IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

[kwanfan1818]

Your logic/analysis makes assumptions just like many others are making. For example, the assumption that the ROC must have agreed to something so it must be their fault. The IOC is not responsible for anything, and the IOC is always right.

No, my assumption is that the IOC, which owns the Olympics, gets to make its own rules and criteria. In the case of Pyeongchang, it gave an option to Russia, and Russia accepted it in order to participate.

This neither makes the IOC right nor not right. It is, however, their right to make whatever rules it wants within the bounds of its charter and the laws of at least the country in which it is an organization. And it was well within the rights of Russia to accept or not accept those conditions.

we need is the whole story, and not just a part of it. We need the truth to stop all these speculations. The IOC, as a governing body has some responsibilities, and unless they are transparent, I don't believe there is fairness here.

You're allowed to need whatever you want, believe whatever you want, and feel whatever you want, and think whatever you want about the responsibilities of the IOC as a governing body, but that doesn't make any of that the responsibility of the IOC as a governing body. Those are legal questions. If you think they've behaved unethically, then it's up to you to do what you need to in response to the Olympic movement.

 

[Twilight1]

that’s nice to hear. So why on this occasion you are happy that the blame is not on the cheaters, but on random skaters of the same nationality? Does it help you feel better if your nationality get some medals, even if it is gained dishonestly, by weakening their direct competitors by any means, no matter how dishonest the means are? Do you think that if Russians cheated in Sochi, it gives other nationalities the rights to cheat this time, believing that no one can say a word because Russians are the cheaters, not you? Do you think it is fair if innocent athletes have been denied their right to compete? You seem to be very happy ro accept the situation, even though athletes who never took drugs are not allowed to compete. One wonders if it is athletes from your country who have something to gain.

Did you read my previous posts about this issue? It was proven that the state purposefully cheated and they faced penalties for it. The penalties have filtered to this event.

It wouldn't have filtered to this event if Russia weren't proven to have cheated.

So your point is moot because if Canada did the same thing, I would feel the exact same way. I would be gutted if Poje (2nd ranked Canadian ice dancer) and Seguin (2nd ranked pairs team) were barred from these Oly's, but I would expect repercussions for unethical and despicable behaviour.

I would again blame the people who cheated. But any issues will be under the microscope and many other competitiors would be impacted because it is a collective issue. State sponsored means more than 1.

Not sure where you are not connecting the dots here.

Honesty, integrity and accountability.

Editted to add - many choices we make ripple to those around us. Poor choices can impact our friends, family, neighbours, coworkers. Ideal world, poor choice just impacts the person who errs. But very often, there is a ripple effect that can have lasting consequences on people not involved. Or those not originally involved are put under the microscope and any indiscretion is amplified and held against them to a greater and more grievious extent.

 

[hanca]

Did you read my previous posts about this issue? It was proven that the state purposefully cheated and they faced penalties for it. The penalties have filtered to this event.

It wouldn't have filtered to this event if Russia weren't proven to have cheated.

So your point is moot because if Canada did the same thing, I would feel the exact same way. I would be gutted if Poje (2nd ranked Canadian ice dancer) and Seguin (2nd ranked pairs team) were barred from these Oly's, but I would expect repercussions for unethical and despicable behaviour.

I would again blame the people who cheated. But any issues will be under the microscope and many other competitiors would be impacted because it is a collective issue. State sponsored means more than 1.

Not sure where you are not connecting the dots here.

Honesty, integrity and accountability.

Editted to add - many choices we make ripple to those around us. Poor choices can impact our friends, family, neighbours, coworkers. Ideal world, poor choice just impacts the person who errs. But very often, there is a ripple effect that can have lasting consequences on people not involved. Or those not originally involved are put under the microscope and any indiscretion is amplified and held against them to a greater and more grievious extent.

what exactly are you saying? If your brother or sister commits crime, you are happy to go to prison because you are from the same family? No matter that you are innocent, you will think it is right to be punished on their behalf? How far does that stretch? If a person from the same nationality commits a crime, are you happy to go to prison for them too? After all, you are the same nationality, would you consider yourself guilty by association just based on your nationality (even if you don’t know the person who committed the crime personally) and you have done nothing wrong? You seem to be frustrated that I am not connecting the dots, but to me it seems that it is you who is not connecting the dots!

 

[hanca]

Did you read my previous posts about this issue? It was proven that the state purposefully cheated and they faced penalties for it. The penalties have filtered to this event.

It wouldn't have filtered to this event if Russia weren't proven to have cheated.

So your point is moot because if Canada did the same thing, I would feel the exact same way. I would be gutted if Poje (2nd ranked Canadian ice dancer) and Seguin (2nd ranked pairs team) were barred from these Oly's, but I would expect repercussions for unethical and despicable behaviour.

I would again blame the people who cheated. But any issues will be under the microscope and many other competitiors would be impacted because it is a collective issue. State sponsored means more than 1.

Not sure where you are not connecting the dots here.

Honesty, integrity and accountability.

Editted to add - many choices we make ripple to those around us. Poor choices can impact our friends, family, neighbours, coworkers. Ideal world, poor choice just impacts the person who errs. But very often, there is a ripple effect that can have lasting consequences on people not involved. Or those not originally involved are put under the microscope and any indiscretion is amplified and held against them to a greater and more grievious extent.

If someone killed your mother, do you think killing his sister would make it right? It may make you feel better, but the sister has not done anything wrong. Responding to something wrong by doing something wrong does not make it miraculously right. It would just prove you are as bad as the person who did something wrong in the first place. So yes, RUSSIA HAS CHEATED. That’s still not a reason for punishing athletes who HAVE NEVER CHEATED. I am not sure why you can’t get it. Do you think that if someone else cheats, it gives you automatically free pass to cheat too?

 

[Twilight1]

Hanca- we are talking about cheating not murder. So your attempt at making it so is false equivalency and is ridiculous.

And not sure where I am saying cheating is okay.

Pretty clear I hold people accountable for cheating and am against it. If you cheat, I won't cheat to get back at you. That is juvenile and against my morals and values.

I disagreed with you. Explained why and you disagree. You aren't going to change my mind because unless you are in the know of something I don't... your opinion is no more right than my own.

All the power to you. But I vehemently disagree with your stance.

 

[skatingguy]

If someone killed your mother, do you think killing his sister would make it right? It may make you feel better, but the sister has not done anything wrong. Responding to something wrong by doing something wrong does not make it miraculously right. It would just prove you are as bad as the person who did something wrong in the first place. So yes, RUSSIA HAS CHEATED. That’s still not a reason for punishing athletes who HAVE NEVER CHEATED. I am not sure why you can’t get it. Do you think that if someone else cheats, it gives you automatically free pass to cheat too?

I would say this is more like a game of clue. We know that there was a murder and we have a large pool of suspects, who all happen to live in the same house. We don't know who committed the crime, where it was one person, or many people working together. The suspects won't admit to who did it, and even contend that no crime was committed to begin with. We have the forensic evidence, so we know there was a murder and all the suspects won't cooperate. What do we do?

 

[ballettmaus]

Could it be possible that Stolbova and Bukin (involuntarily) covered for someone but didn't know they were covering for them?

 

[caseyedwards]

Could it be possible that Stolbova and Bukin (involuntarily) covered for someone but didn't know they were covering for them?

It’s possible but wouldn’t figure skaters be most likely to cover up for other figure skaters? Not one figure skater was sanctioned by Oswald or IOC. I know kostners boyfriend was a racewalker so then you have to get into the dating lives of stolbova and Bukin. I don’t know who they have been involved with. I’m sure if a significant other of theirs was a doper it’d be known by now!

 

[PRlady]

The procedures the IOC listed as part of their requirements for receiving invitations are not part of the ISU's anti doping requirements. They were put into place as a response to Russia's state-sponsored cheating scheme, and the ROC agreed to them as necessarily applying to any athletes who would be invited.

Since Stolbova and Bukin are still invited to major ISU events, it stands to reason that any violations by Stolbova and Bukin violated the IOC's extra protocols, not doping violations which would have triggered an ISU ban as well.

Therefore, these two athletes are probably in violation of extra protocols and safeguards put into place because their country cheated. They probably had no intention of cheating but were caught up in an unusual situation which would not have occurred if their country hadn't behaved outrageously.

So, we can't assume that these two athletes did "nothing" nor that they still don't know what it was. It's tragic that they are missing the Olys for violating special requirements that aren't usually in place, but the reason for those requirements is their country's behavior.

So you can yell all you want that these athletes did nothing, but there's no reason for the IOC to pick these two and not other skaters if no procedures were violated. I do agree that the reasons should be made public IF the skaters themselves want that. And I don't think the primary fault is with the IOC although they've made some dumb moves. The primary fault is Russia's.

 

[Lovemyvike]

The procedures the IOC listed as part of their requirements for receiving invitations are not part of the ISU's anti doping requirements. They were put into place as a response to Russia's state-sponsored cheating scheme, and the ROC agreed to them as necessarily applying to any athletes who would be invited.

Since Stolbova and Bukin are still invited to major ISU events, it stands to reason that any violations by Stolbova and Bukin violated the IOC's extra protocols, not doping violations which would have triggered an ISU ban as well.

Therefore, these two athletes are probably in violation of extra protocols and safeguards put into place because their country cheated. They probably had no intention of cheating but were caught up in an unusual situation which would not have occurred if their country hadn't behaved outrageously.

So, we can't assume that these two athletes did "nothing" nor that they still don't know what it was. It's tragic that they are missing the Olys for violating special requirements that aren't usually in place, but the reason for those requirements is their country's behavior.

So you can yell all you want that these athletes did nothing, but there's no reason for the IOC to pick these two and not other skaters if no procedures were violated. I do agree that the reasons should be made public IF the skaters themselves want that. And I don't think the primary fault is with the IOC although they've made some dumb moves. The primary fault is Russia's.

Thank you. This really sounds like the most realistic scenario. I still hate it for Stolbova and Bukin, but unfortunately this will probably hang over Russian athletes for a long time.

 

[lala]

Hanca- we are talking about cheating not murder. So your attempt at making it so is false equivalency and is ridiculous.

And not sure where I am saying cheating is okay.

Pretty clear I hold people accountable for cheating and am against it. If you cheat, I won't cheat to get back at you. That is juvenile and against my morals and values.

I disagreed with you. Explained why and you disagree. You aren't going to change my mind because unless you are in the know of something I don't... your opinion is no more right than my own.

All the power to you. But I vehemently disagree with your stance.

You don't understand! I just want the reason!

 

[caseyedwards]

The procedures the IOC listed as part of their requirements for receiving invitations are not part of the ISU's anti doping requirements. They were put into place as a response to Russia's state-sponsored cheating scheme, and the ROC agreed to them as necessarily applying to any athletes who would be invited.

Since Stolbova and Bukin are still invited to major ISU events, it stands to reason that any violations by Stolbova and Bukin violated the IOC's extra protocols, not doping violations which would have triggered an ISU ban as well.

Therefore, these two athletes are probably in violation of extra protocols and safeguards put into place because their country cheated. They probably had no intention of cheating but were caught up in an unusual situation which would not have occurred if their country hadn't behaved outrageously.

So, we can't assume that these two athletes did "nothing" nor that they still don't know what it was. It's tragic that they are missing the Olys for violating special requirements that aren't usually in place, but the reason for those requirements is their country's behavior.

So you can yell all you want that these athletes did nothing, but there's no reason for the IOC to pick these two and not other skaters if no procedures were violated. I do agree that the reasons should be made public IF the skaters themselves want that. And I don't think the primary fault is with the IOC although they've made some dumb moves. The primary fault is Russia's.

The last criteria of the invitation panel is “intelligence” sent to wada anti-doping website. They could have been accused of things by a credible person and maybe they submitted some evidence as well but it’s possible that there was actually no wrongdoing! So it is possible there are no violations of the Extra protocols by them. The CAS decision does say broadly speaking they can be assumed to have been a participant in or beneficiary of the state sponsored doping system but it’s not clear. Plus based on what has happened to other athletes if they tell the truth they can get great special treatment from IOC! So why wouldn’t Bukin tell the truth?

 

[Deleted member 40371]

The last criteria of the invitation panel is “intelligence” sent to wada anti-doping website. They could have been accused of things by a credible person and maybe they submitted some evidence as well but it’s possible that there was actually no wrongdoing! So it is possible there are no violations of the Extra protocols by them. The CAS decision does say broadly speaking they can be assumed to have been a participant in or beneficiary of the state sponsored doping system but it’s not clear. Plus based on what has happened to other athletes if they tell the truth they can get great special treatment from IOC! So why wouldn’t Bukin tell the truth?

What truth would that be ? I read that Bukin said that he stopped watching the opening ceremony when Bach starting speaking...

 

[caseyedwards]

What truth would that be ? I read that Bukin said that he stopped watching the opening ceremony when Bach starting speaking...

If there was a doping truth. There may not be! But if there was and he was honest about it- then open door to him!

 

[skatingguy]

What truth would that be ? I read that Bukin said that he stopped watching the opening ceremony when Bach starting speaking...

Didn't everyone?

 

[misskarne]

Pretty clear I hold people accountable for cheating and am against it.

But you're trying to hold people "accountable" who were not involved. By all means, hold the people who were involved accountable. I will never disagree with that concept. But now those being punished are being punished because they happen to be the same nationality as the cheaters. And that's wrong. And I can't see how you can't see that.

As to the point about the "extra procedures" - again, Stolbova and Bukin were confused and surprised and didn't understand why they'd been uninvited. Which suggests to me that they followed the procedures to the best of their knowledge and ability. Unless you're calling them liars.

 

[hanca]

I would say this is more like a game of clue. We know that there was a murder and we have a large pool of suspects, who all happen to live in the same house. We don't know who committed the crime, where it was one person, or many people working together. The suspects won't admit to who did it, and even contend that no crime was committed to begin with. We have the forensic evidence, so we know there was a murder and all the suspects won't cooperate. What do we do?

Well, you might have suspicions about all of them if you (as an incompetent investigator) can’t figure out who did it, but if you tried to make them all responsible for the crime without any proof, you may find out that they may be found NOT GUILTY at court. So it may be a good idea to gather the evidence linking it to whoever did it and charge the guilty ones, rather than claiming that all of them are responsible because they live in the same house.
In case of the sportsmen, they can easily gather evidence about doping.

 

[skatingguy]

Well, you might have suspicions about all of them if you (as an incompetent investigator) can’t figure out who did it, but if you tried to make them all responsible for the crime without any proof, you may find out that they may be found NOT GUILTY at court. So it may be a good idea to gather the evidence linking it to whoever did it and charge the guilty ones, rather than claiming that all of them are responsible because they live in the same house.

I'm sorry if you didn't like my expansion on your example, but I don't see why it's necessary to turn to personal insults about my level of intelligence.

In case of the sportsmen, they can easily gather evidence about doping.

Unless people take steps to ensure that the athletes avoid testing positive, which is what the Russians did. It has been reported that this doping program involved hundred of athletes but we don't know who, and we don't know how to separate the innocent from the guilty.

 

[hanca]

I'm sorry if you didn't like my expansion on your example, but I don't see why it's necessary to turn to personal insults about my level of intelligence.


Unless people take steps to ensure that the athletes avoid testing positive, which is what the Russians did. It has been reported that this doping program involved hundred of athletes but we don't know who, and we don't know how to separate the innocent from the guilty.

I did not insult your intelligence. In fact, the word intelligence is not mentioned at all in my post. You can have extremely clever person who will still be an incompetent investigator. And I am sorry if you disagree, but the investigation of Russian cheating have not been done very competently. Four years later and they still have trouble figuring out who is guilty? The IOC’s actions have not been very competent either. So why are you getting annoyed that I am insulting you? As far as I am aware, you don’t work for IOC and you haven’t investigated Russian cheating.

 

[skatingguy]

I did not insult your intelligence. In fact, the word intelligence is not mentioned at all in my post. You can have extremely clever person who will still be an incompetent investigator. And I am sorry if you disagree, but the investigation of Russian cheating have not been done very competently. Four years later and they still have trouble figuring out who is guilty? The IOC’s actions have not been very competent either. So why are you getting annoyed that I am insulting you? As far as I am aware, you don’t work for IOC and you haven’t investigated Russian cheating.

Is was the use of the word 'you'. I thought your comments were being directed at me personally.

The investigation has been going for about two years now, but evidence regarding the individual athletes has only started to come together in the past few months. I would agree that the IOC has handled the Russian's poorly. I wonder, do you think the IOC should have allowed the Russians to compete and then have the results changed after as the evidence against the athletes involved in the doping is firmed up? I'm not sure that's fair to everyone else.

 

[lala]

https://www.sports.ru/figure-skating/1060059336.htm
Trainers of Stepanova and Bukin on the non-admission of the duet before the Games-2018: "We are tired of all this humiliation and injustice"

Irina Zhuk and Alexander Svinin, coaches of the Russian dance duo Alexander Stepanova - Ivan Bukin, commented on the decision of the Sports Arbitration Court (CAS) to reject the partner's appeal for admission to Pyeongchang-2018.

They very much hoped that justice would prevail, we would be invited to the Olympics, especially since the court made a fair decision about our other athletes, returned the medals won in Sochi. We even planned to fly out to Korea on Wednesday evening, if everything went well.

But, unfortunately, CAS did not live up to our expectations, we stay at home. Of course, we are tired of all this humiliation and injustice. We are tired of repeating that figure skating and doping are incompatible, and our Vanya Bukin never used any illegal drugs. His condition is difficult to describe in words.

I hope that the time will come and will apologize to the guys. We will not stop, we will submit further to the courts, defend the honest, clean name of our athlete, "said the trainers of the skaters.

 

[skatingguy]

We are tired of repeating that figure skating and doping are incompatible,

I sympathize with their situation, but this part of their statement bothers me. Doping might not be common in figure skating, but that doesn't mean that a skater couldn't benefit from a doping program.

 

[lala]

I sympathize with their situation, but this part of their statement bothers me. Doping might not be common in figure skating, but that doesn't mean that a skater couldn't benefit from a doping program.

Probably they have this opinion thus they don't use it.
But I remember when started the doping scandal almost every people thought the FS and the doping are incopatible. But later the opinion has changed. Most of those posters who changed their opinion were American and Canadian
( and I'm sure in Korea almost every people changed their opinion) . Everyone has reasons to change it.

 

[skatingguy]

Probably they have this opinion thus they don't use it.
But I remember when started the doping scandal almost every people thought the FS and the doping are incopatible. But later the opinion has changed. Most of those posters who changed their opinion were American and Canadian
( and I'm sure in Korea almost every people changed their opinion) . Everyone has reasons to change it.

I guess. I can't speak for everyone else, but I've felt that doping was possible in any sport and that it was just that some sports have bigger issues than others. I can think of a few ways that skating would be helped by doping, particularly in the area of recovery and endurance.

 

[Bigbird]

If doping and figure skating were incompatible in Russia, Bobrova and Tuktamysheva and a host of others wouldn't be taking drugs for conditions they didn't have, case in point Meldonium. The IOC is not obligated to make the matters concerning a legal matter public to all and sundry, least of all fans. This shroud of secrecy protects them as well as the athlete. I'll repeat this a thousand times to make my point when Bobrova failed her doping test, nobody defended her innocence but rather Zhulin commented that this could not have happened at a worse possible time. Who says that? She also chose to not have her B sample tested. If she were completely innocent why didn't she do so? Politics? This speaks to an ATTITUDE within certain schools in Russia, that is absolutely devoid of good sportsmanship and fair play. Therefore, my guess is there is a lot more to this story that we do not know and we will never know, but to imagine that an organization like the IOC would ban two talented athletes for no reason, and to believe that they need to disclose to the world the reasons for doing same are both totally ludicrous.

 

[Twilight1]

This investigation involves slippery fish and why I believe no retribution would be wrong.

No country has such a proven track record of cheating and doping as Russia.

No country in the world has made such a systemic issue of cheating like Russia.

Collateral damage sucks but again, any issue no matter how minor, is under the microscope.

Which brings me back to my original point. Deny and lie seems to be the ongoing response for this investigation from Russia.

Even with their hands in the cookie jar, they are still lying and denying.

Frankly, it is disgusting.

That some want to say it because other countries will benefit makes this pathetic and petty.

No it is simple. Stop cheating. Stop lying and denying about the cheating.

Stop playing like the country is a victim and being unfairly targetted.

If it wasn't systemically rooted, and proven to be rooted, Stolbova and Bukin wouldn't be in the mess they are in.

They are there because of Russia. Just Russia.

 

[lala]

This investigation involves slippery fish and why I believe no retribution would be wrong.

No country has such a proven track record of cheating and doping as Russia.

No country in the world has made such a systemic issue of cheating like Russia.

Collateral damage sucks but again, any issue no matter how minor, is under the microscope.

Which brings me back to my original point. Deny and lie seems to be the ongoing response for this investigation from Russia.

Even with their hands in the cookie jar, they are still lying and denying.

Frankly, it is disgusting.

That some want to say it because other countries will benefit makes this pathetic and petty.

No it is simple. Stop cheating. Stop lying and denying about the cheating.

Stop playing like the country is a victim and being unfairly targetted.

If it wasn't systemically rooted, and proven to be rooted, Stolbova and Bukin wouldn't be in the mess they are in.

They are there because of Russia. Just Russia.

B
O
R
I
N
G
!

In this way the terrorism is legal. For eaxmple the terroroists can kill American innocent people because they were born to American. And the American army did some awful things somewhere.

 

[allezfred]

Don't think it is helpful or accurate to be comparing this situation with murder or terrorism.

However, it is troubling that some of you on the other side of the argument seem not to be perturbed by the lack of transparency behind the decisions that have been taken.

 

[BlueRidge]

The procedures the IOC listed as part of their requirements for receiving invitations are not part of the ISU's anti doping requirements. They were put into place as a response to Russia's state-sponsored cheating scheme, and the ROC agreed to them as necessarily applying to any athletes who would be invited.

Since Stolbova and Bukin are still invited to major ISU events, it stands to reason that any violations by Stolbova and Bukin violated the IOC's extra protocols, not doping violations which would have triggered an ISU ban as well.

Therefore, these two athletes are probably in violation of extra protocols and safeguards put into place because their country cheated. They probably had no intention of cheating but were caught up in an unusual situation which would not have occurred if their country hadn't behaved outrageously.

So, we can't assume that these two athletes did "nothing" nor that they still don't know what it was. It's tragic that they are missing the Olys for violating special requirements that aren't usually in place, but the reason for those requirements is their country's behavior.

So you can yell all you want that these athletes did nothing, but there's no reason for the IOC to pick these two and not other skaters if no procedures were violated. I do agree that the reasons should be made public IF the skaters themselves want that. And I don't think the primary fault is with the IOC although they've made some dumb moves. The primary fault is Russia's.

This is all very well explained. One might think you did communications for a living.

The primary fault actually is the specific sports institutions and those individuals in them who engaged in illegal doping activity. One of those institutions is the Russian Olympic Committee. Its been banned from the 2018 Olympics yet it is still the entity which the IOC is dealing with in regards to any athlete from Russia's participation. Further the IOC itself is the institution which held the 2014 games and failed to detect and stop a systematic doping operation.

So basically the athletes caught up in this are pawns in the hands of a banned organization and a failed organization.

People who are desperately trying to explain the IOC's way out of this can do so. As far as I'm concerned, these games are as utterly illegitimate as anything held under such a scenario would of course be.

I don't suggest that everyone not play along and enjoy it as usual.

I just think it is a revolting spectacle of nationalism that in and of itself lead to the doping because of the incentives for countries to maximize their prestige with medals that are credited to countries rather than individual human beings and as such politics and corruption are endemic, and essentially the values of the "modern Olympic movement."

 

[skatingguy]

Don't think it is helpful or accurate to be comparing this situation with murder or terrorism.

However, it is troubling that some of you on the other side of the argument seem not to be perturbed by the lack of transparency behind the decisions that have been taken.

Lack of transparency is always concerning. I wish the IOC would be more up front about the reasons why certain athletes were invited while others were not. My best understanding of the situation is that privacy concerns prevent such a release. I really wish the whole thing could be sped up so that we could see a resolution to this situation and know which athletes were not involved so that everyone could feel confident about their inclusion in the Olympics, and any other upcoming events.