ISU rules changes proposals & reaction

[oleada]

I mean, if there was actual scientific reasoning behind the changing the age limit; I’d believe it but it seems to be people’s personal preference.

I think this will do nothing to protect athletes - juniors will still train the harder jumps - and will create a logjam in juniors, IMO.

 

[Wyliefan]

I mean, if there was actual scientific reasoning behind the changing the age limit; I’d believe it but it seems to be people’s personal preference.

I think this will do nothing to protect athletes - juniors will still train the harder jumps - and will create a logjam in juniors, IMO.

Exactly. The kids will still be working hard in training, so what's the point?

 

[clairecloutier]

I mean, if there was actual scientific reasoning behind the changing the age limit; I’d believe it but it seems to be people’s personal preference.

The existing age limit is the preference of the people who set it. If there was any scientific reasoning behind it, we haven’t heard about it.

It’s probably the case that the vast majority of existing ISU rules are in place because of people’s preferences/beliefs/opinions, and little more than that. If the ISU has scientific evidence, polling data, or testing data to support any policies, they do not share it. In most cases, I doubt it exists.

 

[Orm Irian]

I mean, if there was actual scientific reasoning behind the changing the age limit; I’d believe it but it seems to be people’s personal preference.

There's evidence that excessive training in almost any athletic field, especially before puberty IIRC (because of the hormone shifts that occur during puberty for both boys and girls), can have a detrimental effect on bone density levels, which is a lifelong health issue given that the capacity to build and maintain bone density naturally decreases from the age of about 30 onwards. Lower bone density means a higher risk of breaks, stress fractures, and joint and spine degradation, and an increased chance of all those things happening at a younger age. It may also increase the incidence of osteoporosis later in life, and the incidence of early-onset osteoporosis.

It's a paradox: a certain amount of impact training builds bone density, but too much destroys it.

As for whether raising the age of senior eligibility will create a logjam in juniors or lead to juniors doing whatever they want whenever they want in training anyway, I'm sure people said the same when the age of senior/Olympic eligibility was raised from 13 to 15. But it happened, and people survived. Coaches figured out how to adjust their training strategies and athletes' development plans so that they were ready to compete at age 15 or so. Athletes kept on moving up from juniors to seniors, and if there was a logjam or a decline in retention rates, it didn't seem to last long. If this change is made, the same thing will happen again: the sport will adjust, coaching strategies will change, and the sport will move on. And let's be serious here. Coaches are teachers, and any coach who can't say no to a thirteen-year-old who wants to try something dangerous that's beyond them and make it stick the way any classroom teacher with halfway-decent behaviour management training can shouldn't be in the job.

 

[MacMadame]

As for whether raising the age of senior eligibility will create a logjam in juniors or lead to juniors doing whatever they want whenever they want in training anyway, I'm sure people said the same when the age of senior/Olympic eligibility was raised from 13 to 15. But it happened, and people survived.

And it did not stop young phenoms from burning out after a few years in the spotlight or stop training the harder jumps (we have a Junior with a Quad right now) or decrease injuries.

So what's the point?

 

[Coco]

The whole thing about falls on jumps....

Falls should have a greater negative impact on the score, but I understand why awarding a zero for a failed element isn't fair. Athletes need an incentive to take risks, and athletically, an attempt at an extra revolution should count for more than jump with less revolutions.

Like everything wrong with the system, it comes down to how PCS are scored.

I think each fall should lead to a lower and lower cap on the P/E mark. Average the other four components, and then knock 10% off of that average each time someone falls. So if someone is getting 9.0s, but falls three times (Patrick) their P/E score would be capped at 6.57.

 

[clairecloutier]

And it did not stop young phenoms from burning out after a few years in the spotlight or stop training the harder jumps (we have a Junior with a Quad right now) or decrease injuries.

The effect of the previous age limit change was arguably limited or offset by the introduction of IJS, which, after a period of time, led to more technically difficult programs.

 

[Tahuu]

Here is a link to the full list of Urgent Proposals that have been added to the ISU Congress agenda: https://www.isu.org/docman-document...munications/17105-isu-communication-2160/file

Lmao at one of the reasons they give for raising the senior age limit: We have currently the youngest Senior age requirement by far of all Winter sports.

Where's their credibility?

Figure skating: 15 years old
Luge: 15 years old
Nordic combined: 15 years old
Short track speedskating: 15 years old
Skeleton: 14 years old
Ski jumping: 15 years old
Snowboard: 15 years old
Speedskating: 16 years old
Alpine skiing: 17 years old
Biathlon: 22 years old
Bobsleigh: 15 years old
Cross-country skiing: 15 years old
Curling: N/A
Freestyle skiing: 15 years old
Ice hockey: 18 years old

The fact that the majority of winter sports federations set 15 years old as Olympic age requirement suggests athletes at 15 yrs old are considered physically and mentally fit/suit for the highest level of sports competitions.

 

[Coco]

What responsible parent lets their 14 year old do skeleton? I mean really!!!

 

[mag]

What responsible parent lets their 14 year old do skeleton? I mean really!!!

What I want to know is how did skeleton come to be? Seriously, one day you just decide to go a million miles an hour down an ice track on a cafeteria tray? On second thought, that does sound like something a 14 year old would try

 

[clairecloutier]

The New York Times has this article today, relevant to the current discussion:

Reducing Injury Risk in Youth Sports
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/...-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

 

[giselle23]

The age limit is only an issue now because tech is overvalued under IJS. The 13 and 14 year olds (and most 15 year olds) who have high TES potential don't have the artistry of more mature skaters. Unfortunately, under IJS, there is no score for artistry or overall presentation. Young jumpers can get high PCS by cramming their programs with transitions and doing a lot of one-foot skating. Those things do not add up to artistry. The proposal to raise the age limit is really an attempted fix for the deficiencies of the IJS rather than an attempt to protect younger skaters.

 

[clairecloutier]

Phil Hersh reports that the ISU will livestream the June 4-8 ISU Congress on the ISU YouTube channel https://twitter.com/olyphil/status/996808086496178177

 

[Sylvia]

ISU's May 16th press release: https://www.isu.org/news/145-news/12087-isu-congress-2018-seville-esp-preview?templateParam=15

For the first time the ISU Congress will be available as a live stream on the ISU YouTube Channel. Viewers will be able to follow the Congress sessions, Figure Skating and Speed Skating Sessions and the Elections live. Further information will be available closer to the date.
Congress Program
June 4: Opening of the Congress / Workshops
June 5 – 7: Full Congress / Figure Skating and Speed Skating Branch Sessions
June 8: Full Congress and Elections

 

[misskarne]

I'll say outright: I'm very uncomfortable about how many of these target Zagitova. It feels very much like she's being picked on because she happened to be the best.

I mean, she was the only Senior lady doing an all-backloaded program this season and suddenly proposals come out (from Canada and Japan as if their reasoning wasn't obvious) to ban full backloading. She won the Olympics at 15 (as if that's never happened before) and suddenly there's an "URGENT!" proposal to raise the Senior age limit. And so poorly thought through is this "URGENT!" proposal, so desperate are they, that they fill it with absolute bullshit reasons like "creating idols" and "women are afraid of competing against these girls".

Not a nice feeling to see adults in big groups ganging up on a fifteen year old.

 

[starrynight]

I don't know if it's against Zagitova. It's what is under Zagitova that I suspect people are concerned about and what could happen in the future. I'm thinking that it's about the potential we may have a new 15 year old each season who has quads for a brief time, is utterly unbeatable for a very brief period and then is replaced by the next.

As for Zagitova, her biggest concern is probably the younger girls in her group. I suspect in a year's time she may be wishing herself there was a higher age limit.

 

[el henry]

The New York Times has this article today, relevant to the current discussion:

Reducing Injury Risk in Youth Sports
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/...-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

Thank you for this link; I keep referring to it in GS and I never actually link it

I’ll say here what I said there about the “ ohmygawd ohmygawd they’ll train the hard jumps anyway so what’s the point of the rules, we can’t have them, we can’t stop progress” argument.

Who gives a rat’s patootie?

Do we get rid of the NFL concussion protocol because some driven top-flight football players are going to practice in violation of it anyway? Do we get rid of helmets in hockey because precocious talented elite hockey players may practice without them? As my momma used to say, if everyone else was jumping off the Brooklyn Bridge, would you jump too?

I happen to believe the risks are real, with good science behind it and should be minimized. Rules would emphasize that and help prevent it. What teens are going to do “anyway” is certainly no argument against it.

And I also don’t believe it. I’m so ancient, I remember helmets first arriving in the NHL. The pros won’t wear them, we heard, they’ll practice without them anyway, we heard, it restricts peripheral vision and presents health risks of its own, we heard.

Look at NHL players now....

 

[mag]

The New York Times has this article today, relevant to the current discussion:

Reducing Injury Risk in Youth Sports
https://www.nytimes.com/2018/05/14/...-region&region=bottom-well&WT.nav=bottom-well

Interesting article, especially the part about training the number of hours based on your age (10 year olds training no more than 10 hours per week for example.) What is missing and IMHO what skating needs are guidelines for how many hours a week can safely be spent jumping based on the age AND maturity of the skater (an 11 year old who has gone through puberty may be able to safely jump more for example) and also guidelines for off ice based again on age and maturity rather than skating level. I also think federations need to take another look at their development models because given when they want kids to have a 2A and their first triple, 8 year olds are going to have to be training more than 8 hours per week. Right now, coaches and parents who do what this article says they should do get their Skaters penalized. It is a long term penalty because in most cases if you are not identified as a Star early on, it really doesn’t matter how many stars burn out, you will never be looked at. There will always be another one coming along to burn brightly for year or two.

Again, until there is some serious, long term studies done specifically about skating, and guidelines are published based on the studies, and development models are linked to those guidelines, changing age limits is just paying lip service to athlete safety.

 

[Willin]

@el henry Amen to that. We can never 100% prevent something, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try anyways.

@mag Although I fully agree with your sentiment, I don't see skaters ever facing a penalty for that. Russia and China seem to find working kids insanely hard to not be child abuse, and in Japan working yourself half to death is valued. So none of those countries would ever implement such a policy. The US and Canada, wanting to stay competitive, wouldn't make that a policy domestically. Even if made policy, neither the ISU nor National federations have the resources to monitor every skater for how long they are training - and we know how accurate self-report is, especially when lying is beneficial.

 

[MacMadame]

There was nothing in that article to suggest raising the age for Seniors would have any impact at all on skating injuries.

IMO raising the age of Seniors is a lazy way to deal with the problems people see. It doesn't address them directly and it's not even clear what it will accomplish. Limiting the number of hours skaters practice when younger won't happen just because the age of Seniors is raised. Limiting the number of jumps skaters do won't happen either. It won't force skaters to magically get mature presentation (whatever that means) either.

If you want to solve a problem, you have to define it and then address it. That's not what's happening here with this particular proposal.

 

[Jayar]

IFS's article on some of the changes:
https://www.ifsmagazine.com/new-season-new-rules/

 

[HeManSkaterDad]

The article states, "Falls will now receive a GOE of -5." No, it gets -5 points, to be combined with any positive points (bullets) to obtain the GOE score. The only automatic -5 GOE is doing a jump element not according to requirements in the short program. I hate when I see this kind of statement, because that is not what the rules say (and I believe some judges do not know/recognize this) and even if you parse it to fit the rules, the average person reading it is more likely to interpret it as stating a fall is an automatic -5 GOE score.

Just as bullets accumulate positive GEO, a fall accumulates -5 points. As (again) stated in the most recent ISU technical communication (#2186), "The final GOE of a performed element is based on the combination of both positive and negative aspects." It is theoretically possible for a skater to fall on a jump and still have a GOE of +1 by getting all 6 positive bullets (although I would question anything above -2 as not practically possible), when properly applying the rules. Considering that two bullets, steps into a jump and matches the music, are choreographed and are likely to have been completed before a fall, we should be seeing lots of -3 or -4 GOE scores

It irritates me to no end to see a skater working so hard, do a jump with good everything (worthy of 4-6 bullets) but just not quite hold the landing or even hit a bad patch of ice and fall, only to get an 'automatic' -5 from the judges. The new GOE system exaggerates the GOE, making proper judging even more crucial, and judges not following the guidelines only diminishes the sport by by supporting those who say the judging is fixed/unfair/biased/inconsistent.

 

[gkelly]

Just as bullets accumulate positive GEO, a fall accumulates -5 points. As (again) stated in the most recent ISU technical communication (#2186), "The final GOE of a performed element is based on the combination of both positive and negative aspects."

Yes, this has been true for years and still is.

It is theoretically possible for a skater to fall on a jump and still have a GOE of +1 by getting all 6 positive bullets (although I would question anything above -2 as not practically possible), when properly applying the rules.

I've never heard that judges can start with +6 before applying reductions. My understanding was that the positive grades are capped at +5 even if the skater achieves all 6 of the present bullet points.

Also, it would be impossible for a skater to fall on a jump and still earn the "good takeoff and landing" bullet point. So at a maximum they'd be starting from 5 in any case.

However, in ISU communication 2186, the ISU has added the following note:

GOE evaluation
In case of significant error (e.g. fall, landing on two feet, stepping out of landing, wrong edge (e), downgraded (<<), serious problems on the descent of the lift, serious problems on the catch of the Twist) the starting GOE for the evaluation cannot be higher than +2.

So if you start with +2 and then subtract -5 for a fall, the highest possible final GOE for the element would be -3.

Considering that two bullets, steps into a jump and matches the music, are choreographed and are likely to have been completed before a fall, we should be seeing lots of -3 or -4 GOE scores

I expect that we will see some -3s and -4s from some judges for some of the top skaters, those who have big jumps and can also incorporate most of the other positive bullet points and avoid other negatives.

 

[Coco]

I think it would go a long way to help people feel confident in the Integrity of the judging if all the bullet points that a judge awards / selects are published

 

[gkelly]

How could they be recorded in real time? We don't want judges looking away from the skaters more than they already do for purposes of writing and/or clicking the computer screen. Maybe give them each a personal assistant they can whisper to without looking down, and the assistant can do the input?

Ultimately, most of the GOE decisions especially on the positive side are pure judgment calls. You're free to disagree with them. Judges are free to disagree with each other. That's why there are multiple judges.

Why default to the assumption that every disagreement represents a lack of integrity?

 

[Jayar]

The article states, "Falls will now receive a GOE of -5." No, it gets -5 points, to be combined with any positive points (bullets) to obtain the GOE score. The only automatic -5 GOE is doing a jump element not according to requirements in the short program. I hate when I see this kind of statement, because that is not what the rules say (and I believe some judges do not know/recognize this) and even if you parse it to fit the rules, the average person reading it is more likely to interpret it as stating a fall is an automatic -5 GOE score.

A fall *IS* scored as a -5 GOE... the bullet points could pull it out of the -5. That's all the writer was saying.

 

[Coco]

I thought the judges literally tapping the various bullet points which were on the screen and not just giving a raw number for goe into their little computers

 

[gkelly]

I thought the judges literally tapping the various bullet points which were on the screen and not just giving a raw number for goe into their little computers

Can you design what the data input screen would look like and try using it yourself in real time?

I don't think it would be as easy to use as you're imagining. But if you can prove me wrong, go for it!

PM me if you want to brainstorm.

 

[Aussie Willy]

I thought the judges literally tapping the various bullet points which were on the screen and not just giving a raw number for goe into their little computers

No you touch one GOE for the element.

This is a link to the manual for those setting the system up which explains how the judging screens work. While it doesn't have the 5 range GOE on it the principle is the same.

https://www.isujudgingsystem.com/fi...ownload/Help/FS_ISUScoreFS_UserManual_3.4.pdf

Can you design what the data input screen would look like and try using it yourself in real time?

I don't think it would be as easy to use as you're imagining. But if you can prove me wrong, go for it!

PM me if you want to brainstorm.

Totally agree. I think people totally underestimate these things.

 

[Coco]

Hmmm...I'll need to learn more about what judges are seeing then get back to you.

This explains a lot, though.