ISU confirms more positive doping tests

[hanca]

???
I guess I wasn't clear.
My point is if it's on the watch list WADA must have studied it and got some data and evidence to point them to banning it. I don't think it's a random decision. Just like it's not a random decision to not ban caffeine. It's based on a number of things, including data, mechanism of action in the body and product information.

I was responding to the suggestion that we are crucifying violators when we don't know all that much about the drug. I'm saying there are people who do..and it's the people to put it on the banned list.

Are you so sure about that? Maybe you should find the document where WADA explains why they banned it and read it!

 

[hanca]

Reputation and being able to stay in business would be pretty important for most businesses no matter what economic system they were operating under. Reputation is important to a business regardless of whether it's serving its own profit goals or serving society as a whole.

Have you ever lived in a country with socialist system ? It seems that you have no idea what you are writing about! I have seen shops where the customer service is non existent (but I mean really non existent, not just poor), shop assistants who don't really care whether they sell something or not, because they won't be affected in any way by productivity (or lack of it), 'businesses' (if you can call it that way) owned by state, which means that for people working there (or shopping there) it feels like owned by no one... Reputation? Seriously? The state who owns it will 'fix' the reputation no matter how bad things get. Being able to stay in business? The state will just put in more money.

 

[MsZem]

Are you not dual citizen of US and Israel?

What an odd comment. What does that have to do with anything?

I also read the WADA document as to why this drug was moved from the watch list onto the banned list and I have to say I am not overly impressed with their reasoning. Basically, they are banning it because a lot of athletes use it. Not because it's proven effective or proven harmful.

That jumped out for me as well. Regardless of how one feels about the "everything performance-enhancing must go" approach, if this is how WADA wants to play it, they should at least be certain that a substance is actually performance enhancing. Athletes are not medical authorities (well, except for that one Finnish skater who's a doctor) or experts in any relevant scientific field, and doping policy should not be based on such flimsy reasoning.

 

[Deleted member 40371]

What an odd comment. What does that have to do with anything?


That jumped out for me as well. Regardless of how one feels about the "everything performance-enhancing must go" approach, if this is how WADA wants to play it, they should at least be certain that a substance is actually performance enhancing. Athletes are not medical authorities (well, except for that one Finnish skater who's a doctor) or experts in any relevant scientific field, and doping policy should not be based on such flimsy reasoning.

Well, it has to do with bringing politically motivated different subjects into an issue about doping. If you raise such an issue in a field outside politically incorrect section, someone or the other will point out the political inclination of said poster. Neither US or Israel are saints when it comes to international issues and combined has definitely caused more mess in the world.

 

[MsZem]

Well, it has to do with bringing politically motivated different subjects into an issue about doping. If you raise such an issue in a field outside politically incorrect section, someone or the other will point out the political inclination of said poster. Neither US or Israel are saints when it comes to international issues and combined has definitely caused more mess in the world.

I think you misunderstood PRlady's point. And regardless, this is not a discussion about the US or Israel, and her nationality is completely irrelevant here.

 

[morqet]

I agree. Such a large number of athletes failing the test for this particular drug suggests that something may be wrong. Typically you see just a few athletes failing it. I hope there will be a full investigation of this and the innocents will be reinstated.

Why is it so hard for some people to believe that athletes from a country with a very recent history of widespread state sponsored doping violations, some of whom (Kulizhnikov) have already served extended doping bans for other substances might have actually done something wrong?

The investigation into the Russian anti-doping agency Rusada last year found that:

• Wada should withdraw its accreditation of the Moscow laboratory as soon as possible and advocated the permanent removal of its director Grigory Rodchenko, whom it accuses of asking for and accepting bribes and intentionally destroying samples he was told to keep.
• some Russian doctors and/or laboratory personnel acted as enablers for systematic cheating along with athletics coaches.
• More than 1,400 samples were destroyed by Moscow laboratory officials after receiving written notification from Wada to preserve target samples.
• Russian security service FSB were present at the Moscow and Sochi labs and that this was part of a wider pattern of "direct intimidation and interference by the Russian state with the Moscow laboratory operations."
  
• Rusada gave athletes advance notice of tests, hid missed tests, bullied doping control officers and their families and took bribes to cover up missed tests.

I think it's more believable that a country with a recent history like this got caught on the hop thinking they could cover up this drug, rather than any of the excuses we've seen coming out of Russia ranging from "I was never informed" "someone spiked the injection", "it somehow stays in the body longer than any scientific study has ever shown" to "Wada must have swapped the samples for ones from last year as part of a western anti-Russian conspiracy".

 

[Marco]

Re the over 60 athletes: Personally, I think that so many athletes testing positive means something is wrong with the system. Either their test is giving lots of false positives or this drug stays in your system much longer than was originally thought and a bunch of athletes who took the drug in 2015 but not 2016 are going to be punished even though they didn't break any rules.

It's a possibility but not necessarily always true. Another possibility is that there really are many athletes cheating.

There is too much material and I have only read some of them, but what time did they announce that the drug will be moved to the banned list? If I know a drug is to be added to the banned list in 3 months, I will probably stop taking it right away in case there are traces to be found in my samples in 3 months and 1 week.

I also read the WADA document as to why this drug was moved from the watch list onto the banned list and I have to say I am not overly impressed with their reasoning. Basically, they are banning it because a lot of athletes use it. Not because it's proven effective or proven harmful.

This sounds weird. Either way though, if someone takes it when it is already on the banned list, s/he should be held responsible.

 

[VanillaIce]

I think that the 60 athletes referred to are those at the Baku Games who either tested positive or declared the use of this medication, which of course was before it was banned. I am not aware that 60 athletes have tested positive since 1 January 2016.

 

[Katha]

Why is it so hard for some people to believe that athletes from a country with a very recent history of widespread state sponsored doping violations, some of whom (Kulizhnikov) have already served extended doping bans for other substances might have actually done something wrong?

The investigation into the Russian anti-doping agency Rusada last year found that:

• Wada should withdraw its accreditation of the Moscow laboratory as soon as possible and advocated the permanent removal of its director Grigory Rodchenko, whom it accuses of asking for and accepting bribes and intentionally destroying samples he was told to keep.
• some Russian doctors and/or laboratory personnel acted as enablers for systematic cheating along with athletics coaches.
• More than 1,400 samples were destroyed by Moscow laboratory officials after receiving written notification from Wada to preserve target samples.
• Russian security service FSB were present at the Moscow and Sochi labs and that this was part of a wider pattern of "direct intimidation and interference by the Russian state with the Moscow laboratory operations."
  
• Rusada gave athletes advance notice of tests, hid missed tests, bullied doping control officers and their families and took bribes to cover up missed tests.

I think it's more believable that a country with a recent history like this got caught on the hop thinking they could cover up this drug, rather than any of the excuses we've seen coming out of Russia ranging from "I was never informed" "someone spiked the injection", "it somehow stays in the body longer than any scientific study has ever shown" to "Wada must have swapped the samples for ones from last year as part of a western anti-Russian conspiracy".

No, that quite a few athletes in different disciplines tested positive for this substance suggests that it was systemic and those who had been taking it thought for some reason that they could continue to do so without getting caught. It doesn't look pretty. As has been said, it's creating the impression that at this point the Russian sports establishment is throwing random stuff at the wall to see what sticks: Sabotage! Lab mistakes! Lie detector tests! I didn't know what the doctor gave me! I took it last year and it stayed in my body! Didn't read my e-mails!

All of those (okay, the lie detector one gets points for creativity...) are fairly typical excuses dopers have used in the past. The Russians apparently decided to use them all at once! Which is why you see it getting ridiculed in many places and it doesn't come across as particularly credible. It creates the perception of desperate flailing to find some loophole to get their athletes off the hook, or at least to reduce their bans.

 

[VGThuy]

Exactly. It's the desperate attempt to find any defense and seeing which one sticks that makes me really question the credibility.

 

[gingercat]

It appears that the long-term effects include foolhardiness, scheming, and a refusal to take responsibility for one's own actions.

The athletes have emails not only from WADA, they have them from their own Governing body. All Figure Skaters are required to take an on line class through WADA for ISU participation. One of the things that is stressed is NEVER take anything that you do not personally know what exactly it is and if it is an allowed substance. There are no excuses. So Vagabond must be right!

 

[Sylvia]

I think that the 60 athletes referred to are those at the Baku Games who either tested positive or declared the use of this medication, which of course was before it was banned. I am not aware that 60 athletes have tested positive since 1 January 2016.

Re-posting Christopher Clarey's article in the New York Times: More Than 60 Athletes Have Tested Positive for Meldonium

More than 60 athletes, including Olympic medalists and world champions, have tested positive this year for meldonium <snip>...
“Regarding the number of meldonium positives, I can tell you that it was at 60 adverse analytical findings (since January 1st) recorded on Monday and that number is growing,” Ben Nichols, a spokesman for WADA, said Thursday in an email.
Many of the athletes who have tested positive have not been publicly identified because their cases are still being adjudicated.

 

[missing]

The World Anti-Doping Agency is now reporting 99 positive test results for meldonium.

 

[LarrySK8]

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/11/09/sport/athletics-doping-wada-coe/

http://qz.com/544906/russia-is-accu...-program-and-may-be-banned-from-the-olympics/

http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-11-10/russian-athletes-aren-t-the-only-cheaters

http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/nov/15/sports-cheats-greed-politics-athletics-iaaf

We should have seen this coming ....

 

[altai_rose]

???
I guess I wasn't clear.
My point is if it's on the watch list WADA must have studied it and got some data and evidence to point them to banning it. I don't think it's a random decision. Just like it's not a random decision to not ban caffeine. It's based on a number of things, including data, mechanism of action in the body and product information.

I was responding to the suggestion that we are crucifying violators when we don't know all that much about the drug. I'm saying there are people who do..and it's the people to put it on the banned list.

If it's based on scientific studies and data, then there's always room to debate the data, as well as WADA's interpretation of the data. It seems that WADA also pulls drugs on and off the list or changes the detection levels quite frequently -- so either there's a substantial amount of new data coming in that changes their interpretation (I'm skeptical about this because of the slow rate of scientific research/validation), or their original decision was flawed. Unfortunately, WADA does not publish complete information about the tests they use, except to legal panels on request (see 2nd article), so their data and conclusions are not open to scientific peer review.

Some interesting Nature editorials (though I doubt the articles are open access)
The science of doping: the processes used to charge athletes with cheating are often based on flawed statistics and flawed logic
The WADA response to the article, Doping: world agency sets standards to promote fair play

 

[skatfan]

Apparently Tuk is admitting that she took Meldonium prior to Jan 1st. (via Facebook link on the TSL page). Sorry the link wasn't copying.

 

[Sylvia]

Apparently Tuk is admitting that she took Meldonium prior to Jan 1st.

The Russian article was posted in the Russian news thread yesterday:

Tuktamysheva states that she also took meldonium until recently:

http://www.sports.ru/others/figure-skating/1037939810.html

Google translation:

World champion Elizaveta Tuktamysheva said that also took mildronat.

- Meldonium, mildronat I also saw earlier, but just know that it is considered to be doping, and immediately stopped taking it this year.

- You read the letter for yourself, here's the list, or you doctor said?
- The fact of the matter is that nobody told me, I learned this from my friends-skaters.

- Who should watch something behind it?
- That I do not know because nobody told me about it. And it was strange to me, because I think it should be in public. This is very important information.

Claim to doctors, can it? This is what they do.
- I do not even know who to claim. Perhaps athletes really are to blame, not looking. But at the same time, I think about such important information should be notified - Tuktamysheva said.

As was posted in the other thread:

Perhaps not making the Euro team is a blessing in disguise.

 

[skatfan]

Thanks Silvia, hard to keep up!

 

[Vash01]

No, that quite a few athletes in different disciplines tested positive for this substance suggests that it was systemic and those who had been taking it thought for some reason that they could continue to do so without getting caught. It doesn't look pretty. As has been said, it's creating the impression that at this point the Russian sports establishment is throwing random stuff at the wall to see what sticks: Sabotage! Lab mistakes! Lie detector tests! I didn't know what the doctor gave me! I took it last year and it stayed in my body! Didn't read my e-mails!

All of those (okay, the lie detector one gets points for creativity...) are fairly typical excuses dopers have used in the past. The Russians apparently decided to use them all at once! Which is why you see it getting ridiculed in many places and it doesn't come across as particularly credible. It creates the perception of desperate flailing to find some loophole to get their athletes off the hook, or at least to reduce their bans.

Not All athletes that tested positive were Russians. However, if the drug was manufactured in eastern Europe, and was commonly used in that part of the world for years, it makes sense that most athletes that failed the drug test came from that part of the world.

If their authorities/feds are trying to find all possible causes to identify the problem, they are looking at all possible possibilities, as they should. I don't know if it's wise to announce what they are looking at. Some may have just reacted instantaneously, as I suspect Soloviev probably did. The fed may be grasping at straws right now, not knowing what the exact problem(s) is/are. I would have preferred to do the problem solving behind closed doors, if I were in their shoes, and announced only after coming to some concrete conclusions. IMO there is a need for a full investigation by WADA, but using a neutral team.

IMO what really needs to be looked at is - and this has been posted multiple times on fsu by different posters-

More information is needed on how long the drug stays in the bodies. Is 3 months a long enough time to warn the athletes? If an athlete is warned on 9/30/15, the earliest he/she can stop the drug would be 10/1/15, and in most cases a few days would have elapsed before the athlete would realize what was changing and what actions he/she needs to take, then taking the actions. Can he/she get rid of the traces in 12 weeks by not taking the drug? Has it been proven by scientific studies?

How sensitive is the measuring instrument? Can it measure e.g. 1 ppb in the body? I am just throwing out numbers here. What is the cut off to say an athlete is clear or not? Is that limit too aggressive? If someone had never taken that drug, naturally the reading would be zero, but what about those who took it but stopped taking it only after the change in rules? May be traces would remain. Are those trace concentrations enough to disqualify the athlete? Did WADA do all the homework before announcing that the drug was illegal?

All the facts need to come out before you start accusing athletes and/or their feds of cheating. It is not to say that none of them have taken PED. Some could have, but from such a large number it is possible that at least some are telling the truth. The innocents need to be separated from the culprits before destroying their careers.

It appears that at least some of them had stopped taking it prior to Jan. 1st 2016, and yet they failed the test. I can see that on a smaller scale one would suspect sabotage, but since the number is large, something else seems to be at work.

The drug itself- (again repeating what's been posted)- was it really performance enhancing? The reason given by WADA (or may be one of the reasons) was that a large number of athletes were using it. Deciding that a drug gives them an advantage over others simply based on the number of athletes using it makes no sense to me. If I were investigating, I would look at all the chemistry and medicine involved.

I hope that there will be a full investigation based on facts and scientific methods. Something does not seem right about this 'epidemic'.

(Playing Devil's Advocate) what if WADA targeted athletes in a certain part of the world, and decided to label a popular drug in that part of the world as PED? All big organizations have politics, so I am not ruling out that possibility, though I hope that is not the case, and I hope that their (WADA's) intent was good but probably it was not executed in the best way.

 

[Susan M]

It's a possibility but not necessarily always true. Another possibility is that there really are many athletes cheating.

There is too much material and I have only read some of them, but what time did they announce that the drug will be moved to the banned list? If I know a drug is to be added to the banned list in 3 months, I will probably stop taking it right away in case there are traces to be found in my samples in 3 months and 1 week.

Bobrova said she learned in September, which is when she says she stopped knowingly taking it. I think September is also when the Russian doping org sent the notice to athletes. Maybe Tukt needs to check her spam filters.

While any athlete competing at a level subject to testing has primary responsibility for keeping up with the rules and following them, I also agree that the national federations and anyone coaching athletes competing at this level ought to make a point to make sure their athletes know about these rules and any recent changes. I mean, even if they know RUSADA already sent out a notice, it would surely do no harm if the athlete also got a notice from the federation and also heard about it from their coaches, particularly when it involved a product used as routinely as Vitamin C (according to Plushenko).

One of the things that saddens me in this thread is the realization that Russian press is still manipulated to feed people only the stories (or portions thereof) they want people to know and to put their own self-serving twist on them, regardless how ridiculous they sound to everyone else. Even sadder, is the number of people who seem to have swallowed this nonsense hook, line and sinker. Ah, yes, it is all a grand conspiracy by Western-controlled WADA. They fact that all these athletes continued to use a prohibited substance after it was banned and are now getting caught somehow doesn't matter and should be excused because this drug wasn't widely used in most of the rest of the world? All illegal drugs and techniques begin somewhere. If WADA thinks a product should be banned, it makes no sense to wait a few years until it is used by more countries before they ban it. And if, as some are now pretending, this product doesn't really do much good, then why were so many athletes taking it in the first place and why did they continue to take it even after it was added to the prohibited list?

 

[Sylvia]

I think September is also when the Russian org sent the notice to athletes.

We don't know what RUSADA was able to do besides publish on their website (on September 30, 2015) the notice of meldonium/Mildronate being banned by WADA starting on Jan. 1st. How many Russian athletes (or athletes in general) would bother to check the website for such updates?

According to this article I posted yesterday in the B/S thread: http://tass.ru/en/sport/861381

Restrictions imposed by the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) on the Russian anti-doping body RUSADA late last year have affected RUSADA’s preventive work with national sports federations to exclude meldonium from use, RUSADA acting Head Anna Antselovich told TASS on Thursday.
RUSADA started to carry out active work from early October last year to warn about the imminent ban on the use of meldonium. However, the Russian anti-doping agency was compelled to stop this work from mid-November after receiving a WADA notice on the suspension of its activity, Antselovich said.
"The restrictions imposed by the World Anti-Doping Agency on RUSADA in November-December last year could not but have its negative effect on our preventive work with sports federations to warn them about the imminent ban on meldonium (mildronate)," Antselovich said.

What did the Russian FS federation do to get the word out to their athletes, coaches & trainers? Why did Tuktamysheva have to learn this from her skater friends and claim that she was not notified officially?

 

[AxelAnnie]

We don't know what RUSADA was able to do besides publish on their website (on September 30, 2015) the notice of meldonium/Mildronate being banned by WADA starting on Jan. 1st. How many Russian athletes (or athletes in general) would bother to check the website for such updates?

UM----if you are an elite athlete you check the website for alerts. If you are a coach you check the website for alerts. Doping (and avoiding getting caught with the wrong stuff in your system) is not a new issue, and one which I would assume all athletes and their coaches and doctors are all aware.

In the Equestrienne world...there are all kinds of banned substances, and ways to get around them, and then ways that they can find out you were trying to get around them. People, coaches, vets, riders, keep themselves informed so they don't get caught, even in an error. And, it is pretty funny to see the Stewards following a horse around with a long rod and bucket at the end to wait for the horse to pee!

 

[el henry]

Well it seems that a whole lot of athletes think differently.

Article: Sharapova is Not the Only Player Paying Little Attention to Antidoping Emails

And that is their misfortune. I have zero sympathy for a grown adult athlete who can't be bothered to check something so important. That takes five minutes on a website. And so far, I see these arguments:

1. I mean, really? I didn't *see* the Stop sign? That intersection never had a Stop sign before; it wasn't there last week!

2. Only people from my town ever use that intersection. So you're clearly trying to harass people from my street by putting a Stop sign there. We're being targeted.

3. There is no evidence, none, that accidents ever occurred at that intersection. So the Stop sign is clearly unnecessary. And I can ignore it.

If none of these arguments would impress a state trooper just out of the police academy, why should they impress anyone on this issue?

 

[VarBar]

Meldonium must have some obvious performance enhancing properties since so many athletes have been taking it. So WADA was probably right to put it on the banned substance list.

 

[Sylvia]

UM----if you are an elite athlete you check the website for alerts. If you are a coach you check the website for alerts. Doping (and avoiding getting caught with the wrong stuff in your system) is not a new issue, and one which I would assume all athletes and their coaches and doctors are all aware.

Just to be clear - I'm not an elite athlete but I am NOT making excuses for or defending any elite athlete who does not take a proactive stance re. checking WADA's Prohibited List and monitoring what goes into their bodies.

USADA & U.S. sports federations like USFS appear to do a good job of keeping their athletes/coaches informed on a regular basis. But, ultimately, it is up to each individual athlete to do so.

ETA excerpt from the end of the AP article posted earlier by @missing: http://news.yahoo.com/world-anti-doping-agency-says-99-meldonium-cases-153106658.html

Within Russia, senior figures have been shifting blame between federation officials, team doctors and the athletes themselves. The head of the speedskating federation has said he suspects some people of spiking their teammates with meldonium so that they would test positive.
On Friday, Sports Minister Vitaly Mutko told the Interfax news agency that an investigation was under way into how so many athletes tested positive.
"I share collective responsibility," he said, adding that the answer was not to reduce Russia's reliance on sports medications but to develop new drugs that are not banned.
"When we aren't creating our own, we get caught using Latvian or Chinese substances," Mutko said. "We should have our own scientific research activity in high-level sport."

(Mutko's quote)

 

[Vash01]

Meldonium must have some obvious performance enhancing properties since so many athletes have been taking it. So WADA was probably right to put it on the banned substance list.

Really? A lot of guess work and jumping to conclusions here. By that logic, if a substance is being consumed by a lot of athletes, it must have performance enhancing qualities? How about vitamins and minerals for a healthy body? May be you would call those PEDALPEDAL as well.

 

[Rock2]

Am I reading Mutko's quote correctly?

He's basically saying that instead of just complying and trying to stay drug free, Russia should just develop its own performance enhancing drugs that they don't share with the world, so maybe no one would know about them and they'd never get on WADA's radar to ban them?

Geez Louise....

 

[hanca]

Am I reading Mutko's quote correctly?

He's basically saying that instead of just complying and trying to stay drug free, Russia should just develop its own performance enhancing drugs that they don't share with the world, so maybe no one would know about them and they'd never get on WADA's radar to ban them?

Geez Louise....

Well, what is not forbidden is allowed...as quickly as WADA can be banning it, someone else may be inventing more...

 

[Rock2]

Really? A lot of guess work and jumping to conclusions here. By that logic, if a substance is being consumed by a lot of athletes, it must have performance enhancing qualities? How about vitamins and minerals for a healthy body? May be you would call those OEDs as well.

I don't think it's as linear as saying 'many people are taking it so it must be bad', if that's what anyone is suggesting.

I'm quite sure that while the product is on the watch list, WADA is collecting data on its mechanism of action to understand safety profiles and performance enhancing effects.

You can actually go on their web site and read up on their process.
They have an international team of scientists and medical professionals that recommend the list of drugs that should be studied. These go on the watch list. They have stages where they review results and then in September every year they make recommendations for the banned list and under what conditions. Every September stuff gets banned and other stuff gets put on the watch list to be studied. Ongoing and regular process.

I'm quite comfortable any drug -- including meldonium -- ends up on the banned list based on data...and not just data on the product performance and safety profile but that would be the main part of it.

 

[Rock2]

Well, what is not forbidden is allowed...as quickly as WADA can be banning it, someone else may be inventing more...

Completely understood. Surprising something like this is said out loud though.