IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

Don't think it is helpful or accurate to be comparing this situation with murder or terrorism.

However, it is troubling that some of you on the other side of the argument seem not to be perturbed by the lack of transparency behind the decisions that have been taken.

I actually did speak to that but because I am "for" repercussions. That point got glazed over ;) Being for honesty integrity inherently involves transparency... but I am an evil Canadian just wanting more medals for my country. :rolleyes:
 
In this way the terrorism is legal. For eaxmple the terroroists can kill American innocent people because they were born to American. And the American army did some awful things somewhere.
What is wrong with you?
 
What is wrong with you?
With me? What is wrong with you? Or is this your normal condition? I noticed you are always rude with me..despite to the fact I didn't have a bad word for you during the almost 6 years since I'm here.
 
However, it is troubling that some of you on the other side of the argument seem not to be perturbed by the lack of transparency behind the decisions that have been taken.
Concern is neither here nor there unless there is a legal issue. The IOC asks the way it acts because they can within the bounds of law, unless someone proves they haven't, and because they think it is in their best interest. We can think they are behaving unethically, but that doesn't change the fact that they're a behemoth that can, and, in this case, CAS has agreed they can, and we don't know what legal constraints they were under or what kind of precedent that would set. Why would you expect them to behave in any way but in their best interest? When have the athletes been their primary concern?
 
Would anyone really be surprised if after the Olympics another decision comes out that says oops, most of those noninvited athletes actually didn't do anything after all, our bad?
Yes, actually I'd very surprised. First, based on the statements of the IOC when they created the review committee, not being invited doesn't necessarily mean that a doping offense has been committed. Second, there is a group of the non-invited athletes that the IOC does believe are guilty of a doping offense, but the evidence wasn't sufficient for the CAS. Third, do you really think the IOC would admit to any error, and even if they did, they're covered by number one.
 
Yes, actually I'd very surprised. First, based on the statements of the IOC when they created the review committee, not being invited doesn't necessarily mean that a doping offense has been committed. Second, there is a group of the non-invited athletes that the IOC does believe are guilty of a doping offense, but the evidence wasn't sufficient for the CAS. Third, do you really think the IOC would admit to any error, and even if they did, they're covered by number one.
They may be forced to admit to an error, if the athletes continue to pursue it through courts. I can’t see that the athletes would want to just drop the issue, because it is throwing shade on their names and it is damaging their future careers. It is not just a one-off event and ‘it is done, let it go’. Everyone will be looking at them with suspicion while they don’t even know what is it that they are supposed to have done.
 
ROC is suspended until IOC says it isn’t! They believe Putin will do what he’s been ordered to do to get roc reinstated before Pyeongchang is over but that’s no guarantee!
 
So when ISU bans skaters there is no privacy issues to consider, but when IOC has some concerns, and they admit the skaters may not have even taken drugs, they are worried about the skaters’ privacy? Yes, that’s really likely! (Or not)
 
The ACT and the SAT (College Board) have both canceled test scores for large swaths of students in Asia after repeated cheating problems. A number of test dates were canceled entirely. These abrupt changes greatly hampered a number of students who were trying to apply to US and Canadian colleges. I'm sure that a significant number of them didn't cheat, but there comes a point when action needs to be taken.

I wish that the IOC would disclose what the issues were for the uninvited athletes, but I doubt it was simply random.
 
Privacy concerns prevent the IOC telling Stolbova and Bukin why they were banned. Riiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiight.
No, the IOC may not be able to release information publicly due to privacy issues. I'm aware of no reason why they couldn't inform the athletes.

Or are you calling them liars when they say they don't know?
I have no reason to believe that Stolbova & Bukin are lying, but I'm not sure about the flow of information in the Russian sports administration at this time. I've said before that we have no reason to trust the information being given from the Russian Olympic Committee, and the information from the IOC would go to the ROC first, and then it would be the ROC that would communicate with the athlete. At least, that's how it normally works.

So when ISU bans skaters there is no privacy issues to consider, but when IOC has some concerns, and they admit the skaters may not have even taken drugs, they are worried about the skaters’ privacy? Yes, that’s really likely! (Or not)
No, there are always privacy concerns when it comes to doping. Organizations are not allowed to release information about positive tests until the athletes have been notified, and in many cases, until a discipline decision has been determined.
 
No, the IOC may not be able to release information publicly due to privacy issues. I'm aware of no reason why they couldn't inform the athletes.


I have no reason to believe that Stolbova & Bukin are lying, but I'm not sure about the flow of information in the Russian sports administration at this time. I've said before that we have no reason to trust the information being given from the Russian Olympic Committee, and the information from the IOC would go to the ROC first, and then it would be the ROC that would communicate with the athlete. At least, that's how it normally works.


No, there are always privacy concerns when it comes to doping. Organizations are not allowed to release information about positive tests until the athletes have been notified, and in many cases, until a discipline decision has been determined.
If that was the case IOC would have come out and stated that they have already communicated the reasons to ROC for each athlete, which they haven’t done so.
 
Again- this mess would not have happened if state sponsored cheating had not happened. We don't actually know the whole story with Stolbova and Bukin. Just conjecture so therr actually could be there for a reason. Probably a minor issue that wouldn't have come to light because it was really a non issue any other day except everyone is scrutinized right now.

They would have never been under the microscope if the Sochi disaster didn't happen.

Not sure how or why this difficult to understand. Stolbova and Bukin would have been at Pyeongchong no questions, if Russia hadn't endorsed cheating in Sochi.

It sucks but the whole country has been held to account.

So why wasn't the whole country banned? It smells fishy, VERY fishy, why some were and were not invited. It is an outrage Stolbova and Bukin aren't allowed to attend. I hope they can proceed with legal action...
 
Lack of transparency is always concerning. I wish the IOC would be more up front about the reasons why certain athletes were invited while others were not. My best understanding of the situation is that privacy concerns prevent such a release. I really wish the whole thing could be sped up so that we could see a resolution to this situation and know which athletes were not involved so that everyone could feel confident about their inclusion in the Olympics, and any other upcoming events.

Why is privacy a concern in only this case? They never hesitated to announce the names of athletes who failed the drug tests.
 
British journalist from insidethegames are complaining about Semion Elistarov is allowed to compete, even though he tested positive for Meldonium and later cleared along with the likes of Bobrova. It is really pathetic.
 
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Why is privacy a concern in only this case? They never hesitated to announce the names of athletes who failed the drug tests.
That's just not true, often we don't hear about positive tests until quite a while after they have occurred because the process has to play out. Look at what happened with the Russian's who went before the Oswald Commission. In those cases where the commission found in favour of the athlete, the athlete's name was not released.
 
Sigh... you are right I just wanted to show the parallel and wanted to show the weirdness of Twilight1's opinion.

Cheating does not equal terrorism or murder. In any way, so "my" opinion is only weird because YOU don't like it. That false equivalency was ridiculous.

Ross Rebagliati and Ben Johnson were the only Olympic athletes from Canada who tested for substances (that I can recall). Ben lost his gold. Ross smoked weed, I would have been fine if his gold medal had had to return based on the rules as well.
 
Cheating does not equal terrorism or murder. In any way, so "my" opinion is only weird because YOU don't like it. That false equivalency was ridiculous.

Ross Rebagliati and Ben Johnson were the only Olympic athletes from Canada who tested for substances (that I can recall). Ben lost his gold. Ross smoked weed, I would have been fine if his gold medal had had to return based on the rules as well.

I want to clear I think the cheating doesn't equal the terrorism. I wanted to show the parallel in the way of thinking.
But I'm saying again I just want to know the reasons why they are punished. They deserve it and we figure skating fans also deserve it. If the IOC says something we can accept or not but probably it wouldn't be so incomprehensible,
unprecedented, stupid, unjust, outrageous.
 
There is no parellel in that though. The only equivalency is with other cheating. But the issue with this is the cheating was proven to be systemic. The only other equivalancy would be East Germany.

So my stance would remain.

The proof of cheating occured, ramifications should also occur. Because the response from Russia for almost ALL their athletes is no cheating ever occurs and denying the evidence. How does one move forward when they are out right lying?

Just nod and say "okay" and no repurcussions? What message does that send to the Olympics? What message does that send to kids that they just need to cheat and they can get away with it if they just loe and deny?

A recent track meet occurred in Russia. When the doping testers made a surprise visit, 30 Russian athletes dropped out.

30. And that is since Rio where they couldn't compete. (Moscow Times ran the article so it isn't biased NA media btw)

https://themoscowtimes.com/news/rus...competition-after-doping-agency-arrives-60204

So my issue is with them caught but still cheating, what makes us now assume they aren't here?

The ONLY point I agree on is transparency. Otherwise, IMHO, the punishment in some did not fit the crime to the extent it should have.

They handled this poorly but not having any ramifications sends the wrong message.

You will never get me to change my stance on that. Nor the fact that the people to blame aren't the reacting people to the cheating, but Russia itself.

Disagree all you want. But ramifications for state cheating should occur. Too bad the cheaters are hiding behind the clean athletes.
 
There is no parellel in that though. The only equivalency is with other cheating. But the issue with this is the cheating was proven to be systemic. The only other equivalancy would be East Germany.

So my stance would remain.

The proof of cheating occured, ramifications should also occur. Because the response from Russia for almost ALL their athletes is no cheating ever occurs and denying the evidence. How does one move forward when they are out right lying?

Just nod and say "okay" and no repurcussions? What message does that send to the Olympics? What message does that send to kids that they just need to cheat and they can get away with it if they just loe and deny?

A recent track meet occurred in Russia. When the doping testers made a surprise visit, 30 Russian athletes dropped out.

30. And that is since Rio where they couldn't compete. (Moscow Times ran the article so it isn't biased NA media btw)

https://themoscowtimes.com/news/rus...competition-after-doping-agency-arrives-60204

So my issue is with them caught but still cheating, what makes us now assume they aren't here?

The ONLY point I agree on is transparency. Otherwise, IMHO, the punishment in some did not fit the crime to the extent it should have.

They handled this poorly but not having any ramifications sends the wrong message.

You will never get me to change my stance on that. Nor the fact that the people to blame aren't the reacting people to the cheating, but Russia itself.

Disagree all you want. But ramifications for state cheating should occur. Too bad the cheaters are hiding behind the clean athletes.
Well athletes aren’t responsible for what the state orders them to do! They could flee of course and become sports refugee but there are few cases of sports refugees. Like all refugees there is the matter of leaving families behind! That’s why total immunity for any athletes who turn in their phones where they texted the Russian ministry their doping control form and bottle numbers so they could change their urine would be best. In a total autocratic dictatorship like Russia where there is no democracy or freedom and state runs everything you have to be understanding! Like their was for east Germany! Not one athlete from east Germany when Germany wAs reunited was ever banned! Even though they knew all east german based athletes doped.
 
An individual has no free will in Russia? So we should just suck up systemic cheating because Russia is corrupt and just sit back and be okay with it?

Sorry but that makes ramifications for state cheating even more important to do by the IOC. If there is no pay off, why do it?

The collateral damage again are the clean atheletes who have corruption and dirty athletes hiding behind them.
 
An individual has no free will in Russia? So we should just suck up systemic cheating because Russia is corrupt and just sit back and be okay with it?

Sorry but that makes ramifications for state cheating even more important to do by the IOC. If there is no pay off, why do it?

The collateral damage again are the clean atheletes who have corruption and dirty athletes hiding behind them.
Not really Because it’s like east Germany! How many East Germans were ever punished? Zero!! There are extreme and maybe deadly consequences for free will.
 
How many drugged E. German athletes should have had their medals withdrawn? All of them.

Medals (or tests) are not like criminal trials. In a criminal trial, the explanation that you were forced to do something could (and should) gain you leniency or even a not guilty verdict.
 
Not really Because it’s like east Germany! How many East Germans were ever punished? Zero!! There are extreme and maybe deadly consequences for free will.
Wasn't Ingo Steur punished for his work with the Stasi? It seems to me that Germany had bigger things to worry about a the time, and the rules have changed quite a bit since then.
 

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