IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

@hanca ITA with @WildRose - there's no reason to give anyone a medication they don't need. As much as we hate to think about it, literally every medication has some sort of side effect or possible adverse effect that can happen to pretty much anyone no matter how rare. There's no reason to risk giving a young healthy athlete an abnormal heart rhythm (which can be deadly), high blood pressure, etc. for no reason at all. Not only that, but we have no idea what complications (short and long term) this medication has from long term use. Most of the athletes using it were using it on a long term basis, when it's only recommended to be used for a max of 6-8 weeks - even in the small group that would benefit from this medication.

@Tinami Amori I wonder what the suspicious tests are and what are adaptation? Or what range they're using? The bodies of people who come from populations that live at low altitudes (so most Europeans), will produce a higher number of Red Blood Cells when at higher altitudes - and skiing is a sport typically done at high altitudes. So while it may be doping, it may be the scientists are using the sea level RBC range and applying it to RBC counts that may be within a normal range for us lowlanders at altitude. Hemoglobin levels also increase in the same manner at altitude.
So until we know if these athletes have Hgb and RBC levels above what should be expected of typical European or Korean athletes when at the altitude of ski courses, we'll have no idea if they were doping or simply using an inappropriate measure of these ranges to compare athletes to.
Not that I'm saying this isn't doping - it seems like this sport has a huge doping problem and is ripe for erythropoietin doping - just that I'm not sure what they consider unusual and if that unusual is appropriate.

Interestingly, those in populations acclimatized to higher altitudes - most famously Native Tibetans - can survive at high altitude with the same RBC count as most people need at sea level! So regardless of the range they'd probably pass this test.
 
@Tinami Amori I wonder what the suspicious tests are and what are adaptation? Or what range they're using? The bodies of people who come from populations that live at low altitudes (so most Europeans), will produce a higher number of Red Blood Cells when at higher altitudes - and skiing is a sport typically done at high altitudes. So while it may be doping, it may be the scientists are using the sea level RBC range and applying it to RBC counts that may be within a normal range for us lowlanders at altitude. Hemoglobin levels also increase in the same manner at altitude.
Ha! you beat me to a subject which i starter earlier, and did not finish the conversation with Aerobocidal.... on "Doping and Sports Gene"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2bo82BwOyss[/QUOTE]

There is a famous skier in Finland, Eero Mantyranta, won everything in site. He was born with genetic mutation, which gave him an UNMATCHED advantage, which can only be gained if one takes drugs..... So when he competed with "normal" skiers, they had NO CHANCE....
https://theolympians.co/2018/01/22/...f-a-cross-country-skiing-legend-from-finland/

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2012/may/06/drugs-sport-genes-athletics-women

"Eero Mäntyranta, a Finnish cross-country skier who won gold medals in the 1960 and 1964 Winter Olympics, was found to have abnormally high levels of the protein haemoglobin in his red blood cells. High haemoglobin levels allow athletes to carry more oxygen and are a benefit in endurance sport. Mäntyranta, like all his family who were tested, achieved his high haemoglobin levels by having a genetic mutation in the protein in his body that responded to the hormone erythropoetin (EPO).

At normal levels of EPO, the effect on his body was as if he had much higher levels. A stronger EPO effect means more haemoglobin and therefore more oxygen to his cells. EPO is top of the list of performance-enhancing chemicals, yet here is someone who through an accident of birth behaves exactly as if he was doping with EPO.

Is this fair? How is it different from the cases of Santhi Soundarajan and Caster Semenya? The more we know about the genetic make-up of elite athletes, the harder our decisions about what is right and proper in sport will appear."
 
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Not sure about Bowman, I think his skating went downhill pretty fast after he started using drugs.
That's not what his Wikipedia biography says.
"In Inside Edge by Christine Brennan, Bowman admitted to having had a $950 a day cocaine habit during his eligible career, and that he had checked into the Betty Ford Center before the 1988 Olympic Games."
So he went in a rehab center for the 1988 OG between a 3rd place at US Nats and a 5th place at Worlds.
The year after, he was US champion and had his best result at Worlds, a silver medal.
The year after, he withdrew from US championships but ended 3rd at Worlds.
Then he parted with Frank Carroll but still managed a silver and a gold medal at 1991 and 1992 US champs, a 5th and a 4th place at Worlds and a 4th place at Albertville OG.

He was 25 when he retired after that which is average for a male skater.
His career didn't take a tragic turn right after he started using drug.
I think such a skater can go on for a while before it really takes a toll on his health/career.

I remember a discussion about another athlete who started the same kind of addiction after an injury. It allowed "it" to go on for a while and at a very high level. But it started to be too much after a while so "it" had to retire earlier than what "it" really wanted. But it took around 5 years to become unsustainable.

Now, I remember Jean-Rolland Racle talking about doping in figure skating.
He was saying clearly that, yes there was doping in figure skating in the 60s/70s. That the russians and the eastern german were into lots of stuff.
But when he was asked about now (and that was 15 years ago), he was a lot more elusive like "errr, I'm not the best person to ask the question, I don't really know about right now" but what he made clear at the time was that in his opinion, doping in figure skating would be especially useful during the off-season, during the physical preparation of the season. (and let's be honest, if doping was useful then, it has every chance to be useful now)

Doping has been revolutionized by sport professionnalisation where doctors oversee athletes which are gathered around professional structures and by the evolution of medicine which went from pushing the body to its limit to enhancing the body's ability to a near supernatural level. One can never say enough how much of a miraculous difference a product such as EPO does to the human body. You can have someone dying (litterally) and the day after an EPO injection, he's ready to go on a hike. Of course when you're really sick, it doesn't last more than a few days. But for an athlete, it's a phenomenal booster. It is fabulous for endurance sports but for other sports, it's the possibility to train far beyond normal capacity.

Doping nowadays is highly organized stuff, down to a science. Far from the amateur days where athlete x would prepare his/her own little potion on the day and where only state doping would be scientifically organized.
 
I assume you are being sarcastic.
Nope. I'm making a point about Bowman's non declining amateur career.
(I'll leave the point of him not reaching his full capacity to those who followed him more carefully than I did)
 
Now, I remember Jean-Rolland Racle talking about doping in figure skating.
He was saying clearly that, yes there was doping in figure skating in the 60s/70s. That the russians and the eastern german were into lots of stuff.
But when he was asked about now (and that was 15 years ago), he was a lot more elusive like "errr, I'm not the best person to ask the question, I don't really know about right now" but what he made clear at the time was that in his opinion, doping in figure skating would be especially useful during the off-season, during the physical preparation of the season. (and let's be honest, if doping was useful then, it has every chance to be useful now).
If there was "doping in russian skating" in 60/70's, then we would have heard about it long time ago, from Oleg Protopopov after he and Ludmila defected to the West, and he had not problems complaining about "everything soviet". He would have had a perfect motivation to speak out given he was dismissed off pedestal in Russia by younger stronger more athletic teams, including Rodnina/Ulanov/Zaitszev. The other realities were Dance did not need doping, and Russian singles were not high performers at the time. However, if that counts, Protopopov drank his own urine, as a some kind of "those times new-age treatment"... because he just had to be "oh, so special"....:rolleyes:

The only documented "doping" cases in skating (during soviet times and post-soviet decade) are:
- Thierry Cerez/FRA - conclusion: not enough substance found to call it "cheating".
- Berezhnaya/RUS - cold medicine
- Klimova/RUS - was cleared after 2nd re-test
- Sviridov/Uzbekistan - cold med. cleared after 3 mo. suspention.
- Ina/USA - refused to open the door in her apt. to a tester (for valid reasons)
- Kostner/ITA - boyfriend's doping issue/cover up.
 
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If there was "doping in russian skating" in 60/70's, then we would have heard about it long time ago, from Oleg Protopopov after he and Ludmila defected to the West, and he had not problems complaining about "everything soviet". He would have had a perfect motivation to speak out given he was dismissed off pedestal in Russia by younger stronger more athletic teams, including Rodnina/Ulanov/Zaitszev. The other realities were Dance did not need doping, and Russian singles were not high performers at the time. However, if that counts, Protopopov drank his own urine, as a some kind of "those times new-age treatment"... because he just had to be "oh, so special"....:rolleyes:

The only documented "doping" cases in skating are:
- Thierry Cerez/FRA - conclusion: not enough substance found to call it "cheating".
- Berezhnaya/RUS - cold medicine
- Klimova/RUS - was cleared after 2nd re-test
- Sviridov/Uzbekistan - cold med. cleared after 3 mo. suspention.
- Ina/USA - refused to open the door in her apt. to a tester (for valid reasons)
- Kostner/ITA - boyfriend's doping issue/cover up.
The junior pair skater, Nagalatiy, was suspended for about a year for something drug related a few years ago. I am sure she just took something she shouldn’t have and it was an honest mistake. They were disqualified from JGP in Minsk in 2013.
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...banned-1-year-for-doping-2014jan10-story.html

And you also forgot to name Larionov - he also had to sit out some time.
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080409&content_id=47195&vkey=ice_news
 
Without having to wade thru 1600+ posts to find a simple answer ... .is there any chance whatsoever that Stolbva and Bukin will get cleared to compete? Or is this a done deal they are out with no chance of reversal?
 
The junior pair skater, Nagalatiy, was suspended for about a year for something drug related a few years ago. I am sure she just took something she shouldn’t have and it was an honest mistake. They were disqualified from JGP in Minsk in 2013.
http://www.sandiegouniontribune.com...banned-1-year-for-doping-2014jan10-story.html

And you also forgot to name Larionov - he also had to sit out some time.
http://web.icenetwork.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080409&content_id=47195&vkey=ice_news
I don't know about Nagalatiy, but do know about Larionov, his suspension was reduced after he proved that the furosemide element came from head-ache medicine.
However, both boys' situation was much later than during or immediately after the "soviet sports system".

Without having to wade thru 1600+ posts to find a simple answer ... .is there any chance whatsoever that Stolbva and Bukin will get cleared to compete? Or is this a done deal they are out with no chance of reversal?

As of today, there are absolutely NO news about Stolbova, Bukin.
 
I don't know about Nagalatiy, but do know about Larionov, his suspension was reduced after he proved that the furosemide element came from head-ache medicine.
However, both boys' situation was much later than during or immediately after the "soviet sports system".
Oksana Nagalati is a girl, not a boy. The only reason I know about her is because I love pairs, including junior pairs. And I am curious with whom Bobrov skates because until now he managed every year a new partner. I think he is on number 7 or something like that.

ETA: yes, out of curiosity I checked it, and seventh year in pair skating, skates with seventh partner. And they will probably have to split up after this season, because she won’t be eligible for seniors yet and he won’t be eligible for juniors any more. So partner number eight soon to come. I am surprised anyone still want to skate with him. I would have thought the female partners would prefer some longer term arrangement.
 
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Nope. I'm making a point about Bowman's non declining amateur career.
(I'll leave the point of him not reaching his full capacity to those who followed him more carefully than I did)

I am confused. I thought you listed those results as example of Bowman being erratic. I see them as pretty normal for a top level skater.
 
Oksana Nagalati is a girl, not a boy. The only reason I know about her is because I love pairs, including junior pairs. And I am curious with whom Bobrov skates because until now he managed every year a new partner. I think he is on number 7 or something like that.

ETA: yes, out of curiosity I checked it, and seventh year in pair skating, skates with seventh partner. And they will probably have to split up after this season, because she won’t be eligible for seniors yet and he won’t be eligible for juniors any more. So partner number eight soon to come. I am surprised anyone still want to skate with him. I would have thought the female partners would prefer some longer term arrangement.
Oh, i see... like i said earlier, i don't know who Nagalati is.... but! here i found you some info, in Russian.
http://sporteveryday.info/pages/nagalatiy-diskvalifitsirovana-na-god-za-doping/#more-12369
After testing positive for banned substance, she did not deny but admitted on her own, that she took a substance perscribed by her mother's doctor, for reduction of swelling (water retention in face and body parts).. She provided the copy of prescription and it is called (translating from Russian, never heard of it) - Кагоцел - Cagocyl? Kagocil? it contains Furocemide, and she took it on Sept 14, 2013 after feeling bloated/swelled up.... Her suspension was also reduced to 1 year, since she cooperated with WADA and her reasons for taking were found to be from "lack of knowledge" rather than "to cheat".
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Кагоцел
 
Oh, i see... like i said earlier, i don't know who Nagalati is.... but! here i found you some info, in Russian.
http://sporteveryday.info/pages/nagalatiy-diskvalifitsirovana-na-god-za-doping/#more-12369
After testing positive for banned substance, she did not deny but admitted on her own, that she took a substance perscribed by her mother's doctor, for reduction of swelling (water retention in face and body parts).. She provided the copy of prescription and it is called (translating from Russian, never heard of it) - Кагоцел - Cagocyl? Kagocil? it contains Furocemide, and she took it on Sept 14, 2013 after feeling bloated/swelled up.... Her suspension was also reduced to 1 year, since she cooperated with WADA and her reasons for taking were found to be from "lack of knowledge" rather than "to cheat".
https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Кагоцел
Oh, @Tinami Amori , shame on you. Are you REALLY telling me that you don’t know a skater who represented your country at JGP just a few years ago? And she tried so hard! Terrible state of affairs.

(But otherwise I mentioned her and Larionov because they were missing on the list you posted above.)
 
I don't know about Nagalatiy, but do know about Larionov, his suspension was reduced after he proved that the furosemide element came from head-ache medicine.
However, both boys' situation was much later than during or immediately after the "soviet sports system".



As of today, there are absolutely NO news about Stolbova, Bukin.

According to her Instagram story, Ksenia is in Philadelphia. Of course, she might have just tagged herself as being there. But I feel like she's probably feeling very defeated at this point. :wuzrobbed:wuzrobbed
 
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According to her Instagram story, Ksenia is in Philadelphia. Of course, she might have just tagged herself as being there. But I feel like she's probably feeling very defeated at this point. :wuzrobbed:wuzrobbed
ha! do you have a link? would like to see... the instagram account for Ksenya is showing her last post from Jan. 28.... with her face only, showing "gray mood"...
https://www.instagram.com/p/BefT_XmHlan/?hl=en&taken-by=stolbova_ksenia

Oh, @Tinami Amori , shame on you. Are you REALLY telling me that you don’t know a skater who represented your country at JGP just a few years ago? And she tried so hard! Terrible state of affairs.
i don't bother with them at JGP levels until they hit top 5.. :EVILLE:
 
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I thought you listed those results as example of Bowman being erratic. I see them as pretty normal for a top level skater.
I think that they are pretty normal too.
That's why I wrote his results in the topic when people said he lost his way in figure skating when he started to take cocaine. That's not that his results show. I find them very respectable for supposedly erratic results.
Which just shows that taking stuff like cocaïne may impact skaters' performance in a positive way as a stimulant and a pain killer (french swimmer Amaury Leveaux wrote in a book that it makes one feel as Superman and it is very much used among swimmers) rather than in a negative way. (even if it may have other negative consequences after the key moment).
 
ha! do you have a link? would like to see... the instagram account for Ksenya is showing her last post from Jan. 28.... with her face only, showing "gray mood"...
https://www.instagram.com/p/BefT_XmHlan/?hl=en&taken-by=stolbova_ksenia


i don't bother with them at JGP levels until they hit top 5.. :EVILLE:

It's not letting me share it for some reason. It just shows a tv screen with the Super Bowl on, and a caption saying #GoEagles. It's tagged in Philadelphia. So maybe she's not there?
 
Oh, @Tinami Amori , shame on you. Are you REALLY telling me that you don’t know a skater who represented your country at JGP just a few years ago? And she tried so hard! Terrible state of affairs.
It's not letting me share it for some reason. It just shows a tv screen with the Super Bowl on, and a caption saying #GoEagles. It's tagged in Philadelphia. So maybe she's not there?
no biggie... we'll know what's up with Ksenya soon enough..
 
All Russians who beat the IOC and had their bans overturned and medals returned have been banned by IOC again!

https://www.rt.com/sport/417860-15-russians-not-invited-olympics/

Good. Hopefully the IOC will also appeal the decision to overturn the bans.

https://olympics.cbc.ca/news/article/icas-president-responds-bach-over-ioc-concerns.html
“The Court of Arbitration for Sport says it will "thoroughly examine" concerns raised by International Olympic Committee president Thomas Bach over the court's decision to overturn lifetime doping bans on 28 Russian athletes.
In a statement Monday the president of the International Council of Arbitration for Sport, Australian John Coates, acknowledged Bach's concerns which will likely lead the IOC to appeal the court's decision.”
 
Good. Hopefully the IOC will also appeal the decision to overturn the bans.

https://olympics.cbc.ca/news/article/icas-president-responds-bach-over-ioc-concerns.html
“The Court of Arbitration for Sport says it will "thoroughly examine" concerns raised by International Olympic Committee president Thomas Bach over the court's decision to overturn lifetime doping bans on 28 Russian athletes.
In a statement Monday the president of the International Council of Arbitration for Sport, Australian John Coates, acknowledged Bach's concerns which will likely lead the IOC to appeal the court's decision.”
Bach did say in his press conference though that CAS decisions are only rarely appealed because the jurisdiction of the Swiss Supreme Court over CAS is actually really limited. Like maybe proof of bribed judges?

Proof no one is a bigger opponent and enemy of putin than Bach though!
 
Except there are adverse effects, athletes have died or had their health ruined from taking performance enhancing drugs. That is why they are banned. Here is just one example:

“Erythropoietin is a type of hormone used to treat anemia in people with severe kidney disease. It increases production of red blood cells and hemoglobin, resulting in improved movement of oxygen to the muscles. Epoetin, a synthetic form of erythropoietin, is commonly used by endurance athletes.
Risks
Erythropoietin use among competitive cyclists was common in the 1990s and allegedly contributed to at least 18 deaths. Inappropriate use of erythropoietin may increase the risk of thrombotic events, such as stroke, heart attack and pulmonary embolism.”
https://www.mayoclinic.org/healthy-...epth/performance-enhancing-drugs/art-20046134
Just about every medication in existence can have adverse side effects. Do tampon boxes still have TSS warnings? If so, I could list you some scary side effects for tampon use, which are neither banned nor a substance. The question isn't whether side effects potentially exist, but whether they are likely, and if so, how severe can they be. "Allegedly contributed" is not the same as "definitely caused", and it's not clear which of the references supports even that claim (which is surprisingly sloppy). If an athlete uses medication to deal with jetlag or muscle recovery, that strikes me as perfectly reasonable. I have colleagues who take stuff to deal with jetlag when they travel to conferences abroad; why shouldn't athletes do the same when traveling to competitions abroad? Lack of concentration can be dangerous and lead to injury.

To me it seems like decisions to ban certain substances, and the related discourse, are concerned with the question of whether the substance is performance enhancing (or potentially masks one that is). That's primarily a fair sport concern, not a health concern. If the goal is fair sport and an even playing field, there's a lot more that needs to be done that's not related to banning performance enhancing substances and practices.
 
The only documented "doping" cases in skating (during soviet times and post-soviet decade) are:
- Thierry Cerez/FRA - conclusion: not enough substance found to call it "cheating".
- Berezhnaya/RUS - cold medicine
- Klimova/RUS - was cleared after 2nd re-test
- Sviridov/Uzbekistan - cold med. cleared after 3 mo. suspention.
- Ina/USA - refused to open the door in her apt. to a tester (for valid reasons)
- Kostner/ITA - boyfriend's doping issue/cover up.
I can actually think of two more:
Oksana Nagalati
and Anastasia Galyeta
I suspect diuretics are a little more prevalent that we'd like to think.
 
Interesting that in skating, it is so often juniors- Nagalati, Galyeta and Larionov were all juniors at the time. It seems to me that it is a stupid mistake because of lack of experience. It is not as if either of them were a contender at worlds or Olympics.
 
Good. Hopefully the IOC will also appeal the decision to overturn the bans.

https://olympics.cbc.ca/news/article/icas-president-responds-bach-over-ioc-concerns.html
“The Court of Arbitration for Sport says it will "thoroughly examine" concerns raised by International Olympic Committee president Thomas Bach over the court's decision to overturn lifetime doping bans on 28 Russian athletes.
In a statement Monday the president of the International Council of Arbitration for Sport, Australian John Coates, acknowledged Bach's concerns which will likely lead the IOC to appeal the court's decision.”

No, BAD. Because the appeals basically mean the IOC is asking for the power to ban athletes for life from the Olympics with no solid evidence of wrongdoing, only the flag next to their name.
 
I am confused. I thought you listed those results as example of Bowman being erratic. I see them as pretty normal for a top level skater.
I’m confused too, because while I agree it’s difficult to make conclusions from such general analysis, what Nmsis did post was that Chris’ best results came after rehab and then got worse (although still good) once he relapsed.
 
We were forced to conduct a short-handed practice, as more than half of the team was taken by the doping officers, and the girls were late for training. The players are motivated [to achieve good results]. We have spent the last two seasons preparing for the Olympics. Facing such a political situation [amid the doping scandal] we want to prove to everyone that we are a competitive and battle-ready squad,” he added.

On way to practice the women’s hockey team was tested so missed it

https://www.rt.com/sport/417894-wada-russian-womens-hockey-training/
 
You know, if there are limited/no adverse consequences to using such substances, I really don't see anything wrong with taking something to recover more quickly from jetlag or from muscle soreness. Clean sport should be about fair play and an even playing field, not about making athletes suffer.
I agree and this is why I find it so :rolleyes: that WADA keeps trying to ban caffeine. GMAFB

Except there are adverse effects, athletes have died or had their health ruined from taking performance enhancing drugs. That is why they are banned.
@Zemgirl specifically said if there are limited or no adverse effects. She's not talking about EPO. That is known to be dangerous and I personally think only an idiot would take it.

Nope. I'm making a point about Bowman's non declining amateur career.
(I'll leave the point of him not reaching his full capacity to those who followed him more carefully than I did)
I didn't say it declined. I said it was erratic. In one of the years you cited, he was expected to *win* Nationals and medal at Worlds.

Bowman was that good that cocaine didn't bring him down as much you'd expect. But it did impact him negatively and he's said so in interviews. Surely he knows what cocaine did to him better than anyone.

No, BAD. Because the appeals basically mean the IOC is asking for the power to ban athletes for life from the Olympics with no solid evidence of wrongdoing, only the flag next to their name.
Did the IOC say these athletes were banned from the Olympics for life? I thought it was only this year's. Since many of the criteria involve getting a certain number of tests at approved labs, there's no reason to think they wouldn't be eligible for the next Olympics.
 
@Zemgirl specifically said if there are limited or no adverse effects. She's not talking about EPO. That is known to be dangerous and I personally think only an idiot would take it.
I'm not very scientifically inclined, so I don't know all that much about EPO and its effects. But yes, the point I was making was of a more general nature.
 
Did the IOC say these athletes were banned from the Olympics for life? I thought it was only this year's. Since many of the criteria involve getting a certain number of tests at approved labs, there's no reason to think they wouldn't be eligible for the next Olympics.

Misskarne was talking about the Oswald banned athletes not the Pyeongchang invitation committee banned athletes. The invitation commitee just said the banned athletes from Pyeongchang had lots of failed tests or suspicious tests or they had anonymous tips they were dopers. Russia isn’t making any progress on many demands so this invitation process is probably going to continue for many Olympics and IOC will continue to ban the athletes banned this year.
 

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