IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

They set up a system that favoured athletes who could afford to pay their own expenses. If you don't like the word discrimination, than pick another, but considering this is not an issue now it's hardly about claiming 'victim-hood' as you call it.
It's exactly the word "discrimination" that i find incorrect. The system, as practically EVERY transaction in life where "consideration exchanges hands" favors those who can pay. IOC did NOT have an "intent" to exclude a particular class of athletes. IOC had other reasons to separate amateur and professional athletes, actually for protection of amateurs, and not for the purpose of "exclusion" by economic criteria.

A plain reading of the rules excluded state sponsorship of athletes but these rules weren't evenly enforced.
In case of China, Cuba, Russia, E. Germany and the rest of East Block countries, this rule can not be implemented because of DIFFERENT economic systems. Bad or good, a country has a right to determine its economic system.

Athletes were not allowed to accept gifts or prizes that were valued about $50, and they weren't allowed to convert such items to cash.
I believe what you mean is limitation on such from "commercial entities", but not from private sources, such as rich uncle, a wealthy person who wanted to contribute, a bank loan, etc. I know coaches who coached for free in hope for results, rinks that let the skaters work at the rink (zamboni, food counters, skate counter, building cleaning), etc.

The only ability I was talking about was the ability to pay.
A person with "less ability to pay" is not a "protected minority group", so there can be no "discrimination".
 
I was pointing to an example of issues in the history of the IOC and picked the time period of the mid-1970's. I wasn't trying to give a full history of the IOC. If people are interested there's lots of information out there about there they can go and read.
Indeed. I quoted your posts and Tinami's to give context, but I was responding to a different poster, who apparently can't be bothered to read the posts here. :shuffle:
 
It's exactly the word "discrimination" that i find incorrect. The system, as practically EVERY transaction in life where "consideration exchanges hands" favors those who can pay. IOC did NOT have an "intent" to exclude a particular class of athletes. IOC had other reasons to separate amateur and professional athletes, actually for protection of amateurs, and not for the purpose of "exclusion" by economic criteria.
Intent is not necessarily for discrimination to occur, the only important aspect is that it did create a barrier to inclusion.

In case of China, Cuba, Russia, E. Germany and the rest of East Block countries, this rule can not be implemented because of DIFFERENT economic systems. Bad or good, a country has a right to determine its economic system.
No, but the rules were not applied equally. US athletes who received athletic scholarships should not have been eligible either. Countries could provide for training expenses, but when it included living expenses the athletes were supposed to be paying their own way.

I believe what you mean is limitation on such from "commercial entities", but not from private sources, such as rich uncle, a wealthy person who wanted to contribute, a bank loan, etc. I know coaches who coached for free in hope for results, rinks that let the skaters work at the rink (zamboni, food counters, skate counter, building cleaning), etc.
The rules don't mention commercial entities, they simply mention presents that could be converted to money or other monetary advantages are not allowed.


A person with "less ability to pay" is not a "protected minority group", so there can be no "discrimination".
That's a legal definition, and would be applicable if someone filled a lawsuit. I was speaking more to the idea that on of the Olympics stated goals is inclusion, and that having rules that prevent athletes from earning a living from their sport created barriers that would prevent them from participating. As the 1980's dawned the IOC did away with these rules and eventually invited professional athletes in to the games because of the financial benefits to the IOC. Having the best athletes at the Olympics eventually trumped a wish for amateurism.
https://stillmed.olympic.org/Docume...mpic_Charter_Eligibility_Rules_of_the_IOC.pdf
 
Intent is not necessarily for discrimination to occur, the only important aspect is that it did create a barrier to inclusion.
A lot of rules in athletics, in federations, in IOC, not intentionally, result in "barriers" to participation in the int'l events or olympics: if an ice skater lives in a country which does not have a skating federation; if an athlete is involved in a sport which is not included in the Olympics (roller-skating been trying for 40 years..); when athletes could not participate in Olympics because of the government politics they had no control over (South Africa); limit on number of participants per country to 3 in FS, when for example top 5 japanese and russian ladies rank much higher than top european ladies, etc... And yet we don't call it "discrimination".

No, but the rules were not applied equally. US athletes who received athletic scholarships should not have been eligible either. Countries could provide for training expenses, but when it included living expenses the athletes were supposed to be paying their own way.
I am not talking about athletic scholarships, but various loans, private donations, etc.. Each country has its own economic system. Chinese athletes get support from the State. US athletes have options of taking out a loan, having a rich private sponsor, etc., which is not possible in china, russia, DDR, etc..

Please don't misunderstand me, i am VERY happy, that ALL athletes now can make money commercially. That was a DUMB rule... I am ONLY objecting to the terms "economic discrimination". But yes, the earlier "amateur rules" were idiotic... :D
 
A lot of rules in athletics, in federations, in IOC, not intentionally, result in "barriers" to participation in the int'l events or olympics: if an ice skater lives in a country which does not have a skating federation; if an athlete is involved in a sport which is not included in the Olympics (roller-skating been trying for 40 years..); when athletes could not participate in Olympics because of the government politics they had no control over (South Africa); limit on number of participants per country to 3 in FS, when for example top 5 japanese and russian ladies rank much higher than top european ladies, etc... And yet we don't call it "discrimination".
Well I would argue that it is discrimination, just that when it's comes to athletic competition discrimination based on ability and performance aren't bad things. It's discrimination based on other factors that is harmful to good high level athletic competition.
 
Did CAS order the IOC to say why?
At the hearing, the Applicants acknowledged that the IOC had the ability to institute such process. The CAS Panel found that the Applicants did not demonstrate that the manner in which the two special commissions (the Invitation Review Panel (IRP) and the Olympic Athlete from Russia Implementation Group (OAR IG) independently evaluated the Applicants was carried out in a discriminatory, arbitrary or unfair manner. The Panel also concluded that there was no evidence the IRP or the OAR IG improperly exercised their discretion.

http://www.tas-cas.org/fileadmin/user_upload/Media_Release_AHD9_DecisionOG18_02_03.pdf
 
“A decision to verify compliance with established requirements”

None of the banned were considered compliant! So missed the tests or other kinds of noncooperation

“participate in the Winter Games under prescribed conditions - a process that was designed to balance the IOC’s interest in the global fight against doping and the interests of individual athletes from Russia.”
 
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So net result: they're still banned, but they don't get to find out why, and apparently no-one has a problem with this?!
Exactly! They have no ADRV case against them. They are not entitled to any information. No one is saying they ever did anything wrong in an official setting. It’s secret from them. They will never know unless there is an official case brought against them. So anytime form now to 2022 Bukin for example could be charged! Just like that! At any moment if they feel like charging him or get enough evidence to. If they feel like it.

I’m sure there will be opposition from Russia. Why can’t you argue against suspicion costing you an invitation to an event? I think Bukin should be able to sue for all the evidence fourneyron used against him.
 
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So net result: they're still banned, but they don't get to find out why, and apparently no-one has a problem with this?!
Yes, para 7.19 admits that it may be that they are prevented from participating only based on the fact that they are Russians, but they believe it is alright. Lovely! I thought you can be punished only for what you have done, not for the fact that you are Russian.
 
This whole process has been disgusting, almost as disgusting as the smugness of some posters and their delight at this clear injustice.

I don't think being satistfied that state sponsored doping by Russia is being confronted is smugness. If it was Canadians I would feel the same. Cheating is cheating. Ben Johnson lost his gold because of cheating. He was Canadian. I personally thought any sport that had a lot of cheating should have had NO athletes allowed to go. Why?

Because of accountability and integrity. What the games should be all about.

I wish the figure skaters weren't penalized because I would have loved to have seen Stolbova and Bukin medal in the team event and even individuals.

Principles before personalities.

That is not smugness. That is holding sport at a high level and wanting clean athletes.

NONE of this would have happened if Russia hadn't cheated. Point blank.
 
I don't think being satistfied that state sponsored doping by Russia is being confronted is smugness. If it was Canadians I would feel the same. Cheating is cheating. Ben Johnson lost his gold because of cheating. He was Canadian. I personally thought any sport that had a lot of cheating should have had NO athletes allowed to go. Why?

Because of accountability and integrity. What the games should be all about.

I wish the figure skaters weren't penalized because I would have loved to have seen Stolbova and Bukin medal in the team event and even individuals.

Principles before personalities.

That is not smugness. That is holding sport at a high level and wanting clean athletes.

NONE of this would have happened if Russia hadn't cheated. Point blank.
The difference is that Ben Johnson (who you used as an example) cheated. Stolbova and Bukin did not cheat. You are talking about accountability and integrity, but punishing those who didn’t do anything wrong for something what other Russians did is wrong. They could have punished Russia by not having them compete at all, but selecting a few who didn’t do anything wrong to be punished for someone else is not right. This is not about being tough and giving deserved punishment; this seems like having ulterior motive and getting rid of competitors.
How would you feel to be punished because some other people from your country did something wrong? And to add to it, other people from your country are not punished the same, which means you have been singled out, without being given any explanation? And the punishment is huge, they prepare for Olympics for many years.
 
Again- this mess would not have happened if state sponsored cheating had not happened. We don't actually know the whole story with Stolbova and Bukin. Just conjecture so therr actually could be there for a reason. Probably a minor issue that wouldn't have come to light because it was really a non issue any other day except everyone is scrutinized right now.

They would have never been under the microscope if the Sochi disaster didn't happen.

Not sure how or why this difficult to understand. Stolbova and Bukin would have been at Pyeongchong no questions, if Russia hadn't endorsed cheating in Sochi.

It sucks but the whole country has been held to account.
 
Again- this mess would not have happened if state sponsored cheating had not happened. We don't actually know the whole story with Stolbova and Bukin. Just conjecture so therr actually could be there for a reason. Probably a minor issue that wouldn't have come to light because it was really a non issue any other day except everyone is scrutinized right now.

They would have never been under the microscope if the Sochi disaster didn't happen.

Not sure how or why this difficult to understand. Stolbova and Bukin would have been at Pyeongchong no questions, if Russia hadn't endorsed cheating in Sochi.

It sucks but the whole country has been held to account.
That’s an argument which doesn’t support integrity very much. they would be here if the cheating in Sochi didn’t happen - well, neither Stolbova or Bukin ever cheated.
If an Asian person kills someone, does it make it right to send to prison another Asian person instead? You could say the same argument- person B wouldn’t be in prison if the murder did not happen. Bottom line is, it was not person B who killed. There is no proof that person B was even involved in any killing. How does it make it right to punish person B based only on their ethnicity? The truth is, in any court, person B would never be punished without any proof. But with the Olympics, the major countries seem to be fighting for any advantage, no matter how unfair the advantage will be. So why not remove Russian pair number two, who could be medal contenders, and Russian dance number two. The couple and the pair would have contributed to the team event, so by that they got rid of two strong teams from the Russian team event, leaving them with the choice of their number one doing both SP and FS and then may be too tired for the individual event, or having the SP or FS do by a much weaker team. In any case, it will influence the results of the Russian team, and I wonder if that was the intention. What if the greedy Russians ended up with too many medals? No worries, we will fix it.
 
That’s an argument which doesn’t support integrity very much. they would be here if the cheating in Sochi didn’t happen - well, neither Stolbova or Bukin ever cheated.
If an Asian person kills someone, does it make it right to send to prison another Asian person instead? You could say the same argument- person B wouldn’t be in prison if the murder did not happen. Bottom line is, it was not person B who killed. There is no proof that person B was even involved in any killing. How does it make it right to punish person B based only on their ethnicity? The truth is, in any court, person B would never be punished without any proof. But with the Olympics, the major countries seem to be fighting for any advantage, no matter how unfair the advantage will be. So why not remove Russian pair number two, who could be medal contenders, and Russian dance number two. The couple and the pair would have contributed to the team event, so by that they got rid of two strong teams from the Russian team event, leaving them with the choice of their number one doing both SP and FS and then may be too tired for the individual event, or having the SP or FS do by a much weaker team. In any case, it will influence the results of the Russian team, and I wonder if that was the intention. What if the greedy Russians ended up with too many medals? No worries, we will fix it.

All of the above sounds conspiracy theory. People fail to see that because cheating happened in Sochi repercussions have occured. The repercussions would not have happened if cheating did not occur. Agree or no?
 
If you are syaing that there must be a reason, don’t you think it is interesting that IOC is not sharing the reasons for each athlete? Any time someone is caught doping and banned, ISU publishes note on the case, so that everyone can see what happened, what has been done to ascertain the truth, the athlete’s side of the story, and the conclusion that includes the punishment. That’s integrity because it is a transparent process. What IOC have done is not transparent at all. You are being punished but we won’t tell you or anyone else what you are supposedly done.

Suspicious minds wonder whether they are not publishing it because there is nothing to explain. One can’t provide explanation if there is no reason behind their decision. They can’t say very well “we picked them randomly because we don’t want Russia to have too many medals”.
 
All of the above sounds conspiracy theory. People fail to see that because cheating happened in Sochi repercussions have occured. The repercussions would not have happened if cheating did not occur. Agree or no?
No, not agree. One needs to punish the guilty ones, not the innocent ones who share the same nationality. Agree or not?
 
Some people really think they randomly chose two figure skaters and banned them because they were Russians? If you don’t know the reason, that doesn’t mean there is no reason. And I am sure they can know by now through their juridical consellors.

The IOC holds a hot potato, they wouldn’t not invite people by playing cards, as some think it might work.
 
Some people really think they randomly chose two figure skaters and banned them because they were Russians? If you don’t know the reason, that doesn’t mean there is no reason. And I am sure they can know by now through their juridical consellors.

The IOC holds a hot potato, they wouldn’t not invite people by playing cards, as some think it might work.
Did you bother to read the para 7.19? To me it admits that it is a possibility that they are innocent.
 
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Some people really think they randomly chose two figure skaters and banned them because they were Russians? If you don’t know the reason, that doesn’t mean there is no reason. And I am sure they can know by now through their juridical consellors.

The IOC holds a hot potato, they wouldn’t not invite people by playing cards, as some think it might work.

If there is a reason, why were Stolbova and Bukin both allowed to compete at Euros and presumably will both be allowed to compete at Worlds? If you are found guilty of any doping related offence (failing a test, missing a test or not declaring a TUE), you are barred for competing at ANY competition. From a procedural point of view, it does not make any sense.

Bit flippant to shrug and claim collateral damage.
 
If there is a reason, why were Stolbova and Bukin both allowed to compete at Euros and presumably will both be allowed to compete at Worlds? If you are found guilty of any doping related offence (failing a test, missing a test or not declaring a TUE), you are barred for competing at ANY competition. From a procedural point of view, it does not make any sense.

Bit flippant to shrug and claim collateral damage.
My point is that there must be something they did, not saying they doped, but didn’t totally comply with the rules and they must suspect what it is. That + being Russian= not invited. Just that + being Japanese = invited because there is not all that systemic doping scheme acknowledge in Japan.

My point : it’s not just random. It’s just WE don’t know the procedure they miss or whatever they f**k they did to put them in that situation. I am not saying they doped. But they didn’t check all the good marks so to skate in the Ooooo. It may be something silly like accidentally hunging off the phone to a anti-doping agent while sneezing... but there IS something. Why them, why not some other skaters?
 

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