IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

[Twilight1]

Personally, if the IOC removed medals from athletes who knowingly doped from East Germany it would show a consistent stand that I would support.

And we are talking about free will to be CLEAN in sport. Trying to make this into what someone else linked to terrorism is a logical fallacy.

What deadly consequence comes from being a dope free athlete?

 

[caseyedwards]

How many drugged E. German athletes should have had their medals withdrawn? All of them.

Medals (or tests) are not like criminal trials. In a criminal trial, the explanation that you were forced to do something could (and should) gain you leniency or even a not guilty verdict.

I agree! Ioc said athletes are victims. But here ioc is punishing both country and athlete.

Wasn't Ingo Steur punished for his work with the Stasi? It seems to me that Germany had bigger things to worry about a the time, and the rules have changed quite a bit since then.

IOC could’ve done something

Personally, if the IOC removed medals from athletes who knowingly doped from East Germany it would show a consistent stand that I would support.

And we are talking about free will to be CLEAN in sport. Trying to make this into what someone else linked to terrorism is a logical fallacy.

What deadly consequence comes from being a dope free athlete?

Runner Stepanova says being a whistleblower could be very dangerous. She had to flee. Former rOC president said rodchenkov should be killed

 

[Twilight1]

Which brings me back to an above point. If the IOC systemically gives consequences on a global scale to Russia for cheating, the pay off is gone. ALL athletes and thus Russia, gets called out and there is no glory nor medals and whistelblowing becomes moot because the athletes can't compete anyway.

And murdering people for truth telling is whole other conversation regarding Russia and why it is even more important to hold them accountable.

Those kind of values and morals should NEVER be welcome on the world stage like the Olympics.

 

[MacMadame]

I guess. I can't speak for everyone else, but I've felt that doping was possible in any sport and that it was just that some sports have bigger issues than others. I can think of a few ways that skating would be helped by doping, particularly in the area of recovery and endurance.

The issue is whether the risks are worth the benefits. From my experiences figure skating vs. doing an endurance sport, I don't think they are. There are a few things that can help a little in figure skating but the consequences of getting caught make them not worth it. This is not true in endurance sports which is why some of them, such as cycling and track & field, are riddled with doping and there is a lot of turning of a blind eye because TPTB

In figure skating, most of what holds people back is injuries, overuse injuries and injuries caused by accidents. It's not a sport where you can't recover from the workout of the day before in order to work even harder the next day without artificial help. This is why you rarely hear figure skaters complain they would skate more hours if only they could recover better. Instead, what mostly limits their training hours is trying to avoid overuse injuries. (And probably also money.)

And talent and technique. There is no drug out there that will give Jason Brown a quad. It's a combination of technique and talent. If there was one, male skaters would probably take it because you need a quad to get to the top. Now if you can't land a quad in competition because of nerves maybe a beta blocker would help. Or not. Those things are iffier. So you are risking a lot for a small (or no) benefit.

So, the bottom line is: the cost isn't worth the benefit because the cost is big but the benefit is small.

The reason it's worth it in other sports is that athletes are limited by things that PEDs help with to a much larger degree. So if talent and hard work gets you to run a 6 min mile and taking PEDs gets you to run a 5 min. mile and you need to run a 5 min mile to podium in your particular event, the temptation is strong. And if you know or suspect that everyone who is beating you is only doing it because they are doping, the temptation is even stronger. That's not the situation in figure skating.

If doping and figure skating were incompatible in Russia, Bobrova and Tuktamysheva and a host of others wouldn't be taking drugs for conditions they didn't have, case in point Meldonium.

No, that is not a good example because these athletes only took meldonium when it was legal. All sports have a culture of using any legal edge you can get; that doesn't necessarily mean they all have the same attitude towards using illegal means. You need a different example if you want to prove that.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

Which brings me back to an above point. If the IOC systemically gives consequences on a global scale to Russia for cheating, the pay off is gone. ALL athletes and thus Russia, gets called out and there is no glory nor medals and whistelblowing becomes moot because the athletes can't compete anyway.

And murdering people for truth telling is whole other conversation regarding Russia and why it is even more important to hold them accountable.

Those kind of values and morals should NEVER be welcome on the world stage like the Olympics.

If the IOC systemically gives consequences on a global scale to ALL COUNTRIES for cheating, the pay off is gone. ALL athletes and thus ALL COUNTRIES, get called out and there is no glory nor medals and whistelblowing becomes moot because the athletes can't compete anyway.

Cheating is cheating is cheating. Whether it is initiated by Russia, Germany, China, US or Canada. Enough said. Thinking that Russia is the only nation with wide-spread doping problem is beyond naive. State sponsored or club sponsored... At the end of the day, it's all the same.

 

[caseyedwards]

Which brings me back to an above point. If the IOC systemically gives consequences on a global scale to Russia for cheating, the pay off is gone. ALL athletes and thus Russia, gets called out and there is no glory nor medals and whistelblowing becomes moot because the athletes can't compete anyway.

And murdering people for truth telling is whole other conversation regarding Russia and why it is even more important to hold them accountable.

Those kind of values and morals should NEVER be welcome on the world stage like the Olympics.

Ioc is saying what the former honorary president says doesn’t matter because he’s only former and honorary president! But of course ioc should order Russia to ban him for life from all sports and try to have prosecuted for death threats! And if they didn’t all Russian neutrals are banned and Russia is expelled from ioc!

 

[Willin]

@Perky Shae Lynn How is a government telling it's athletes to dope and covering up their doping for them the same as random athletes/coaches deciding individually to dope the same? One involves the government covering for large groups; the other involves individuals hiding misdeeds from the government. One is to boost the prestige and morale of the entire country (and if Rodchenkov is believed, to help manipulate public opinion before an election); the other is for personal gain of an individual. One is because a government is determined to win on home soil regardless of sport; the other is heavily correlated to individual sports where doping is rampant.

Yes, all dopers should be punished and banned from competing, and all complicit coaches and officials should be banned as well. But if you consider those situations equivalent you're kidding yourself.

And you would do well to watch what the IOC does to sports where doping is rampant in upcoming years. For the first time the IOC is considering banning an entire sport for corruption and cheating (boxing). Although it's not necessarily a doping ban, I'd expect to see the IOC get more wary of sports with doping after this whole shebang. TBH I'm surprised cycling hasn't faced consequences already.

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

@Perky Shae Lynn How is a government telling it's athletes to dope and covering up their doping for them the same as random athletes/coaches deciding individually to dope the same?

It is the same only in one sense. That doping is doping regardless of where the mandate came from. Just ask several generations of U.S. track and field stars. Cheating is not acceptable. By anyone. And that point seems to be lost on the IOC.

 

[skatingguy]

And you would do well to watch what the IOC does to sports where doping is rampant in upcoming years. For the first time the IOC is considering banning an entire sport for corruption and cheating (boxing). Although it's not necessarily a doping ban, I'd expect to see the IOC get more wary of sports with doping after this whole shebang. TBH I'm surprised cycling hasn't faced consequences already.

Some sports have taken steps to clean things up. Cycling has made big changes to their doping program and that seems to have improved the situation (though maybe the athletes have just found a better way to cheat). Weightlifting and athletics have really been making some changes as well, particularly weightlifting by banning multiple countries from the recent world championships.

 

[kwanfan1818]

This is not true in endurance sports which is why some of them, such as cycling and track & field, are riddled with doping and there is a lot of turning of a blind eye because TPTB

They were considered too big to fail. Until they weren't, at least with cycling.

 

[Twilight1]

@Perky Shae Lynn

I was using Russia in this context because they are currently impacted because if the ban on their athletes. I am actually on board with full bans on any athlete who gets caught cheating and ongoing monitoring while competitive when there is a suspicion of cheating within any sport for all athletes.

 

[Twilight1]

Waiting for Sample B- Possible OAR doping athlete

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/43103451

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor.../ioc-russia-olympics-doping-curler/349187002/

 

[NoStefaniaNo]

Waiting for Sample B- Possible OAR doping athlete

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/winter-olympics/43103451

https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor.../ioc-russia-olympics-doping-curler/349187002/

This is disappointing news. I imagine the hope of the OAR athletes walking in the closing ceremony under the Russian flag is over if the B sample is also positive.

 

[caseyedwards]

This is disappointing news. I imagine the hope of the OAR athletes walking in the closing ceremony under the Russian flag is over if the B sample is also positive.

Why should that be it? Why should they be allowed to continue in the games?

 

[Twilight1]

Not sure how I feel about this. Guess I have to wait to hear if test #2 comes back positive.

Disappointing if true. One would think that OAR athletes would be even more vigilant knowing they are under the microscope so heavily at these games.

 

[caseyedwards]

Not sure how I feel about this. Guess I have to wait to hear if test #2 comes back positive.

Disappointing if true. One would think that OAR athletes would be even more vigilant knowing they are under the microscope so heavily at these games.

B came back positive. Total ADRV situation. Sick person.

https://www.insidethegames.biz/arti...arged-with-doping-offence-at-pyeongchang-2018

Now all russians are even more suspicious to everyone.

 

[MacMadame]

This is disappointing news. I imagine the hope of the OAR athletes walking in the closing ceremony under the Russian flag is over if the B sample is also positive.

There was never any chance of that happening anyway.

Why should that be it? Why should they be allowed to continue in the games?

They met the requirements put forth by the IOC. There was no requirement that every athlete pass every drug test or they all get kicked out. Therefore, they have the right to continue.

 

[millyskate]

It appears like the most bizarre, unnecessary and sad doping case ever. With all the coverage it's pretty much impossible that the athlete was unaware Meldonium is on the banned list.
But could someone more familiar with Curling say if there would be any incentive to seek the help performance-enhancing products? Whilst I get that it can be fairly physical, it seems like it's a sport more focused on skill, and the endurance required would be reasonably attainable for someone athletic doing the required amount of training.

 

[Vagabond]

It appears like the most bizarre, unnecessary and sad doping case ever. With all the coverage it's pretty much impossible that the athlete was unaware Meldonium is on the banned list.
But could someone more familiar with Curling say if there would be any incentive to seek the help performance-enhancing products? Whilst I get that it can be fairly physical, it seems like it's a sport more focused on skill, and the endurance required would be reasonably attainable for someone athletic doing the required amount of training.

Russian Doping Case Rocks Curling

The drug is thought to enhance endurance and would possibly play a role in curling by increasing the stamina of athletes, who must be accurate with their shots, sometimes down to the centimeter.

In clinical trials, however, meldonium has been found to be ineffective in controlling hubris.

(ETA: I fixed the link to the article in The New York Times.)

 

[Rafter]

B came back positive. Total ADRV situation. Sick person.

https://www.insidethegames.biz/arti...arged-with-doping-offence-at-pyeongchang-2018

Now all russians are even more suspicious to everyone.

Wow what a stupid thing to do. And a CURLER??

 

[kwanfan1818]

It was The Curling News that headlined the story of the McLaren Report while most others were yawning.

 

[barbarafan]

Not sure how I feel about this. Guess I have to wait to hear if test #2 comes back positive.

Disappointing if true. One would think that OAR athletes would be even more vigilant knowing they are under the microscope so heavily at these games.

What i read was that it was Meldonium which was found...which has nothing to do with the whole state sponsored Sochi set up. Doping is Doping but did they ever determine factually how long it stays in your system? It was very well spread out as around the same time of all the hoopla the world 18and under Russian team had arrived at city where the championships were held and shortly thereafter the 17 and unders were sent there and took their place. It was ASSUMED that it was drug related (meldonium)and it was whole team...unless they did something like trash a hotel .

 

[NoStefaniaNo]

There was never any chance of that happening anyway.

The IOC was set to make a decision on this later this week. From an article on Inside the Games

Russian athletes are participating at the Winter Olympic Games as part of a neutral OAR team as part of a sanction for the "systemic manipulation" of the anti-doping system at Sochi 2014.​

This suspension could be lifted before the Closing Ceremony if they are ruled to have acted within the "letter and spirit" of the eligibility procedures.

Another requirement was to pay a $15 million (£11 million/€13 million) fine to fund the anti-doping effort.

This has not yet happened and the IOC and OAR delegation head Stanislav Pozdnyakov have each indicated that it must be paid by the Closing Ceremony for there to be any chance of the suspension being lifted there.

Russian Deputy Prime Minister Vitaly Mutko, the former Sports Minister banned from the Olympics Games for life for his alleged complicity in the scandal, claimed in December that they would only pay the fine if the IOC agree to issue no further punishment against the country,

The conduct of athletes during the Games is also being considered.

There have not been any major incidents causing problems here except for the doping violation.

The repeated claims of Russian officials, though, including Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov that the United States and other parts of the Anglo-Saxon world is masterminding the scandal for political reasons is not helping.

There are also fears that bodies linked to Russia may have been responsible for a cyber-attack shortly before the Opening Ceremony here, although this has not been officially confirmed.

You can read more about it here: https://www.insidethegames.biz/arti...lion-fine-key-to-having-ioc-suspension-lifted

 

[Twilight1]

What i read was that it was Meldonium which was found...which has nothing to do with the whole state sponsored Sochi set up. Doping is Doping but did they ever determine factually how long it stays in your system? It was very well spread out as around the same time of all the hoopla the world 18and under Russian team had arrived at city where the championships were held and shortly thereafter the 17 and unders were sent there and took their place. It was ASSUMED that it was drug related (meldonium)and it was whole team...unless they did something like trash a hotel .

Half life is about 4-6 hours but one can test positive for monthe after.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-...s-to-leave-body-says-drug-maker-idUSKCN0WN1FS

And for a more thorough "validated resource," 65-117 days post use.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0731708516314133

 

[Twilight1]

So based on the above, the Russian curler (if sample B also tests positive) had to have used before these Olympics. Knowing it was a banned substance (though he is saying someone spiked his drink)

Editted to add-
According to this article, the Russian curler tested positive in both samples.
http://nationalpost.com/sports/olym...dy-not-surprised-to-see-russian-caught-doping

 

[Perky Shae Lynn]

This is a bizarre development. Truly. Who would be stupid enough to take a banned drug (regardless of why it's banned) knowing that they will be, with 100% certainty, tested???

 

[Willin]

My question is who would be spiking his drink with Meldonium? I heard he was claiming sabotage, but sabotage via spiking your drink? That's a bit far fetched... (But stranger things have happened)

 

[Twilight1]

My question is who would be spiking his drink with Meldonium? I heard he was claiming sabotage, but sabotage via spiking your drink? That's a bit far fetched... (But stranger things have happened)

Norway spiked his drink, they wanted more medals... and they are the ones that benefit if the bronze gets stripped.

 

[Vagabond]

This is a bizarre development. Truly. Who would be stupid enough to take a banned drug (regardless of why it's banned) knowing that they will be, with 100% certainty, tested???

I think we both know the answer to that question.

 

[Skittl1321]

If I was an "OAR" athlete, I'd be really pissed about this. They aren't competing under their own flag due to wide spread, state sponsored doping scandal. And one of the athletes was dumb enough to show up doping. It puts all the rest of them in question.