IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

@Lovemyvike That's so sad to read. It sucks that she, Bukin, and their partners have to stay home from the Olympics after all their hard work without a released reason.:wuzrobbed

The way she worded that in English - is she considering retirement after this year or is it one of those weirdly phrased things?
 
The way she worded that in English - is she considering retirement after this year or is it one of those weirdly phrased things?]
No, she said, at least in the Russian version "i am staying to the end".

Моя борьба за право быть в большом спорте не прекращалась и до сих пор не прекращается ни на минуту. И только ваша поддержка и любовь дают мне силы продолжать жить, работать и бороться за фигурное катание. Я буду идти до конца!

My struggle to remain in Big Sport never ended and will not end even now, not for one minute. Only your support and love give me the strength to keep on living, working and fighting for figure skating. I will continue to the end!
 
Not a very strong argument. Who are your sources that it can be used in prevention? Where are your peer reviewed studies?

Medical experts in courts use peer-reviewed research aka "research articles" or "articles." These are not opinions - these are write-ups of studies and statistics. Opposing experts will present the best data they have. As I said, there are no peer reviewed good research articles that state it can be used in this way. Opinion differs when data is sketchy or unclear or where articles contradict each other. In the case of Meldonium there appears to be little contradiction.

ETA: Here is a good editorial from the BMJ of current research and what it means for athletes - basically low doses do nothing (and can even harm athletic performance due to increasing exercise intolerance), but if an athlete takes too much it can easily kill them.
Unlike you who claimed that they used it without it having any therapeutic help, I don’t claim to know. I offered you alternative explanation that you can’t prove is not possible. So you shouldn’t be claiming that you know, when you in fact decided to believe to someone.
 
Did the IOC say these athletes were banned from the Olympics for life? I thought it was only this year's. Since many of the criteria involve getting a certain number of tests at approved labs, there's no reason to think they wouldn't be eligible for the next Olympics.

The CBC article mentioned several of the athletes were banned for life, not just merely not invited, and with no concrete evidence of wrongdoing.

It's disgusting that actual convicted dopers with positive tests who knowingly and willingly doped are still allowed to compete in the Olympics and we get whined at about but he served his time so he should be allowed back even if he was busted twice, but the IOC banned several Russian athletes for life without a single positive test.
 
The CBC article mentioned several of the athletes were banned for life, not just merely not invited, and with no concrete evidence of wrongdoing.

It's disgusting that actual convicted dopers with positive tests who knowingly and willingly doped are still allowed to compete in the Olympics and we get whined at about but he served his time so he should be allowed back even if he was busted twice, but the IOC banned several Russian athletes for life without a single positive test.
I have to say, the Olympics and the whole situation around it leaves me feeling very uncomfortable. I don’t think I will view Olympics the same way ever again. I used to believe in the whole idea that it is supposed to unite people from all over the world, but it is like if it has been soiled. Like if I lost my naive view and it is not possible to see it the same way ever again. I don’t want to sound melodramatic, but I wouldn’t mind if in the future olympics were gradually cancelled. Obviously they wouldn’t cancel the ones that are already being planned, but just don’t plan any further ones.
 
Last edited:
The CBC article mentioned several of the athletes were banned for life, not just merely not invited, and with no concrete evidence of wrongdoing.

It's disgusting that actual convicted dopers with positive tests who knowingly and willingly doped are still allowed to compete in the Olympics and we get whined at about but he served his time so he should be allowed back even if he was busted twice, but the IOC banned several Russian athletes for life without a single positive test.
The CAS has overturned the lifetime ban for 11 Russian athletes banned by the Oswald Commission, but found the evidence of their doping infractions sufficient to uphold a ban from this Olympics. The IOC, and a number of national Olympic Committees have implemented rules to ban athletes with doping bans, but the CAS has routinely ruled against lifetime bans, which is why there are athletes who can compete at the Olympics who have had previous doping bans.
 
I have to say, the Olympics and the whole situation around it leaves me feeling very uncomfortable. I don’t think I will view Olympics the same way ever again. I used to believe in the whole idea that it is supposed to unite people from all over the worlds, but it is like if it has been soiled. Like if I lost my naive view and it is not possible to see it the same way ever again. I don’t want to sound melodramatic, but I wouldn’t mind if in the future olympics were gradually cancelled. Obviously they wouldn’t cancel the ones that are already being planned, but just don’t plan any further ones.
I can understand why you feel that why. The Olympics have been very good over the past 30 years of presenting a false image of what they really are. Keep in mind that the Olympics were created as a place for rich white frat boys and country clubbers to compete in an international sporting event. If you watch the movie 'Race', about the 1936 Olympics and the life of Jesse Owens, you'll get small introduction to Avery Brundage. Brundage was an American who headed up the IOC for many years, and the Olympics nearly didn't survive his leadership. The Olympic movement in the late 1970's and 80's faced a crossroads and needed to invite in commercialism and allow professional athletes in order to keep the movement alive.

Now the games face another crossroads with the overwhelming size and particularly the cost of hosting the games. The costs of security post 9/11 have skyrocketed and have forced most cities to forgo bidding when just a decade ago the idea of hosting an Olympic games (particularly the Summer games) was attracting more than 10 different bids every four years. The sporting world is trying to confront doping but it's a messy process, and different organizations have different goals. The Olympics have brought sports to different parts of the world, and have increased women's participation in sports at the highest level. But whether there is enough good in the Olympic movement to keep going is an open question, one that I'm certainly still wrestling with myself.
 
Considering the cost of the whole thing and the commercialism of it, wouldn’t it be better if each sport had their own event every 4-5 years, which would be the ‘ultimate goal’ for athletes, but it would be done on much smaller scale and it wouldn’t be more expensive to organise than let’s say world championships? The event in each sport would be run by the organisation who is the main body of the sport, so figure skating would be run by ISU. Then there wouldn’t be two different standards about being eligible for competitions run by ISU, but not being invited to Olympics without a reason being given. Either you are banned for drug use, or you are eligible to compete at worlds and at this version of Olympics, if your country sends you.
 
I can understand why you feel that why. The Olympics have been very good over the past 30 years of presenting a false image of what they really are. Keep in mind that the Olympics were created as a place for rich white frat boys and country clubbers to compete in an international sporting event.
Davka. Impoverished Greek boys and nerdy Jewish university students is more like it.

Spyridon Louis
Spiridon "Spyros" Louis (Greek: Σπυρίδων "Σπύρος" Λούης, sometimes transliterated Loues; 12 January 1873 – 26 March 1940) was a Greek water-carrier who won the first modern-day Olympic marathon at the 1896 Summer Olympics, thereby becoming a national hero.

Louis was born in the town of Marousi, which is now a suburb to the north of Athens, into a poor family. Louis's father sold mineral water in Athens, at the time lacking a central water supply, and his son helped him by transporting it.

Ioannis Malokinis
Malokinis was the winner of what may be the most obscure Olympic event ever. His victory came in the 100 m freestyle swimming for sailors, which was only open to Greek sailors from navy ships harboured at Piraeus. The 16-year-old Malokinis, enlisted on the Hydra, won by defeating his two compatriots, but his winning time was over a full minute slower than [Alfréd Hajós] in the normal 100 m freestyle.

Alfréd Hajós
Hajós was born in Budapest, Hungary, as Arnold Guttmann. He was 13 years old when he felt compelled to become a good swimmer after his father drowned in the Danube River. He took the name Hajós (sailor in Hungarian) for his athletic career because it was a Hungarian name.

In 1896, Hajós was an architecture student in Hungary when the Athens Games took place. He was allowed to compete, but permission from the university to miss class was difficult to obtain. When he returned to the Dean of the Polytechnical University, the dean did not congratulate Hajós on his Olympic success, but instead said: "Your medals are of no interest to me, but I am eager to hear your replies in your next examination."
:COP:
 
@skatingguy @Vagabond I think the Olympics started with noble goals - an athletic competition between amateurs (so, normal people) and then has evolved into a competition of who gets the most $$$ throughout their career via sponsorship, state funding, or personal wealth. Either I believe the Olympics project a false image of all these athletes being poor amateurs when in reality very few are.

Unlike you who claimed that they used it without it having any therapeutic help, I don’t claim to know. I offered you alternative explanation that you can’t prove is not possible. So you shouldn’t be claiming that you know, when you in fact decided to believe to someone.
Because it has no therapeutic help for those who haven't had a heart attack. The scientific evidence and studies state that rather clearly, as the scientific evidence also shows your alternative explanation isn't correct. Yes, off-label prescribing is a thing, but generally there is a reason a doctor will do it - usually at least a couple sound initial studies. This off-label use (prevention) has 0 studies supporting that use.
 
Except the creator of the drug claims it does have therapeutic benefit for elite athletes who are constantly stressing their hearts. I'm not surprised there are no studies about it though. If there were studies, it wouldn't be an "off-label" use. It would become part of the protocol. So saying there are no studies to support its use that way is misleading.
 
@MacMadame Per the review/editorial in the BMJ, it appears it may actually be harmful to athlete's hearts based on the pharmacology of the drug and its physiological effects. Per other studies in mouse and human/athlete models, it's cardioprotective effects happen only in individuals who have previously experienced myocardial infarction or myocardial ischemia - and I doubt that many athletes have previously had a heart attack.
"Off label" simply means it hasn't been fully approved by a government regulatory body for use in a specific condition/population it's being used for; NOT that there's no studies to back up that use. Journals regularly publish research on "off label" uses. Many things we don't think of as "off label" are technically "off label." Heck, we know morphine treats pain well and have been using it for childhood acute pain since the '70s, but as of 2012 it was still "off-label" to prescribe it to kids - it may still be that way. So saying there are no studies to support its off label use is not misleading - if it's been used off label for 10+ years in such a widespread manner, one would expect at least a couple small studies.
 
@MacMadame Per the review/editorial in the BMJ, it appears it may actually be harmful to athlete's hearts based on the pharmacology of the drug and its physiological effects. Per other studies in mouse and human/athlete models, it's cardioprotective effects happen only in individuals who have previously experienced myocardial infarction or myocardial ischemia - and I doubt that many athletes have previously had a heart attack.
"Off label" simply means it hasn't been fully approved by a government regulatory body for use in a specific condition/population it's being used for; NOT that there's no studies to back up that use. Journals regularly publish research on "off label" uses. Many things we don't think of as "off label" are technically "off label." Heck, we know morphine treats pain well and have been using it for childhood acute pain since the '70s, but as of 2012 it was still "off-label" to prescribe it to kids - it may still be that way. So saying there are no studies to support its off label use is not misleading - if it's been used off label for 10+ years in such a widespread manner, one would expect at least a couple small studies.
Alright, so the creator is lying and you know better, we get it. And all the Russians who believed that it has preventative benefits are either stupid idiots who believe all the lies of the creator, or they are cheats who were hoping to dope by over the counter medication. Did I get it right?
 
@hanca No, no you did not. I don't know why you are painting my argument in such a negative light with no nuance? Maybe to troll? This is actually a rather fun exercise in re-reading and reviewing literature and matches up nicely with a book I'm reading right now about medical treatments.

I don't know better - the medical literature knows better, and I trust that more than the person/company that made the drug.
As for if he's lying, who knows - it may help prevent future heart attacks in people who have already had a heart attack if it's taken during their rehabilitation process, so maybe he was referring to that and athletes/coaches/sports medicine doctors misinterpreted it. Or maybe he's in the long line of drug makers who say their new drug is a miracle thing that can cure a ton of illnesses not related to that drug's pharmacology (I'm leaning towards this based on all the things it's claiming to cure) - but he wouldn't be the first and won't be the last to do that, and it's certainly not a Russian phenomenon - no one does medical marketing quite like the US. Just ask all of our citizens and athletes who trust "natural supplements," "protein powder," and "homeopathy" to boost performance. And certainly they wouldn't be stupid to believe him. You trust doctors and professionals because you trust they know what they're talking about and wouldn't lie to you (even accidentally). And along those lines, sure, some were looking to cheat, but I'm sure just as many trusted the word of a medical professional that it would be good for their heart and took it to protect their health - that's the reason Maria Sharipova gave for why she took it.
 
Please give examples of, and explain if possible "economic discrimination" by IOC. I am not sure i understand or can think of examples.
During the presidency of Avery Brundage the IOC was very harsh on athletes who made money off their sport. So if your family had money and could support athletic career than it was fine - or your country paid for everything - than you could compete in the Olympics for as long as you wanted. But if you didn't have the economic resources and needed to earn money to continue you could be rule ineligible for the Olympics if any of the money earned could be linked to sport. So, for example, skiers working as ski instructors were banned from the Olympics.
 
During the presidency of Avery Brundage the IOC was very harsh on athletes who made money off their sport. So if your family had money and could support athletic career than it was fine - or your country paid for everything - than you could compete in the Olympics for as long as you wanted. But if you didn't have the economic resources and needed to earn money to continue you could be rule ineligible for the Olympics if any of the money earned could be linked to sport. So, for example, skiers working as ski instructors were banned from the Olympics.

He also died in 1975...
 
I was overstating things, but there is a history within the IOC of racism and economic discrimination.

Please give examples of, and explain if possible "economic discrimination" by IOC. I am not sure i understand or can think of examples.

During the presidency of Avery Brundage the IOC was very harsh on athletes who made money off their sport. So if your family had money and could support athletic career than it was fine - or your country paid for everything - than you could compete in the Olympics for as long as you wanted. But if you didn't have the economic resources and needed to earn money to continue you could be rule ineligible for the Olympics if any of the money earned could be linked to sport. So, for example, skiers working as ski instructors were banned from the Olympics.

He also died in 1975...
News flash: History began earlier than 1976. :COP:
 
During the presidency of Avery Brundage the IOC was very harsh on athletes who made money off their sport. So if your family had money and could support athletic career than it was fine - or your country paid for everything - than you could compete in the Olympics for as long as you wanted. But if you didn't have the economic resources and needed to earn money to continue you could be rule ineligible for the Olympics if any of the money earned could be linked to sport. So, for example, skiers working as ski instructors were banned from the Olympics.
He was president for 20 years and undoubtedly influenced other IOC members for many years.

"This ideal was best realized, Brundage believed, in amateur sports: the athlete, he stated, should compete "for the love of the game itself without thought of reward or payment of any kind", with professionals being part of the entertainment business. Amateurism, to Brundage, expressed the concept of the Renaissance man, with abilities in many fields, yet a specialist in none."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Avery_Brundage#Amateurism

He also had two children with a mistress and went to great lengths to conceal their existence. Stand up guy. :rolleyes:

By the 70s, Brundage was basically the only reason the rules were in place:

After the 1972 retirement of IOC President Avery Brundage, the Olympic amateurism rules were steadily relaxed, amounting only to technicalities and lip service, until being completely abandoned in the 1990s (In the United States, the Amateur Sports Act of 1978 prohibits national governing bodies from having more stringent standards of amateur status than required by international governing bodies of respective sports. The act caused the breakup of the Amateur Athletic Union as a wholesale sports governing body at the Olympic level).

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amateur_sports
 
Last edited:
During the presidency of Avery Brundage the IOC was very harsh on athletes who made money off their sport. So if your family had money and could support athletic career than it was fine - or your country paid for everything - than you could compete in the Olympics for as long as you wanted. But if you didn't have the economic resources and needed to earn money to continue you could be rule ineligible for the Olympics if any of the money earned could be linked to sport. So, for example, skiers working as ski instructors were banned from the Olympics.
I think this is a gross misuse, or perhaps "ulterior motive use" of the word "discrimination". Every one is yelling "discrimination" because its popular to claim "victim-hood"....

The amateur rules did exist, and they prevented ALL athletes in ALL sports from commercial activities. But the rules did not prevent athletes from taking private funds, loans, donations, federation's or state sponsorship. The rules applied to all. Discrimination is when an individual or a group is intentionally singled out and excluded.

ISU/IOC did not have any rules stating "if you are poor (below certain income level) you can not participate". A poor person can find a rich sponsor, by the way... :D

There are all sorts of circumstances that may hinder a person, biology, economics, location, etc.. I guess by your logic those who do not live in cities/towns with ice skating rinks are also discriminated against, because one needs ice to skate.. Come to think of it, i am being discriminated against in ice skating, my best jumps are doubles, and the ass-hat figure skating world moved on to triples and quads.. and i stand no chance.. :lol:
 
I think this is a gross misuse, or perhaps "ulterior motive use" of the word "discrimination". Every one is yelling "discrimination" because its popular to claim "victim-hood"....
They set up a system that favoured athletes who could afford to pay their own expenses. If you don't like the word discrimination, than pick another, but considering this is not an issue now it's hardly about claiming 'victim-hood' as you call it.

The amateur rules did exist, and they prevented ALL athletes in ALL sports from commercial activities. But the rules did not prevent athletes from taking private funds, loans, donations, federation's or state sponsorship. The rules applied to all. Discrimination is when an individual or a group is intentionally singled out and excluded.
A plain reading of the rules excluded state sponsorship of athletes but these rules weren't evenly enforced.

ISU/IOC did not have any rules stating "if you are poor (below certain income level) you can not participate". A poor person can find a rich sponsor, by the way... :D
Athletes were not allowed to accept gifts or prizes that were valued about $50, and they weren't allowed to convert such items to cash.

There are all sorts of circumstances that may hinder a person, biology, economics, location, etc.. I guess by your logic those who do not live in cities/towns with ice skating rinks are also discriminated against, because one needs ice to skate.. Come to think of it, i am being discriminated against in ice skating, my best jumps are doubles, and the ass-hat figure skating world moved on to triples and quads.. and i stand no chance.. :lol:
The only ability I was talking about was the ability to pay.
 

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top
Do Not Sell My Personal Information