[starrynight]

The qualifying rounds are also interesting from a momentum perspective. I recall reading an interview with Weaver/Poje from 2011 where they said they were actually keen to do the qualification as they wanted to get their free program in front of the same judging panel for a 'dry run'.

And it must have worked, because their free dance score jumped more than 8 points from the qualifying round and it was the competition that totally turned the tide for them and elevated them into the top bracket.

A bit like ramping up momentum from the team event at the Olympics to the individual event.

 

[oleada]

2. Replace the current short and long programs with artistic and technical programs

Ugh, NO

 

[starrynight]

Has there ever been any clear concept of how an artistic vs technical program would work?

As far as I see it the following would at least need to be addressed:

- How would each program be weighted? Would they be of equal length and worth equal points?

- Would there be a PCS component to the technical program?

- Would there be any technical requirements or value in the artistic program? Would it just be judged on GOE and PCS?

- Would we need to accept that the artistic program across all disciplines would be judged like ice dancing?

As a skating fan, I would be extremely interested to see what would happen (particularly in mens) if there was a competitive artistic program. While I absolutely love the technical arms race, there is a lot of jumping and not much choreography sometimes (ie. Nathan Chen's 2018/2019 program which was a jumping masterclass, but not so much on the choreography front).

I think that for example it would be very interesting if you put Chen and Yuzuru out to do the heavy artillery jumping in one program and then got them to do an artistic program next. Both are very capable of excelling in both fields.

But the problem would be how that artistic program would be judged. How could they judge it without it being basically ice dance judging? Or would that just be the new reality? I mean, it could work, ice dance has plenty of fans.

But personally, I find short programs to be a bit of a bore. At least in ice dance they have a theme and a set pattern to actually make them different to the long.

I just find it "interesting" that they would bring back the qualifying round--when their stated reason for reducing the length of men's/pairs long programs was to make competitions shorter.

Would they change the number of entries per country? I wonder if it could be a manoeuvre to get more Russian ladies into the event.

 

[aka_gerbil]

2. Replace the current short and long programs with artistic and technical programs

This tweet from Two For the Ice sums up my feelings on this: https://twitter.com/twofortheice/status/1165431402776662017

IMO, if this comes to pass, then skating should be thrown out of the Olympics. The Olympics are an athletic competition, a sporting event. You cannot count as sport something that has a wholly subjective segment. Changing the format to include an entirely artistic program would make skating not a sport anymore, but an art. The Olympics aren't an art competition.

If they wanted to stay in the games, then I guess the Olympic events could be competed solely on the athletic programs.

 

[starrynight]

Don't they compete a 'free routine' at the Olympics in synchronised swimming that has no required elements?

Are there any synchronised swimming fans here who can explain how that works?

 

[starrynight]

Also, I can see some benefits in a change:

- It would remove the necessity to suddenly give technically strong skaters big PCS that they don't actually earn. They could, rightfully, win the technical program solely on the basis of their technical arsenal.

I note with interest that Alyssa Liu landed a quad lutz recently. It seems like so many of the young juniors are rapidly getting a quad that they will probably hold onto for at least the first year or maybe two of seniors depending on how small they are. If it is the case that if you get a talented girl young enough, you can teach her this jump, it is likely that a flood gate could be opened in respect of quads from the young girls now that coaches and parents around the world know that it is possible.

Having a technical program could be an outlet for this in a way that doesn't cause issues for the sport being all round a child jumping contest with a revolving door of 15 year olds. Let them rightfully win the technical programs and let the artistic program be something else. That way, there isn't the controversy of trying to reduce the value of the quads etc to balance the sport. It just gets re-directed into its own stream. The wunderkinds can obliterate the technical program. Then have the artistic program be a different focus.

I think particularly in ladies, it might be a move that could work satisfactorily to keep some balance in the sport without having to artificially hold back the technical side.

I know that it might seem capable of dodgy judging, but would it really be any different to way I suspect sky high PCS will be given to some of the new entries to seniors just because they jump quads?

 

[aka_gerbil]

Don't they compete a 'free routine' at the Olympics in synchronised swimming that has no required elements?

Are there any synchronised swimming fans here who can explain how that works?

I don’t follow synchronized swimming, but I’d argue that if they have a wholly artistic segment with no technical requirements, then it should not be part of the Olympics, an athletic/sporting event, not an art show.

Set aside the current issues that need to be addressed with pcs/goe not being rewarded correctly, what to do with the jump values. This is about deciding what the nature of skating is at its core. Is it a sport or a performance art?

Skating is at a crossroads here. It has to decide if it wants to remain a sport, which means we do not have program segments that are entirely subjective. If skating does go for an entirely subjective segment, then it’s choosing to be a performance art and should therefore not be included on sport’s biggest stage—the Olympics.

 

[starrynight]

But I suppose the vast majority of skating is already subjective. The only thing that isn’t subjective is the base value of the on paper elements. The GOE and PCS which make up the mostly decisive factors of judging are subjective.

If anything, the technical program would be far more satisfying if it's objective results you want. There wouldn't be those instances of someone coming 12th in TES with a bunch of falls but ending up 5th overall due to PCS for what was a technically sloppy program etc. I can imagine that making people happy for the technical program at least.

And then I imagine in the artistic program you'd be cooked if you fell. So that would make people who don't like splatfests happy as well.

The thing that would make it dissimilar to ice dance would be that there would be a starkly technical component where the skaters would have to prove technical competency without PCS help.

There's some skaters who I can think of who would have dropped like stones during the technical and then done quite well in the artistic. A post-Sochi Patrick Chan would have had some highs and lows in such a system I think.

 

[Orm Irian]

Well, whatever decision is made and whatever changes are approved, I very much doubt that they'll be implemented before the next Olympics, at least. A two-year lead-in would give time for a system for judging the 'artistic' program to be developed in a rather less hasty fashion than the IJS apparently was, and give coaches, choreographers and skaters time to adapt, and judges time to be trained in the new system!

One model available to look at is the Peggy Fleming Trophy at Broadmoor, which - it's worth pointing out, since people everywhere since this news broke seem to have started assuming that 'artistic' means 'jumpless' - has judging requirements and indeed explicitly requires some jumps, it just doesn't treat them in the way the IJS does. There could still be some requirements, just not what they are now. Say - and this is just me riffing off the top of my head, not what the PFT does - a four-minute artistic program might be required to have five jumping passes: at least two solo jumps and one choreographic jumping pass mixing listed and unlisted jumps, while the others can be solos, combinations or sequences. But, instead of specific base values for specific jumps, maybe rotations could be treated like levels. All single jumps would have the same BV, all double jumps the same BV, etc. Combinations/sequences could be levelled at the highest jump and the choreo jumping pass unlevelled, like choreo moves in ice dance. Maybe, to promote variety and discourage skaters/coaches from still trying to win on the strength of big jumps, they could require at least one jump from every level from singles to triples at some point in the program for seniors; quads would certainly be allowed but not valued all that much higher than triples. Spins, step sequences and choreo moves might have higher BVs than now and carry more weight relative to jumps than they do. PCS might be weighted higher but have more specific criteria for judges to follow.

Artistic doesn't have to mean completely subjective and it doesn't have to mean unathletic (though if you asked any solo ice dancers out there I think they'd be quite short with you about the idea that a jumpless program is 'unathletic' or 'not a sport'). It just means taking a different approach to constructing and judging a program. I do think it would be good to see the FS become something other than what I seem to remember Philippe Candeloro - or was it one of the Brians? - acidly referred to as a 'five-minute-long SP' at the end of his competitive career, even if nowadays it's four minutes instead. It might even make competitions more interesting for viewers, instead of the current same-old-same-old-just-longer.

 

[starrynight]

I do feel like this could be a best of both worlds situation.

Particularly as given the way skating is going, I do feel like there is a place for an entirely technical program where the scores will depend on those big jumps and PCS aren't used to manipulate or confuse the outcome. That way there is no question of trying to artificially hold back the quads. They have their own forum where they can be fully rewarded.