ISU confirms more positive doping tests

[vireo]

(Mutko's quote)

Am I reading Mutko's quote correctly?
He's basically saying that instead of just complying and trying to stay drug free, Russia should just develop its own performance enhancing drugs that they don't share with the world, so maybe no one would know about them and they'd never get on WADA's radar to ban them?

Geez Louise....

I was stunned by that quote. Apparently, he isn't concerned that Russian athletes have been doping; he's only concerned that they got caught. His solution isn't to clean up the sports he's responsible for, but to find ways Russian athletes can dope and get away with it. Unbelievable.

 

[VarBar]

Really? A lot of guess work and jumping to conclusions here. By that logic, if a substance is being consumed by a lot of athletes, it must have performance enhancing qualities? How about vitamins and minerals for a healthy body? May be you would call those OEDs as well.

But is Meldonium a vitamin? Or a mineral? From what I've read, Meldonium is used to treat angina, myocardial infarction, acute ischemic stroke or chronic heart failure. Have all those athletes been using the drug for what it's usually prescribed for? Are they all arrhythmic like Sharapova? Do they all have a family history of diabetes? Please, enlighten me, what have those athletes been taking the drug for?

 

[Deleted member 221]

Wow. Not sure where the other thread referenced is, but this news is potentially shedding new light on Tuktamysheva's performance last season relative to this season.

 

[BlueRidge]

Wow. Not sure where the other thread referenced is, but this news is potentially shedding new light on Tuktamysheva's performance last season relative to this season.

did she say something about using it before it was banned?

 

[Sylvia]

did she [Tuktamysheva] say something about using it before it was banned?

Google translation of her interview is posted here (post #227): http://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/ind...sitive-doping-tests.98122/page-8#post-4735784

ETA from earlier in this thread:

Link to a NYT article (published March 10 online & March 11 in print):
Effects of Meldonium on Athletes Are Hazy

 

[MsZem]

Wow. Not sure where the other thread referenced is, but this news is potentially shedding new light on Tuktamysheva's performance last season relative to this season.

Does it shed light on her performance in the 2013-14, too? Her career so far doesn't have any discernable pattern that I can see.

 

[MacMadame]

I think that the 60 athletes referred to are those at the Baku Games who either tested positive or declared the use of this medication, which of course was before it was banned. I am not aware that 60 athletes have tested positive since 1 January 2016.

Read the article. The 60 are now 99+ and they all tested positive this year. 2016.

Exactly. It's the desperate attempt to find any defense and seeing which one sticks that makes me really question the credibility.

I disagree. These are not statements all from the same person or agency or even country. Each athlete is making their own excuse based on what they think happened to them. They are all guessing, basically, if they know they didn't take the drug in 2016 or they are lying if they did take it. If one athlete was making all the excuses, then it would be a "seeing which defense sticks" situation.

We don't know what RUSADA was able to do besides publish on their website (on September 30, 2015) the notice of meldonium/Mildronate being banned by WADA starting on Jan. 1st. How many Russian athletes (or athletes in general) would bother to check the website for such updates?

WADA changes the rules every year. Athletes should be trained to check in Dec. to see what's coming up in Jan. of that year.

I have absolutely no sympathy for an athlete who isn't pro-active. Sure, I get that different sports and countries have different cultures that make this more or less likely. BUT if you are an athlete on the international stage and this is basically your job, you need to set that aside and BE PROACTIVE.

Meldonium must have some obvious performance enhancing properties since so many athletes have been taking it. So WADA was probably right to put it on the banned substance list.

That's circular logic. People take many things that have actually been proven to not work because they believe it will work anyway. People's belief doesn't change the science of whether or not it will work. And there isn't a lot of science to support meldonium doing anything. There is only science to suggest that it might.

Historically many drugs and supplements have been promoted as performance or recovery enhancing based on the same type of studies done on meldonium (animal studies and with few studies on humans, all with small populations, usually male and usually fairly homogeneous) and most of them, when further studies are done on humans with a population of a significant size, turn out not to really do anything. I wouldn't be in the least surprised if this drug was one of those. It has those characteristics.

Something I don't think people realize is that when you are an individual trying to decide what supplements (if any) to take and what other recovery behaviors to engage in, that's very hard to know if what you are thinking of doing effective or not. Was it the Vitamin B12 I just started talking or am I just getting better sleep? Is it the meldonium or is it that new strength routine my trainer gave me?

Some athletes keep detailed logs of everything they do and constantly analysis their results against what they did looking for patterns and that helps. But people aren't a science experiment and it's really hard to control for all the variables. That is why we have studies and why, once the science is clear, sports change to match. But in the meantime, they are all looking for an edge and to continuously improve and they have a tendency to jump on fads and engage in a bit of magical thinking.

 

[rjblue]

People still continue to promote icing for injuries and inflammation when studies show that while it eases pain, it slows the healing process.

When enough people believe that something works, scientific evidence can take a long time to sink in and change their behavior.

 

[overedge]

one... Reputation? Seriously? The state who owns it will 'fix' the reputation no matter how bad things get.

Which only proves my point that reputation is important in any economic system. The state wouldn't bother to 'fix' it if it wasn't important.

 

[hanca]

Which only proves my point that reputation is important in any economic system. The state wouldn't bother to 'fix' it if it wasn't important.

On the contrary. Reputation in socialist system is something non existent. Because no one believes it, it is not really reputation. Maybe rather than reputation one could call it advert. Advert promoted by the state, who owns the 'business'.

 

[mag]

So was there anything that would prevent an athlete from having private testing done in say, early December, to check if there was any residual drug in their system? I am thinking that if I am an athlete who has been using a drug for years, I find out in September that it is about to be banned, and I know there is a chance I will be competing in early January. Wouldn't it make sense to make sure, prior to the ban coming into effect, that the drug had cleared my system?

I just don't buy the "I didn't get the notification" crap. It is your job to know. Website also generally have a notification system which will send you a notice if there is an update to the site.

Finally, I don't understand all the arguments around whether or not it is a PED. At this point, that is irrelevant. It was on the banned list. If chewing gum is on the banned list don't chew it. If you disagree with it being on the list, go through whatever process there is to get the decision reviewed, but stop taking the drug in the meantime (even if you think it is just like Vit C.)

 

[love_skate2011]

I was stunned by that quote. Apparently, he isn't concerned that Russian athletes have been doping; he's only concerned that they got caught. His solution isn't to clean up the sports he's responsible for, but to find ways Russian athletes can dope and get away with it. Unbelievable.

no, he's saying Russia should get its own manufactured drugs
like China

China gets its own drugs yet they arent being hunted for doping ?

 

[poths]

I would like to see how many medals and titles you would bring home if you took whatever drugs Armstrong or Sharapova were taking. Even if an ordinary person injected himself with an elephant dose of doping, he would still never be able to even come within the same stratosphere of the results those incredible athletes have achieved through a life of incredible hard work and unbelievable sacrifice.

Good luck to you with that, interesting, point of view.

 

[Sylvia]

Maria Sharapova and the Pharmaceutical Quest for an Edge: http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/12/u...and-the-pharmaceutical-quest-for-an-edge.html
Excerpts from the beginning and end:

It’s understandable that athletes at the highest end of the performance spectrum might look for any gain, any edge at all, that might help propel them to the top. Ego, fame and unbelievable amounts of money are at stake. But people all over the athletic spectrum are convinced that one supplement or another will make them healthier, faster or stronger, while other people seek a different sort of edge with drugs they hope will improve cognition.

There’s no magic here. We’ve become more and more successful at treating deficits and deficiencies in people. Those same therapies are not intended to improve healthy individuals. In our eternal quest to be better, however, many are willing to act without evidence in the hope they can leap ahead. Unfortunately, most of those people are getting all the harms of the substances they take, but few of the benefits.

 

[overedge]

On the contrary. Reputation in socialist system is something non existent. Because no one believes it, it is not really reputation. Maybe rather than reputation one could call it advert. Advert promoted by the state, who owns the 'business'.

Many companies in capitalism systems don't have good reputations, either, but they promote themselves as if they do.

 

[hanca]

Many companies in capitalism systems don't have good reputations, either, but they promote themselves as if they do.

But it is different if the business tries to promote themselves, than if state trying to promote it.

 

[MacMadame]

So was there anything that would prevent an athlete from having private testing done in say, early December, to check if there was any residual drug in their system?

If you have been told over and over that the drug is out of your system in a matter of days, and this is pretty much what everyone believes, most people would consider this an unnecessary expense.

I will say, if it was me, and I know I hadn't taken the drug in 2016, I would get testing done to prove it stays in your system longer than believed and use that to overturn my sentence.

I know an athlete who tested positive for PED use when they clearly weren't using them and the lawyer had tests done that showed they didn't have that PED in his system, then recreate their activities of the night before, get tested again, and they tested positive. Their case was dropped.

You could do this for meldonium. But have someone not under WADA take the drug of course. Someone your size and sex but who could take it legally.

Finally, I don't understand all the arguments around whether or not it is a PED.

Um, it's a discussion board? We like to discuss things.

Certainly the issue of whether or not the drug should be banned is a very interesting topic to a lot of people. Also, if someone can convince WADA that they made a mistake putting this drug on the banned list, that will change the punishments meted out.

 

[Vash01]

If you have been told over and over that the drug is out of your system in a matter of days, and this is pretty much what everyone believes, most people would consider this an unnecessary expense.

I will say, if it was me, and I know I hadn't taken the drug in 2016, I would get testing done to prove it stays in your system longer than believed and use that to overturn my sentence.

I know an athlete who tested positive for PED use when they clearly weren't using them and the lawyer had tests done that showed they didn't have that PED in his system, then recreate their activities of the night before, get tested again, and they tested positive. Their case was dropped.

You could do this for meldonium. But have someone not under WADA take the drug of course. Someone your size and sex but who could take it legally.


Um, it's a discussion board? We like to discuss things.

Certainly the issue of whether or not the drug should be banned is a very interesting topic to a lot of people. Also, if someone can convince WADA that they made a mistake putting this drug on the banned list, that will change the punishments meted out.

I read somewhere on fsu (can't remember the source) that according to WADA Meldonium remains in the system for 3 months and that's why the 3 month warning was given to the athletes. If this is true, IMO that is insufficient warning. It assumes that the instant the athlete receives the warning electronically, he/she reads it and implements corrections. There is no room for a time lag (from the time the email arrived to the athlete actually reading it, figuring out what it means and what he/she needs to do). Also there is no buffer if the 3 months residue is correct.

An experiment like you suggested would be very good, on multiple samples (people) and repeat it multiple times. If I was a disqualified skater, I would try to organize this.

I don't think anyone can convince WADA that they made a mistake putting the drug on the banned list. They are likely to stick to what they already decided.

 

[taz'smum]

People still continue to promote icing for injuries and inflammation when studies show that while it eases pain, it slows the healing process.

When enough people believe that something works, scientific evidence can take a long time to sink in and change their behavior.

Aw, I wish I'd known that!!
Last year, I religiously iced my broken wrist in between each of the 4 times a day physio sessions to try to reduce the inflammation.
Crap to find out now, that not only was I wasting my time, but also I was slowing down the healing process!!
I will certainly do some research before doing any home treatments in future!

This article gives good justification for not icing an injury
http://physicaltherapyweb.com/parad...ids-post-acute-soft-tissue-injuries-part-1-2/

 

[Rae35]

All skaters at ISU Championship level (and probably JGP and Challenger level, but I can't recall exactly) submit a health form. That is where they list any TEUs (Therapuetic Exemptions) for conditions like asthma.

If a skater has diabetes or a heart problem, or whatever it is Meldonium is prescribed for Therapuetic purposes, then it stands to reason that that condition would be listed on the ISU health form.

 

[Moustaffask8r]

You are probably right. I watch Canadian news and every time I'm watching and this is mentioned Sharapova is the story. Have not once heard Bobrova or figure skating mentioned. It's possible she has been mentioned but I personally haven't heard a word uttered regarding her or the sport.

Me neither.... Sharapova is a professional athletes....look at the stand in a tennis game and look at the money they make! Nothing to compare with figure skating or the drama and political stuff going on in this world... and ice dancing on top of it!!!

 

[Rock2]

I read somewhere on fsu (can't remember the source) that according to WADA Meldonium remains in the system for 3 months and that's why the 3 month warning was given to the athletes. If this is true, IMO that is insufficient warning.

This is not true.
The half-life of meldonium that I have read is 5 hours, which means every five hours, half the drug is gone from your system. In 48 hours there is virtually nothing in your system. Almost undetectable unless you have very sensitive testing thresholds.
This is a common mechanism of action for most drugs given the way your body disposes of stuff you put in it. The exception is time-release technology which I don't believe is applied here.

WADA publishes new banned lists every September, every year. September is chosen in part because it gives ample time to wean yourself off a drug and to have the final doses clear of your system and for you to change training/medicating regimens.

While it may be true that there is some left in your system after a few days or weeks, the testing thresholds are set to be high enough that they know based on half life stats that the drug was taken recently.

And just to make a general point, WADA isn't comprised solely of, say, politicians and administrators. It's an international panel of scientists and medical experts. They study drugs, they learn how they work and they collect quite a bit of data before they ban something. They know how much is left in your body when and what thresholds they need to test for. Countries or athletes that call this stuff into question to me come off as desperate to do anything they can to preserve their image and/or find a technicality to get them off.

 

[Sylvia]

Re-posting (from the B/S thread) this Russia Beyond The Headlines article: Who's to blame for the meldonium: Russia’s athletes, doctors or officials?

Professor Andrei Smolensky, director of the National Research Institute of Athletic Medicine at the Russian State University of Physical Education, Sport, Youth and Tourism (SCOLIPE), which has prepared numerous Soviet and Russian Olympic champions, agrees with Mutko.
"The doctors of the athletics federations are to blame for the story with meldonium,” he said. “They are not always careful in their responsibilities. WADA has severe rules that must unquestionably be followed.”
According to Smolensky, meldonium remains in the blood for “up to three months,” which is why the athletes had to stop taking the drug in October.
“Our doctors did not have the situation under control," he said.

This is the first time I've seen a doctor quoted as saying: "... meldonium remains in the blood for 'up to three months,' which is why the athletes had to stop taking the drug in October."

The RBTH article also quotes Alisher Aminov, vice president of the International Foundation of Support for Legal Initiatives, who believes that Russian Sports Minister Vitaly Mutko should be the one to resign (or step aside temporarily):

"The athletes were given banned drugs recommended by one center that was employing doctors and receiving instructions from Minister Mutko, the individual who more than anyone is interested in medals and victories,” said Aminov.
“The most effective way to overcome this dishonesty in Russian sport is to launch an independent public inquiry with the involvement of international organizations. Mutko must temporarily be removed from office until the end of the inquiry," he said.

Russian athletics doctor Alexander Yardoshvili is quoted in the article:

"Mildronate reduces the amount of creatine and synthesizes fatty acids. As a result, oxygen is freed that begins to actively nourish the zones that need it,” said Yardoshvili in an interview with the Gazeta.ru publication.
“Also, the drug produces magnesium in the organism and this element improves the activity of bones, ligaments, tendons and muscles, the whole musculoskeletal system," he said.

Thanks to @troika for finding the link to the Russian interview with Yardoshvili: http://www.footballtop.ru/news/alek...zhet-otdelatsya-dvumya-godami-diskvalifikacii
(Link to Google translation into English)

 

[AxelAnnie]

All I have to say is WOW! Exactly who I would blame. Thanks for the article. Have they released other names yet? I am now questioning some of those wonder babies.

 

[kwanfan1818]

Is three months the standard amount of lead time that WADA gives? Or is it drug-specific? "Stays in the blood for three months" and "Half life of five hours" is a contradiction, unless test thresholds are so low as to capture trace amounts or the half life is meaningless for athletes' body composition and/or metabolisms.

 

[Lacey]

Does anyone know when the "B" tests from Europeans are going to be cooked?

 

[quiqie]

But is Meldonium a vitamin? Or a mineral? From what I've read, Meldonium is used to treat angina, myocardial infarction, acute ischemic stroke or chronic heart failure. Have all those athletes been using the drug for what it's usually prescribed for? Are they all arrhythmic like Sharapova? Do they all have a family history of diabetes? Please, enlighten me, what have those athletes been taking the drug for?

Why do athletes take vitamins, anyway? It may enhance their performance and therefore put the ones who don't take them at disadvantage. Why do they consume glucose-containing drinks and food? It's a source of energy and as such, should be prohibited. How dare they drink water? Do they stop to even think how unfair it is to people who live in countries with limited access to drinkable water?
And while we are at it, why L-carnitine is not on the list of banned substances when it belongs to the same biological pathway as meldonium and has identical effects?

 

[barbk]

All I have to say is WOW! Exactly who I would blame. Thanks for the article. Have they released other names yet? I am now questioning some of those wonder babies.

My guess is that the wonder babies are the least likely to have benefitted from this -- it sounds like something that is more likely to have been beneficial to athletes out of their teens.

 

[hanca]

And while we are at it, why L-carnitine is not on the list of banned substances when it belongs to the same biological pathway as meldonium and has identical effects?

Perhaps because L-carnitine is used in the western countries and WADA did not want to rock the boat? I don't think banning meldonium was for protecting the athletes health or for getting rid of any potential advantage (enhancing performance).

 

[Jun Y]

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/20116348

In a study abstract I found the elimination half life is approximately 5 to 6 hours after a single dose and 15 hours after multidose.

A drug is considered completely eliminated after 5 half-lives (ie, 3% left of the peak concentration after an injection). So there's no way meldonium can stay in the body for more than 3 to 4 days.