ISU Junior Grand Prix 2024-25

[Karen-W]

Looks like the USFS is making SOME decisions for the placeholder spots in Poland & China -

Cleo Park has replaced Josephine Lee for Poland; Patrick Blackwell has replaced Jacob Sanchez for China.

Also, Rothenbuehler/Berei have been WD from Poland, which is too bad. I hope there isn't an injury issue.

 

[Karen-W]

USFS updated their Int'l Assignments page, JGP Poland entries are confirmed:

Women - Cleo Park
Pairs - Carpenter/Maravilla, Hansen/Church, Moss/Galbavy
Ice Dance - Pedersen/Starr, Wolfkostin/Tsarevski

No Men because the US only earned 6 JGP spots and this is the event where we don't get to send a man.

 

[Stephanie]

I don't understand USFS' strategy of sending Blackwell to Wuxi. It will be a super tough event with Rio Nakata, Jaekeun Lee, Yanhao Li, and Tonghe Tian. Slovenia seems like a safer event if the goal is to qualify for the JGPF.

The only reasoning I can think of is that arranging a last minute trip to Asia would be much tougher than one to Europe hence they needed to decide now who was going to Wuxi and they can leave the Slovenia assignment until after seeing how Jacob Sanchez does in Ankara and potentially any other NQS results.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

I don't understand USFS' strategy of sending Blackwell to Wuxi. It will be a super tough event with Rio Nakata, Jaekeun Lee, Yanhao Li, and Tonghe Tian. Slovenia seems like a safer event if the goal is to qualify for the JGPF.

That’s sucks why did they do that.

And just like I complained when the first entries for the first assignment came out all the countries bombarded GP number one with all of their top skaters and then you get to an event like today, where there is like only 20 in the men’s event I think 15 in dance, and the highest score for women is not great at all. They don’t spread the wealth around. Everybody sends everybody to assignments number one and two, and then they start to thin out a little bit. I don’t understand why countries don’t spread out there skaters so not everybody is jammed at event number one.

 

[Seerek]

Not really related to the assignment lists.... at the beginning of the women's free skate in JGP Thailand, when looking at the judges lists, Mark exclaimed, "woah, Anett Poetzsch? Wasn't she World Champion in the 80s?" , as Anett was one of the technical specialists in Bangkok.

 

[Frau Muller]

Not really related to the assignment lists.... at the beginning of the women's free skate in JGP Thailand, when looking at the judges lists, Mark exclaimed, "woah, Anett Poetzsch? Wasn't she World Champion in the 80s?" , as Anett was one of the technical specialists in Bangkok.

Mark, Anett was, uh, Olympic champion in 1980. World champion in 1978 & 1980. Also four-time European champ.

 

[Frau Muller]

Not sure where to put this…but the JGP Ankara schedule is up. So far only with specific order for Men and Dance SPs/RDs… odd because those two disciplines happen last, after Women & Pairs.

ISU JGP Ankara 2024

Event results for ISU JGP Ankara 2024

results.isu.org

Jacob Sanchez skates in GP 1, right after another fave of mine, Arlet Levandi.

I’m sorry that the originally-scheduled R. Zich (Italy) withdrew. I wanted to see his convicted-murderer program again, LOL!

- - -
Pairs up an hour later. Women’s not up, of now.

 

[ice coverage]

Not sure where to put this…but the JGP Ankara schedule is up. So far only with specific order for Men and Dance SPs/RDs… odd because those two disciplines happen last, after Women & Pairs.

ISU JGP Ankara 2024

Event results for ISU JGP Ankara 2024

results.isu.org

... Pairs up an hour later. Women’s not up, of now.

JGP Ankara draw for Women was not scheduled to start until 14:30 local time (barely fifteen minutes ago, if my time conversion is correct).

Draw for Men was scheduled for 11:15 local time; Dance 12:15; Pairs 13:30 -- so it makes sense that starting orders were posted in that order.

https://results.isu.org/schedules/jgptur2024_ColouredTimeSchedule.pdf

 

[Frau Muller]

Women are up now on the Ankara schedule. Samodelkina’s return (GP 5)!
I’m praying for a win by Gladki!

 

[Karen-W]

Women are up now on the Ankara schedule. Samodelkina’s return (GP 5)!

All of this stuff belongs in Kiss n Cry. Someone will start the appropriate threads in there today.

 

[Frau Muller]

I was wondering because the Women begin first. W SPs begin in about 18 hours.

 

[SkateFanBerlin]

Could USFS change the Wuxi men AGAIN? Did USFS jump the gun with Blackwell?

 

[Stephanie]

Jacob Sanchez will get Slovenia and Patrick Blackwell with go to Wuxi, so second assignments for both

 

[Karen-W]

Could USFS change the Wuxi men AGAIN? Did USFS jump the gun with Blackwell?

Jacob Sanchez will get Slovenia and Patrick Blackwell with go to Wuxi, so second assignments for both

Yes, and that's the correct choice given the relative strengths of each field. Both guys left points on the table in their first JGPs but I think Patrick's scoring potential is higher than Jacob's and he's going to need all of that to medal against the deeper field that there is in Wuxi. Even if Patrick only manages a bronze, he is still going to be ahead of Nakamura in the JGPF standings and should be able to qualify, depending on how the rest of the results over the last 3 JGPs shake out.

 

[her grace]

I actually think this could work out okay for the long-term anyway. Sanchez has the best chance to make the final since he's already got a gold, and he's had several chances to compete in deep fields (e.g., YOG and Jr. Worlds). What he needs is to get out of his head in the LP, and I don't think the competitiveness of the field is really the reason for his inconsistencies so he may as well practice competing in an easier field. Blackwell is really green, and we might end up sending him to Jr. Worlds, so let's send him to the deep field to simulate that experience, and hey, maybe he rises to the occasion and makes the JGP Final, too?!

 

[Frau Muller]

I was surprised to see Italy’s Anna Pezzetta on the list of this week’s JGP Gdansk/Solidarity Cup, as she also competed at a recent senior event, CS Lombardia (5th there). Remember when Nicolai Memola did both Jr and sr events a couple of years ago?

https://results.isu.org/events/jgppol2024_JuniorWomen.htm

 

[Karen-W]

I was surprised to see Italy’s Anna Pezzetta on the list of this week’s JGP Gdansk/Solidarity Cup, as she also competed at a recent senior event, CS Lombardia (5th there). Remember when Nicolai Memola did both Jr and sr events a couple of years ago?

https://results.isu.org/events/jgppol2024_JuniorWomen.htm

Everyone expected she was going to be assigned to the JGP when the GP initial assignments came out and neither she nor Sarina Joos got even one assignment. Additionally, when the 1st JGP entry list came out, she was listed as a substitute, which confirmed that she would be doing the JGP.

 

[Karen-W]

JGP Slovenia assignments were updated on the ISU page - As expected, Jacob Sanchez is now listed for the US; rather unexpectedly - Sophie Joline von Felten got the nod for the women.

JGP China assignments were also updated on the ISU page - Mia Kalin is now the US entry for the women.

 

[Frau Muller]

JGP Slovenia assignments were updated on the ISU page - As expected, Jacob Sanchez is now listed for the US; rather unexpectedly - Sophie Joline von Felten got the nod for the women.

JGP China assignments were also updated on the ISU page - Mia Kalin is now the US entry for the women.

Good for Jacob.

 

[Jonas]

JGP Slovenia assignments were updated on the ISU page - As expected, Jacob Sanchez is now listed for the US; rather unexpectedly - Sophie Joline von Felten got the nod for the women.

JGP China assignments were also updated on the ISU page - Mia Kalin is now the US entry for the women.

Looking forward to see some more 3Axels and quads from the US women! IIRC, Sophie has 3Axel-3toe and a solo 3Axel as part of her FS planned content, while Mia has 4toe, 4Sal, and 3Axel planned.

 

[Karen-W]

And the USFS has updated their international assignments page to include the JGP assignments for Slovenia & China, confirming the updates made to the entry lists.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

The USA has no men’s in the current Grand Prix event in Poland. I wondered how is it determined that it was that specific event? Could the USFSA have chosen any event to send no competitors?

And this event just seems so uneven with only one Japanese skater, one Korean skater no American skaters. Does this event seem to be unbalance?

 

[Karen-W]

The USA has no men’s in the current Grand Prix event in Poland. I wondered how is it determined that it was that specific event? Could the USFSA have chosen any event to send no competitors?

And this event just seems so uneven with only one Japanese skater, one Korean skater no American skaters. Does this event seem to be unbalance?

The ISU has a table and process to determining which events the countries who are entitled to 6 assignments, 5 assignments, etc are assigned - the ISU is trying to have an equal number of competitors at each event and don't concern themselves with the potential relative strength of each field. It is what it is.

It's a bit surprising that Japan is not utilizing all of their JGP assignments for the men this year, not surprising that neither Korea nor Slovakia are utilizing all of their JGP assignments.

Hopefully our men will finish high enough at Jr Worlds next year to ensure at least 1 spot at each JGP.

 

[tangerine dream]

Are Japan's unused spots being reallocated to other countries?

 

[her grace]

Are Japan's unused spots being reallocated to other countries?

No, because they decided not to use them after the reallocation deadline.

 

[tangerine dream]

No, because they decided not to use them after the reallocation deadline.

That's rather unfortunate for whoever would have gotten them. It looks like they would have gone to FRA, then EST, then CAN. Slovakia & Korea haven't used all their spots either so I guess they also waited until after the reallocatine deadline. There's probably not much reason for countries to give up spots even if they're not going to use them knowing they could go to athletes from other countries that might beat their skaters. It seems like there should be a better way to assign JGP spots but I'm not sure what that would be.

 

[Karen-W]

That's rather unfortunate for whoever would have gotten them. It looks like they would have gone to FRA, then EST, then CAN. Slovakia & Korea haven't used all their spots either so I guess they also waited until after the reallocatine deadline. There's probably not much reason for countries to give up spots even if they're not going to use them knowing they could go to athletes from other countries that might beat their skaters. It seems like there should be a better way to assign JGP spots but I'm not sure what that would be.

Agreed. Georgia also has not used all of their JGP spots on the Women's side and their fed surely knew they only had 2 women so they would have no need for all 6 spots they earned. I understand some countries want to be strategic in not necessarily relinquishing their earned spots so they have some flexibility should injuries arise, but it's unfortunate that the spots aren't able to be reallocated once they've determined they won't be using those spots.

Looking at the Allocated Spots v. Used Spots by discipline:

Men -
2 per JGP - KOR, JPN & SVK

KOR - 14 spots - 10 used for 5 skaters (2 each)
JGP #1 - 2
JGP #2 - 1
JGP #3 - 1
JGP #4 - 2
JGP #5 - 1
JGP #6 - 1
JGP #7 - 2

JPN - 14 spots - 10 spots used for 6 skaters (4 with 2; 2 with 1)
JGP #1 - 2
JGP #2 - 2
JGP #3 - 2
JGP #4 - 1
JGP #5 - 1
JGP #6 - 1
JGP #7 - 1

SVK - 14 spots - 6 spots used for 3 skaters (2 each)
JGP #1 - 1
JGP #2 - 2
JGP #3* - 0
JGP #4 - 1
JGP #5 - 1
JGP #6 - 1
JGP #7* - 0

* JGP #3 & #7 are Thailand & China - it was a no-brainer that a small, European fed with not many Jr men to begin with was not going to utilize their spots at these two JGPs, but it's pretty clear they were not relinquished prior to the reallocation deadline, otherwise Canada would have picked up a 2nd spot in Thailand which it did not.

FRA - 7 spots - 6 spots used for 3 skaters (2 each); no additional spots picked up at any JGPs - they were 1st on the priority list, so it is clear they passed on accepting any additional spots made available for reallocation.
JGP #1 - 1
JGP #2 - 1
JGP #3 - 1
JGP #4 - 1
JGP #5 - 0
JGP #6 - 1
JGP #7 - 1

EST - 7 spots + 1 picked up during reallocation for 7 total - 4 spots used for 2 skaters (2 each); - they were 2nd on the priority list, so, again, they passed on accepting any additional spots after JGP #1, but they also did not relinquish any of their spots despite it being pretty obvious they weren't going to send skaters to Thailand or China.
JGP #1 - 1+1 unused (initially there were 2 entries)
JGP #2 - 0
JGP #3 - 0
JGP #4 - 1
JGP #5 - 1
JGP #6 - 1
JGP #7 - 0

CAN - 7 spots initially - 3 picked up during reallocation for 10 spots used for 6 skaters (4 with 2; 2 with 1)
JGP #1 - 1
JGP #2 - 1
JGP #3 - 1
JGP #4 - 2
JGP #5 - 2
JGP #6 - 1
JGP #7 - 2

Now, onto the 4 countries that had 6 spots - these countries can relinquish spots and those are made available for reallocation (this is not done for countries that have less than 6 spots earned)...

GBR - 6 spots - 6 spots used for 4 skaters (2 with 2; 2 with 1)
JGP #1 - 1
JGP #3 - 1
JGP #4 - 1
JGP #5 - 1
JGP #6 - 1
JGP #7 - 1

USA - 6 spots - 6 spots used for 4 skaters (2 with 2; 2 with 1)
JGP #1 - 1
JGP #2 - 1
JGP #3 - 1
JGP #4 - 1
JGP #6 - 1
JGP #7 - 1

POL - 6 spots + 2 as host for 8 spots - 7 spots used for 4 skaters (3 with 2; 1 with 1); uncertain if Poland relinquished their last spot at China before the reallocation deadline, what is clear is that it was unused.
JGP #1 - 1
JGP #2 - 1
JGP #4 - 1
JGP #5 - 3
JGP #6 - 1
JGP #7 - 0

NZL - 6 spots - 2 spots used for 1 skater (1 with 2)
JGP #1 - relinquished
JGP #3 - 1
JGP #4 - relinquished
JGP #5 - relinquished
JGP #6 - relinquished
JGP #7 - 1

Estonia's 2nd spot at JGP #1 came from New Zealand - and they initially intended to use it as they had 2 men on the initial entries list. That could be the reason why they did not relinquish all 7 of their spots before the reallocation deadline - they had 3 men listed as entries/substitutes through the first 5 JGPs (Martsenko, Levandi & Churakov) and perhaps thought all 3 would wind up with 2 and only changed their mind about sending Churakov out after their test skates in August.

We know that Canada's additional spots picked up at JGP #4 & 5 came from New Zealand's relinquished spots as NZL announced in May that they would only have 1 spot each at JGP #3 & 7 (and they were earmarked for Yanhao Li). What we don't know is which country relinquished their JGP #7 China spot which Canada then picked up - could have been Slovakia, Estonia or Poland. It definitely wasn't Japan as they originally had 2 men assigned to JGP #7 but WD one after poor results at his first JGP. So, we know why Canada didn't get a 2nd spot at JGP #1 (it went to Estonia); what's less clear is why Canada didn't pick up a 2nd one at JGP #2, 3 or 6 - especially #3 because there's no way that Slovakia or Estonia were going to use those spots and they should have been up front and relinquished them for reallocation.

I give both Japan and Korea a little bit of slack on not relinquishing their spots - Japan has plenty of skaters, so it really seems like a punishment to their junior guys that they aren't using all of those spots. Korea doesn't pay for the entire cost of the JGP for their 3-5 ranked men, so they basically allowed them to pick which events they wanted to attend (after their #1 & 2 men selected their events) and I can see the rationale in holding onto all 14 spots to give those men as much flexibility as possible in choosing their events to save airfare costs, etc.

I'll come back to analyze the Women's & Ice Dance reallocations in separate posts.

 

[her grace]

That's rather unfortunate for whoever would have gotten them. It looks like they would have gone to FRA, then EST, then CAN. Slovakia & Korea haven't used all their spots either so I guess they also waited until after the reallocatine deadline. There's probably not much reason for countries to give up spots even if they're not going to use them knowing they could go to athletes from other countries that might beat their skaters. It seems like there should be a better way to assign JGP spots but I'm not sure what that would be.

Canada had two spots at this event so they did pick up someone’s released spot. France didn’t send an entry and Estonia must have declined an additional entry since Canada was third in line. So even if Japan had released it, there was no one left to give it to.

Generally, countries release spots that they don’t intend to use ETA or enough countries do that the system works for those who receive extra spots. What happened with Japan is that they assigned all their spots, but pulled second spots from underperforming skaters. That’s not something they can reasonably predict by the reallocation deadline, which is before the JGP even starts.

Historically, very few feds sit on spots and don’t use them, which is to their credit because as you say, there could be a competitive advantage if they did so.

If that became a common practice, I would support increasing the spots from 7 to 10 for 4th-6th best countries. Actually, I’d support that anyway.

 

[Karen-W]

Canada had two spots at this event so they did pick up someone’s released spot. France didn’t send an entry and Estonia must have declined an additional entry since Canada was third in line. So even if Japan had released it, there was no one left to give it to.

I'm pretty sure Canada picked up the spot that New Zealand relinquished. I don't think France made any decisions on whether or not to utilize all their spots until after the reallocation deadline passed but also did not accept any additional spots during the reallocation process, otherwise Estonia wouldn't have picked up the additional entry at JGP #1. Either way, once France passed on accepting the JGP #1 relinquished spot, they went to the back of the line for the next relinquished spot - which wound up being the one NZL relinquished at JGP #4; and both France & Estonia then passed on the JGP #5 spot that NZL also relinquished.

Historically, very few feds sit on spots and don’t use them, which is to their credit because as you say, there could be a competitive advantage if they did so.

You know, I think that's true for SOME countries, but I think that's untrue for other countries. China was really greedy with their women's spots last season when they never had any intention of using them - their internal documents prior to their domestic Interclub comp that decided the JGP assignments clearly stated they wouldn't be sending ANY team to two of the European JGPs (I can't recall which ones off the top of my head). And then, Georgia also didn't use their spots when they only had Gurgenidze and clearly didn't need 7 spots - and those choices felt very "strategic" to deny both Switzerland and the US any additional spots if they could.

If that became a common practice, I would support increasing the spots from 7 to 10 for 4th-6th best countries. Actually, I’d support that anyway.

I actually would support this too. But, I also feel like the Reallocation Deadline needs to be revisited. For the Challenger Series events, Preliminary Entries must be entered 2-3 weeks before Entries by Name in the ISU Online Registration System (ORS). The ISU could easily add that requirement for the JGPs - Preliminary Entries by # due 2 weeks ahead of the Entries by Name deadline. If a country in Group A, B or C fails to enter the maximum # of entries, the those spots are automatically reallocated to the 1st fed in line and that fed has 48 hrs to accept the additional entry, if they decline then it goes to the 2nd fed, and so on until you've gone through all 7 countries in Groups B & C. And if a country in Group B or C fails to enter anyone in the Preliminary Entries by # then they're automatically skipped in the reallocation process.

 

[AngieNikodinovLove (ANL)]

Watching today’s short program in pairs from Poland, I love the Ukraine team, although he looks like he should be well into seniors, he has to be in his mid to late 20s no?

I mean, waxed mustache that curls on the ends, a beard. And a key to the harem.

Listening to Mark right now. Oh so this was just a one off? They’re just doing this competition for Feedback?