IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

[allezfred]

My point is that there must be something they did, not saying they doped, but didn’t totally comply with the rules and they must suspect what it is. That + being Russian= not invited. Just that + being Japanese = invited because there is not all that systemic doping scheme acknowledge in Japan.

My point : it’s not just random. It’s just WE don’t know the procedure they miss or whatever they f**k they did to put them in that situation. I am not saying they doped. But they didn’t check all the good marks so to skate in the Ooooo. It may be something silly like accidentally hunging off the phone to a anti-doping agent while sneezing... but there IS something. Why them, why not some other skaters?

For justice to be justice it has to be transparent. When even the skaters don’t seem to know why they are being barred that is a problem.

 

[LarrySK8]

For Stolbova and Bukin - the issue may be non-compliance with testing logistics, not actual doping. Non-compliance = "can't be cleared" so no berth.

 

[hanca]

My point is that there must be something they did, not saying they doped, but didn’t totally comply with the rules and they must suspect what it is. That + being Russian= not invited. Just that + being Japanese = invited because there is not all that systemic doping scheme acknowledge in Japan.

My point : it’s not just random. It’s just WE don’t know the procedure they miss or whatever they f**k they did to put them in that situation. I am not saying they doped. But they didn’t check all the good marks so to skate in the Ooooo. It may be something silly like accidentally hunging off the phone to a anti-doping agent while sneezing... but there IS something. Why them, why not some other skaters?

Not necessarily. Someone could have made an allegation which is untruthful. Which means they may not have done anything at all. They don’t seem to know themselves what they have supposedly done. That’s not right. I don’t have a reason to love Russia, they occupied my country for over 20 years and it wasn’t particularly pleasant living with them in our city, the constant reminder of what had happened. And yet I strongly feel this is wrong. And I doubt the moral values of anyone who thinks that ‘collateral damage is fine’. I also feel strongly against blind trust in institutions, e.g. believing that ‘they must have done something wrong if they were not invited’. There is no transparency and that’s wrong.
How would you feel being arrested without being given any reasons? And how would you feel if other people were saying you must have done something wrong if you have been arrested?

 

[kwanfan1818]

Neither do they! And that's the whole fcuking point! They are being punished for something they DID NOT DO.

The skaters not knowing is independent from whether they met the committee's criteria for an invitation.

Russia agreed to participate in the Olympics under these terms. Either they didn't negotiate for disclosure or the IOC would not agree to it, and they sent invited athletes anyway.

 

[Vash01]

Some people really think they randomly chose two figure skaters and banned them because they were Russians? If you don’t know the reason, that doesn’t mean there is no reason. And I am sure they can know by now through their juridical consellors.

The IOC holds a hot potato, they wouldn’t not invite people by playing cards, as some think it might work.

Unless they give an explanation for not inviting these two skaters, it is going to appear random. The explanation need not contain All the details- that would be for CAS or a court- but the general information needs to be there. I am not sure the skaters know it either. It is just your assumption that they know.

 

[thvu]

Not sure how or why this difficult to understand. Stolbova and Bukin would have been at Pyeongchong no questions, if Russia hadn't endorsed cheating in Sochi.

Your argument is basically this:

It’s their fault for being Russian.

If you live your life this way, justifying injustice due to the sins of the father and others, then I feel sorry for those around you.

 

[MsZem]

My point is that there must be something they did, not saying they doped, but didn’t totally comply with the rules and they must suspect what it is. That + being Russian= not invited. Just that + being Japanese = invited because there is not all that systemic doping scheme acknowledge in Japan.

My point : it’s not just random. It’s just WE don’t know the procedure they miss or whatever they f**k they did to put them in that situation. I am not saying they doped. But they didn’t check all the good marks so to skate in the Ooooo. It may be something silly like accidentally hunging off the phone to a anti-doping agent while sneezing... but there IS something. Why them, why not some other skaters?

If the IOC is so certain that these athletes are at fault, they should release the evidence. Athletes do not deserve to be banned from the biggest sporting event there is and have their good name tarnished based on secret proceedings.

 

[Twilight1]

Your argument is basically this:

It’s their fault for being Russian.

If you live your life this way, justifying injustice due to the sins of the father and others, then I feel sorry for those around you.

I am saying it is the fault of certain Russians they are in this predicament. Your translation is wrong.

 

[caseyedwards]

Athletes shouldn’t be doing #putinteam but rather #putinadmitthedoping

 

[Willin]

If there is a reason, why were Stolbova and Bukin both allowed to compete at Euros and presumably will both be allowed to compete at Worlds? If you are found guilty of any doping related offence (failing a test, missing a test or not declaring a TUE), you are barred for competing at ANY competition. From a procedural point of view, it does not make any sense.

Bit flippant to shrug and claim collateral damage.

They are allowed to compete at Euros and Worlds because the ISU is not the IOC. The IOC has a different standard of why they're barring athletes than the ISU. The ISU is only banning athletes who doped, the IOC is banning athletes who either doped or had some sort of suspicious thing on their record that might be related to doping (whatever that may be).

For justice to be justice it has to be transparent. When even the skaters don’t seem to know why they are being barred that is a problem.

I agree with this completely. At the very least the skaters need to know, and if the IOC wants to make itself look better in this situation they need to release the reasons. Right now, based on these responses, it appears people are most mad that the IOC has banned athletes who appear to have done nothing wrong - a major PR issue. If the IOC just comes out and says what the wrong thing they did was, then maybe the furor would die down even a little bit.

 

[Anyasnake]

Maybe they know what went wrong by now, but aren't saying anything ?

 

[lala]

I don't think being satistfied that state sponsored doping by Russia is being confronted is smugness. If it was Canadians I would feel the same. Cheating is cheating. Ben Johnson lost his gold because of cheating. He was Canadian. I personally thought any sport that had a lot of cheating should have had NO athletes allowed to go. Why?

Because of accountability and integrity. What the games should be all about.

I wish the figure skaters weren't penalized because I would have loved to have seen Stolbova and Bukin medal in the team event and even individuals.

Principles before personalities.

That is not smugness. That is holding sport at a high level and wanting clean athletes.

NONE of this would have happened if Russia hadn't cheated. Point blank.

RIDICULOUS! This is not so easy. If anybody cheats the IOC bans him and tells the reason thus everybody accepts it. But in this case there will be a shadow on Bukin's and Ksenia's career because the other Russian skater are allowed to compete. If they don't know the reason they can't defend themselves. This is the problem.
But if Ksenia and Ivan cheated I wouldn't like to see them on WCH! Without reasons this whole thing is stupid,disgusting, unjust, outrageous....!!!!!

 

[MsZem]

Maybe they know what went wrong by now, but aren't saying anything ?

Doesn't the public deserve to know, too? Those expensive Olympic broadcasts won't watch themselves. Unless revealing the source of the information jeopardizes people's well-being, the IOC should be more transparent. And if there is a risk, they should explain the nature of it.

 

[Anyasnake]

Doesn't the public deserve to know, too? Those expensive Olympic broadcasts won't watch themselves. Unless revealing the source of the information jeopardizes people's well-being, the IOC should be more transparent. And if there is a risk, they should explain the nature of it.

We deserve to know, I completely agree. And if they aren't allowed to say anything, let us know so too.

 

[mjb52]

Not necessarily. Someone could have made an allegation which is untruthful. Which means they may not have done anything at all. They don’t seem to know themselves what they have supposedly done. That’s not right. I don’t have a reason to love Russia, they occupied my country for over 20 years and it wasn’t particularly pleasant living with them in our city, the constant reminder of what had happened. And yet I strongly feel this is wrong. And I doubt the moral values of anyone who thinks that ‘collateral damage is fine’. I also feel strongly against blind trust in institutions, e.g. believing that ‘they must have done something wrong if they were not invited’. There is no transparency and that’s wrong.
How would you feel being arrested without being given any reasons? And how would you feel if other people were saying you must have done something wrong if you have been arrested?

I think it's interesting how much some people are insisting there "must" be a reason, in the absence of any indication that there IS a reason. I think psychologically if they allow themselves to admit that it is possible that there is simply no reason at all then they will have to admit how unfair this process is, and that is something they are not ready to do. So they latch on to the idea that there is a reason but we just don't know what it is despite the fact that the simplest possible explanation for there being no statement of why these specific skaters are not being invited is because there IS no why. We don't know the reason because there is none. How is that not more likely than that there is some secret reason that the relevant body is keeping secret despite the fact that they could simply say what it is and remove all doubt.

If there is a reason, say what it is. Until that day comes, I see no reason why anyone should assume it exists on faith.

 

[kwanfan1818]

I think it's interesting how much some people are insisting there "must" be a reason, in the absence of any indication that there IS a reason. I think psychologically if they allow themselves to admit that it is possible that there is simply no reason at all then they will have to admit how unfair this process is, and that is something they are not ready to do. So they latch on to the idea that there is a reason but we just don't know what it is despite the fact that the simplest possible explanation for there being no statement of why these specific skaters are not being invited is because there IS no why.

In the process that Russia accepted, the structure is that there needed to be a reason to invite the skaters, and that reason is that they met all of the criteria. They either met the criteria, or they didn't. If they didn't, they didn't get an invite. That could be because the skaters did something, or because they didn't, which could have been procedural.

So, to use your structure, "I think psychologically if they allow themselves to admit that because the Russian Olympic Committee, which submitted the list to the IOC for review, wasn't given a reason for any rejections, there must not be a reason. So they latch onto the simplest possible explanation, which is that there is no reason for the lack of invite."

 

[mjb52]

In the process that Russia accepted, the structure is that there needed to be a reason to invite the skaters, and that reason is that they met all of the criteria. They either met the criteria, or they didn't. If they didn't, they didn't get an invite. That could be because the skaters did something, or because they didn't, which could have been procedural.

So, to use your structure, "I think psychologically if they allow themselves to admit that because the Russian Olympic Committee, which submitted the list to the IOC for review, wasn't given a reason for any rejections, there must not be a reason. So they latch onto the simplest possible explanation, which is that there is no reason for the lack of invite."

There is a huge difference between saying that without a justification being given there is no reason to assume that a justification exists and saying that despite the fact that no justification has been given we should assume it exists without any evidence of its existence.

 

[caseyedwards]

Maybe they know what went wrong by now, but aren't saying anything ?

It’s in their interest to say if they know so they can sue the IOC for clearance

 

[kwanfan1818]

There is a huge difference between saying that without a justification being given there is no reason to assume that a justification exists and saying that despite the fact that no justification has been given we should assume it exists without any evidence of its existence.

That's only if an athlete is removed, and no one was removed. It is not if the athlete needs to be invited, where there needs to be a reason to extend the invitation.

You can choose to believe anything you want and demean anyone who believes differently all you want.

 

[caseyedwards]

That's only if an athlete is removed, and no one was removed. It is not if the athlete needs to be invited, where there needs to be a reason to extend the invitation.

You can choose to believe anything you want and demean anyone who believes differently all you want.

But there’s a real problem here! Especially in CAS ruling which all but accuses those not invited of doping. There’s a real damage to reputation and where is recourse to say “show me the evidence of my doping! I want to know what you know because I have no idea what’s going on!” I don’t know if it’s ever been done but like Bukin for example should demand a wada investigation of himself!

 

[hanca]

That's only if an athlete is removed, and no one was removed. It is not if the athlete needs to be invited, where there needs to be a reason to extend the invitation.

You can choose to believe anything you want and demean anyone who believes differently all you want.

I wonder if you would feel the same if athletes from your country haven’t been invited. The bottom line is that they are punishing athletes who were vlean for something that they were not involved in. What if Shibutanis or Virtue-Moir haven’t been invited as a punishment for something someone else did? And without giving any reason? Would you feel it is right?

 

[kwanfan1818]

I wonder if you would feel the same if athletes from your country haven’t been invited. The bottom line is that they are punishing athletes who were vlean for something that they were not involved in. What if Shibutanis or Virtue-Moir haven’t been invited as a punishment for something someone else did? And without giving any reason? Would you feel it is right?

If the Shibs and/or V/M -- both from my countries -- hadn't been invited, I would think the exact same thing:

1. That my NOC's had agreed to a level of disclosure in order to have anyone participate, and it is my NOC's responsibility for agreeing to it, even if it meant that athletes are punished, ie, held to higher standards and more scrutiny, for something someone else did.
2. That my NOC's would be screaming loudly if there was a breach of that agreement.
3. That any communication with any agreed-upon detail would be between the IOC and my NOCs and not directly to the athletes.
4. That it is highly likely that the athletes from my country(ies) did not meet the published, publicly available criteria for an invitation.
5. That the IOC's criteria are different than the ISU's criteria, and that the ISU's criteria don't apply 1:1 for the Olympics, in this special case and overall.
6. Exactly what I think about Stolbova and Bukin: that it was likely a procedural issue, not a positive doping test, that resulted in the lack of invitation.
7. That's it's not the IOC's responsibility to publish anything except what they agreed to, unless they found it in their best interest (and I don't think that includes mollifying me.)
8. That it sucks for the athletes and, especially their partners.

 

[Twilight1]

I think it's interesting how much some people are insisting there "must" be a reason, in the absence of any indication that there IS a reason. I think psychologically if they allow themselves to admit that it is possible that there is simply no reason at all then they will have to admit how unfair this process is, and that is something they are not ready to do. So they latch on to the idea that there is a reason but we just don't know what it is despite the fact that the simplest possible explanation for there being no statement of why these specific skaters are not being invited is because there IS no why. We don't know the reason because there is none. How is that not more likely than that there is some secret reason that the relevant body is keeping secret despite the fact that they could simply say what it is and remove all doubt.

If there is a reason, say what it is. Until that day comes, I see no reason why anyone should assume it exists on faith.

I don't work that way. I work on faith. I don't assume people are lying. *this goes for the competitors and IOC*

I don't assume Stolbova and Bukin are lying when they say they don't truly understand why they can't go, but I also don't assume it is a big conspiracy against Team Russia that some competitors can't compete and are barred/banned.

I work with complex clients. I never once assume they are lying. But I also don't assume that things don't get missed by them because of convenient or unaware omission.

I don't consider that lying or covering up per se. I just think puzzles are much more complex than focusing on the isolated parts.

As stated above, I firmly believe that some bullshyte issue occurred for Stolbova and Bukin and that truly sucks. I also believe any other year, it probably would have been figured out and resolved before the event.

It is all grey. Very very grey. And I agree that transparency would be great. But we are only fans.

Hope this message makes sense.

Would also like to mention if OAR does not win Team Gold... it is an asterisk in my mind because I think they had the overall stronger team. I do truly wish this issue had been handled better but I also firmly believe in honesty, integrity and accountability and Sochi did not show that from the top down from Russia.

 

[MacMadame]

Well I would argue that it is discrimination, just that when it's comes to athletic competition discrimination based on ability and performance aren't bad things.

I don't think that's what discrimination is. Having standards and not admitting people who don't meet them is not discrimination. Discrimination is having standards and not admitting people who DO meet them for reasons unrelated to the standards.

I'll tell you what bugs me... all these headlines saying that these athletes are banned from the Olympics for doping violations. NO, THEY WERE NOT. Athletes who have actual doping violations (that they haven't served their time for and so are now eligible to compete again) would have doping violations on their record and actually be banned. (Those cases were decided in the previous CAS decision.) These athletes do not have doping violations on their records and therefore don't have a ban on their records.

 

[lala]

It's not over yet.
https://www.instagram.com/p/Be_HNSTFOKJ/?taken-by=plushenkoofficial
On the second pic is the English text. But I'm sure this is absolutely unnecessary.

 

[Vash01]

If the Shibs and/or V/M -- both from my countries -- hadn't been invited, I would think the exact same thing:

1. That my NOC's had agreed to a level of disclosure in order to have anyone participate, and it is my NOC's responsibility for agreeing to it, even if it meant that athletes are punished, ie, held to higher standards and more scrutiny, for something someone else did.
2. That my NOC's would be screaming loudly if there was a breach of that agreement.
3. That any communication with any agreed-upon detail would be between the IOC and my NOCs and not directly to the athletes.
4. That it is highly likely that the athletes from my country(ies) did not meet the published, publicly available criteria for an invitation.
5. That the IOC's criteria are different than the ISU's criteria, and that the ISU's criteria don't apply 1:1 for the Olympics, in this special case and overall.
6. Exactly what I think about Stolbova and Bukin: that it was likely a procedural issue, not a positive doping test, that resulted in the lack of invitation.
7. That's it's not the IOC's responsibility to publish anything except what they agreed to, unless they found it in their best interest (and I don't think that includes mollifying me.)
8. That it sucks for the athletes and, especially their partners.

I disagree. I am not going to respond to each of the 8 points. Just a summary of what I see.

Your logic/analysis makes assumptions just like many others are making. For example, the assumption that the ROC must have agreed to something so it must be their fault. The IOC is not responsible for anything, and the IOC is always right.

What we need is the whole story, and not just a part of it. We need the truth to stop all these speculations. The IOC, as a governing body has some responsibilities, and unless they are transparent, I don't believe there is fairness here.

 

[Vagabond]

I wonder if you would feel the same if athletes from your country haven’t been invited. The bottom line is that they are punishing athletes who were vlean for something that they were not involved in. What if Shibutanis or Virtue-Moir haven’t been invited as a punishment for something someone else did? And without giving any reason? Would you feel it is right?

There are some people who prefer outcomes that make as many people happy as possible, regardless of whether rules are followed, and there are others who prefer having rules followed, even if the outcome is not the preferred one. I am one of the latter group. So are many others of us here -- and not just Americans and Canadians, as far as I can tell.

An ability to recognize and respect the existence of ways of thinking that differ from one's own is a hallmark of adulthood.

 

[Twilight1]

What if Shibutanis or Virtue-Moir haven’t been invited as a punishment for something someone else did? And without giving any reason? Would you feel it is right?

Perspective. If Canada was involved with state sponsored cheating and they got caught doing it... I would be SUPER PISSED at the cheaters, the organizers and gutted for my favourite skaters who just got screwed by circumstances beyond their control. But the blame would be based on the cheaters.

 

[barbarafan]

The difference is that Ben Johnson (who you used as an example) cheated. Stolbova and Bukin did not cheat. You are talking about accountability and integrity, but punishing those who didn’t do anything wrong for something what other Russians did is wrong. They could have punished Russia by not having them compete at all, but selecting a few who didn’t do anything wrong to be punished for someone else is not right. This is not about being tough and giving deserved punishment; this seems like having ulterior motive and getting rid of competitors.
How would you feel to be punished because some other people from your country did something wrong? And to add to it, other people from your country are not punished the same, which means you have been singled out, without being given any explanation? And the punishment is huge, they prepare for Olympics for many years.

Obviously some of their preparations were a bit OTT

 

[hanca]

Perspective. If Canada was involved with state sponsored cheating and they got caught doing it... I would be SUPER PISSED at the cheaters, the organizers and gutted for my favourite skaters who just got screwed by circumstances beyond their control. But the blame would be based on the cheaters.

that’s nice to hear. So why on this occasion you are happy that the blame is not on the cheaters, but on random skaters of the same nationality? Does it help you feel better if your nationality get some medals, even if it is gained dishonestly, by weakening their direct competitors by any means, no matter how dishonest the means are? Do you think that if Russians cheated in Sochi, it gives other nationalities the rights to cheat this time, believing that no one can say a word because Russians are the cheaters, not you? Do you think it is fair if innocent athletes have been denied their right to compete? You seem to be very happy ro accept the situation, even though athletes who never took drugs are not allowed to compete. One wonders if it is athletes from your country who have something to gain.