IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

[debo]

So, as of right now, they are still not on the "invited" list and there still hasn't been a reason given?

After almost 1600 posts, I can’t say for sure, but I think you’re right on both counts. Hopefully someone can say either way with certainty.

 

[Lovemyvike]

After almost 1600 posts, I can’t say for sure, but I think you’re right on both counts. Hopefully someone can say either way with certainty.

Oh good, I'm glad I'm not the only one overwhelmed with the info and confused. I'm also sleep deprived, so I'm probably not reading everything with a clear mind. I would just like to know if they are still appealing and if they have any shot of being able to compete. Not that I think it will go well if they are allowed to. This whole debacle has probably taken a mental and physical toll on them. I don't know how they could possibly try and move past it with such a short amount of time remaining. What a crappy situation...

 

[skatingguy]

So, as of right now, they are still not on the "invited" list and there still hasn't been a reason given?

Yes, that's correct. The ruling today by the CAS was regarding 39 Russian athletes banned back in November by the IOC. The CAS found in 28 of those cases that there wasn't sufficient evidence to support a ban. In addition, they reduced the bans of the other 11 athletes from lifetime to the 2018 Winter Olympics only. This ruling does not affect the athletes not invited by the IOC last week, i.e. Stolbova & Bukin.

After almost 1600 posts, I can’t say for sure, but I think you’re right on both counts. Hopefully someone can say either way with certainty.

Oh good, I'm glad I'm not the only one overwhelmed with the info and confused. I'm also sleep deprived, so I'm probably not reading everything with a clear mind. I would just like to know if they are still appealing and if they have any shot of being able to compete. Not that I think it will go well if they are allowed to. This whole debacle has probably taken a mental and physical toll on them. I don't know how they could possibly try and move past it with such a short amount of time remaining. What a crappy situation...

I don't think there's anyone here who has a clear sense of what's going on. We know that the Russians were operating a doping scheme that started after the 2010 Winter Olympics to ensure that the 2014 Winter Olympics would be a success from a medals standpoint. What we don't know is which athletes were involved. We know that the IOC has done a poor job of handling this situation from the beginning, mostly because it's not normally there job, and because they really don't like dealing with controversy if they can ignore it. It's all very depressing and discouraging and I'm at the point now where I'm very close to tuning out the Olympics altogether, and I'm a big Olympic fan. I will get up in the middle of the night to watch men's eight rowing, or wake up early and watch a 10km ski race from begining to end because it's on television and it's the Olympics. I look forward to the Olympics every two years and with just under a week until the Team Event starts I've never been more desperate for the Olympics to be over.

 

[Ka3sha]

Nina Mozer: We all know that Ksenia is clean and has a good name in this sport. And so does the IOC, otherwise they would have notified us about their motives not to invite an OGM to the Olympic Games in PyeongChang. She hasn't been accused in anything, as she has never been suspected by WADA or the IOC. We could have sent one more letter to the IOC (Russian figure skating federation had already sent two letter asking about both Stolbova and Bukin), but I'm practical enough and believe that such questions should be resolved in courts. But Ksenia is an "Olympic athlete from Russia" and that status doesn't allow her to appeal IOC's decision - she wasn't banned (unlike those 28 athletes), she just wasn't invited. Ksenia and Fedor are now preparing for the Worlds.



Guardian: IOC dismayed after doping bans on 28 Russian athletes overturned by Cas

... although for now the IOC is insisting it will not automatically allow any of the Russians cleared by Cas late entry into the Games. “The result of the Cas decision does not mean that athletes from the group of 28 will be invited,” it said in a statement. “Not being sanctioned does not automatically confer the privilege of an invitation.”

 

[Lovemyvike]

Nina Mozer: We all know that Ksenia is clean and has a good name in this sport. And so does the IOC, otherwise they would have notified us about their motives not to invite an OGM to the Olympic Games in PyeongChang. She hasn't been accused in anything, as she has never been suspected by WADA or the IOC. We could have sent one more letter to the IOC (Russian figure skating federation had already sent two letter asking about both Stolbova and Bukin), but I'm practical enough and believe that such questions should be resolved in courts. But Ksenia is an "Olympic athlete from Russia" and that status doesn't allow her to appeal IOC's decision - she wasn't banned (unlike those 28 athletes), she just wasn't invited. Ksenia and Fedor are now preparing for the Worlds.



Guardian: IOC dismayed after doping bans on 28 Russian athletes overturned by Cas

This breaks my heart. I'm sure not nearly enough as it does Ksenia's. This was handled terribly and it will be a big void in the Pairs competition for me.

 

[misskarne]

So in other words, in spite of the spiteful insinuations made by some in this thread, Stolbova doesn't know either.

It's absolutely disgusting that the IOC could just wreck their Olympic dreams and not even have the common decency to tell them why.

 

[rfisher]

at worlds Susie.

 

[millyskate]

I hope S&K, S&B, Majorov and Fournier Beaudry&Sorensen all go have a nice dinner and wine together somewhere far far away from the tv during the events. Maybe they can also invite Ross Miner. These Olys have been deeply tainted by beaurocrats of all kinds. At least I guess, none of them need feel alone in their plight

 

[caseyedwards]

So in other words, in spite of the spiteful insinuations made by some in this thread, Stolbova doesn't know either.

It's absolutely disgusting that the IOC could just wreck their Olympic dreams and not even have the common decency to tell them why.

Ioc is not even respecting CAS decisions now! And they were strident believers and ardent supporters of CAS! The extreme overwhelming hatred of Russians by IOC is really something now!!

 

[ballettmaus]

Ioc is not even respecting CAS decisions now! And they were strident believers and ardent supporters of CAS! The extreme overwhelming hatred of Russians by IOC is really something now!!

How is the IOC not respecting the decision?

 

[caseyedwards]

How is the IOC not respecting the decision?

They haven’t allowed all the athletes to compete and apologized to them!

 

[Willin]

@ballettmaus I suspect it's a mix of two things:

1. This decision came a week and a half before the Olympics - after some athletes had already arrived - giving the IOC minimal time to figure anything out for these athletes (ie. if Russia had 4 spots and they've already chosen 4 allowed athletes to compete, do you allow Russia to send a few extra athletes or force Russia to re-configure their team/not send some people already in Korea)

2. Again, this decision did NOT say these athletes were clean, just that it was unfair to ban them for life based on the limited evidence of doping currently available. The IOC is accepting a lower amount of evidence than the court, which is fair as most courts require a high burden of proof. Personally, I see both sides - the IOC is concerned because the coverup of this scheme was good enough that many doped athletes would not have been caught, so there may not be any hard evidence; the court doesn't think athletes should be banned for life without definitive physical evidence, which is entirely reasonable.

 

[MacMadame]

2. Again, this decision did NOT say these athletes were clean, just that it was unfair to ban them for life based on the limited evidence of doping currently available. The IOC is accepting a lower amount of evidence than the court, which is fair as most courts require a high burden of proof. Personally, I see both sides - the IOC is concerned because the coverup of this scheme was good enough that many doped athletes would not have been caught, so there may not be any hard evidence; the court doesn't think athletes should be banned for life without definitive physical evidence, which is entirely reasonable.

11* of the athletes had their sentence reduced, not wiped out so CAS is absolutely not saying those athletes are clean. They are saying they aren't as dirty as the IOC says they are.

*it was 11, IIRC. I can't find the CAS document that was linked up thread to check.

 

[ballettmaus]

They haven’t allowed all the athletes to compete and apologized to them!

Did CAS say they have to do either?

 

[caseyedwards]

Did CAS say they have to do either?

It would’ve been nice!!

 

[missing]

It would’ve been nice!!

It would also have been nice if the Russian Olympic Committee hadn't fixed drug tests for its athletes in Sochi.

 

[caseyedwards]

It would also have been nice if the Russian Olympic Committee hadn't fixed drug tests for its athletes in Sochi.

But the proof of athletes sending their doping control form numbers to the ministry and or rodchenkov so they knew what bottles to tamper with is missing! No one has found any communications from an athlete letting people know the vital information that made the fixing possible. The fixing isn’t possible without the bottle numbers.

 

[tralfamadorian]

@ballettmaus I suspect it's a mix of two things:

2. Again, this decision did NOT say these athletes were clean, just that it was unfair to ban them for life based on the limited evidence of doping currently available. The IOC is accepting a lower amount of evidence than the court, which is fair as most courts require a high burden of proof. Personally, I see both sides - the IOC is concerned because the coverup of this scheme was good enough that many doped athletes would not have been caught, so there may not be any hard evidence; the court doesn't think athletes should be banned for life without definitive physical evidence, which is entirely reasonable.

That is because in civilized countries, as a main principle you have to prove guilt, not innocence.
If IOC accepts the authority of CAS over itself, it has to abide by the same rules and must not ignore the rulings of CAS. Otherwise what's the purpose of having the CAS at all?

 

[Willin]

@tralfamadorian Yes, but there are different burdens of proof to prove guilt even in civilized countries. In the US, criminal court requires enough evidence to prove the person guilty without a doubt - this seems to be the standard that CAS is using. In civil court, there simply needs to be enough evidence to suggest a person is guilty - I've seen it said like if there's a 51% chance or more the person is guilty based on the evidence, they can be found guilty - that seems to be what the IOC is using.

 

[JanetB]

@tralfamadorian Yes, but there are different burdens of proof to prove guilt even in civilized countries. In the US, criminal court requires enough evidence to prove the person guilty without a doubt - this seems to be the standard that CAS is using. In civil court, there simply needs to be enough evidence to suggest a person is guilty - I've seen it said like if there's a 51% chance or more the person is guilty based on the evidence, they can be found guilty - that seems to be what the IOC is using.

The standard in a criminal trial is beyond a reasonable doubt

The standard that must be met by the prosecution's evidence in a criminal prosecution: that no other logical explanation canbe derived from the facts except that the defendant committed the crime, thereby overcoming the presumption that a person is innocent until proven guilty.

But as you said in a civil trial the burden of evidence is much less

 

[Tinami Amori]

Just FYI. Of all the 28 athletes cleared by CAS (for the purpose of not just competing in current Olys, but for reputation and to keep medals), only 13 are "of any use" in the current Olympics (in terms of original quotas, qualifications, etc.). Out of the group of 28, the Russian side requested only their participation in Korea, plus 2 coaches (from another list). There is communication and negotiations taking place between Russian side and IOC, in Korea, today and Sunday, and supposedly some decision will be reached and announced this upcoming monday.

 

[caseyedwards]

Official OAR products

Hat that says “We OAR The champions”

Lol

https://www.rt.com/sport/417743-neutral-russian-olympic-kit-ddvb-oar/

 

[Lovemyvike]

Just FYI. Of all the 28 athletes cleared by CAS (for the purpose of not just competing in current Olys, but for reputation and to keep medals), only 13 are "of any use" in the current Olympics (in terms of original quotas, qualifications, etc.). Out of the group of 28, the Russian side requested only their participation in Korea, plus 2 coaches (from another list). There is communication and negotiations taking place between Russian side and IOC, in Korea, today and Sunday, and supposedly some decision will be reached and announced this upcoming monday.

It sounded like Stolbova/Klimov (according to Nina Mozer) accepted the ruling and are moving forward to Worlds. I would love nothing more than for them to get cleared to participate to the Olympics, but I would have to think this huge delay and disruption would really throw them off at this point. Or are you referring to others involved?

 

[hanca]

It sounded like Stolbova/Klimov (according to Nina Mozer) accepted the ruling and are moving forward to Worlds. I would love nothing more than for them to get cleared to participate to the Olympics, but I would have to think this huge delay and disruption would really throw them off at this point. Or are you referring to others involved?

Actually, from Mozer’s interview I got the impression that they are taking it to court. But it will probably be too late to attend even if they win.

 

[Lovemyvike]

Actually, from Mozer’s interview I got the impression that they are taking it to court. But it will probably be too late to attend even if they win.

This is such BS. I respect the IOC's position in that they want to try and establish "clean games". But to do all this NOW, knowing it's most likely too late to change anything is beyond reprehensible

 

[barbk]

Russia has continued to obstruct the investigation and it was only mid-November when WADA determined that RUSADA was still not compliant with the specifications:

"Those included Russia’s continued denial of the findings of a WADA-commissioned investigation that showed systemic and state-sponsored doping in the country; that the Russian government has not yet released electronic data and samples from the Moscow laboratory; that doping control officers be able to access Russian athletes training in closed cities for testing; and that RUSADA correct non-conformities found in a WADA audit.

“For these reasons, the CRC unanimously maintains its recommendation to the WADA Foundation Board that RUSADA should not be reinstated to the list of Code-compliant Signatories unless and until these remaining issues have been fully and satisfactorily resolved,” Jonathan Taylor, chair of the compliance review committee, wrote to Niggli on Friday."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...instate-russian-anti-doping-agency/868974001/

I doubt that the uninvited skaters were simply picked randomly. I'd like to know more, and I certainly hope that the athletes get some more information.

It probably would have been cleaner for the IOC to have simply banned participation in this Olympics for any Russian athletes who competed in Sochi, or even for the entire team. Harsh, but given the continued (and ridiculous) denials of state sponsored doping at this stage, better for eventual clean sport. Unfortunately, the IOC spent entirely too much time diddling around and this has all transpired far too late. Better for Russia and Russian athletes to have been told last August that they weren't going to compete. The International Weightlifting Federation didn't have a problem banning Russia and Bulgaria from weightlifting in Rio, and a bunch of other countries were banned from participation in the sport for a year.

Dropping this hammer on two figure skaters at this point in the season is unfortunate. I hope more information is released.

 

[starrynight]

Do any athletes they want to test even live in closed cities? As I understand those cities are used for manufacturing/research purposes closely linked to national security. I'm not suprised they don't want to risk security concerns surrounding these cities as anyone could be sent in under the guise of being a doping inspector.

I also couldn't imagine there'd be much of a training scene in these places.

 

[caseyedwards]

Do any athletes they want to test even live in closed cities? As I understand those cities are used for manufacturing/research purposes closely linked to national security. I'm not suprised they don't want to risk security concerns surrounding these cities as anyone could be sent in under the guise of being a doping inspector.

I also couldn't imagine there'd be much of a training scene in these places.

There was a story about one athlete who lived with her retired mother sometimes in the off season in closed city and who doping officials had some hassle getting to. So the solution was that the athlete move her mother out of the closed city or only visit her mother very briefly.

Russia has continued to obstruct the investigation and it was only mid-November when WADA determined that RUSADA was still not compliant with the specifications:

"Those included Russia’s continued denial of the findings of a WADA-commissioned investigation that showed systemic and state-sponsored doping in the country; that the Russian government has not yet released electronic data and samples from the Moscow laboratory; that doping control officers be able to access Russian athletes training in closed cities for testing; and that RUSADA correct non-conformities found in a WADA audit.

“For these reasons, the CRC unanimously maintains its recommendation to the WADA Foundation Board that RUSADA should not be reinstated to the list of Code-compliant Signatories unless and until these remaining issues have been fully and satisfactorily resolved,” Jonathan Taylor, chair of the compliance review committee, wrote to Niggli on Friday."
https://www.usatoday.com/story/spor...instate-russian-anti-doping-agency/868974001/

I doubt that the uninvited skaters were simply picked randomly. I'd like to know more, and I certainly hope that the athletes get some more information.

It probably would have been cleaner for the IOC to have simply banned participation in this Olympics for any Russian athletes who competed in Sochi, or even for the entire team. Harsh, but given the continued (and ridiculous) denials of state sponsored doping at this stage, better for eventual clean sport. Unfortunately, the IOC spent entirely too much time diddling around and this has all transpired far too late. Better for Russia and Russian athletes to have been told last August that they weren't going to compete. The International Weightlifting Federation didn't have a problem banning Russia and Bulgaria from weightlifting in Rio, and a bunch of other countries were banned from participation in the sport for a year.

Dropping this hammer on two figure skaters at this point in the season is unfortunate. I hope more information is released.

A huge problem is that people who believe everything Mclaren and rodchenkov say with the power to do things have later let chosen mild punishments! Not IPC though! They banned everyone! Didn’t care about clean athletes at all. People have said Bach and putin are best friends or Bach works for putin. If that’s so then he can be removed and a totally ban Russia person can be elected.

 

[Vash01]

Nina Mozer: We all know that Ksenia is clean and has a good name in this sport. And so does the IOC, otherwise they would have notified us about their motives not to invite an OGM to the Olympic Games in PyeongChang. She hasn't been accused in anything, as she has never been suspected by WADA or the IOC. We could have sent one more letter to the IOC (Russian figure skating federation had already sent two letter asking about both Stolbova and Bukin), but I'm practical enough and believe that such questions should be resolved in courts. But Ksenia is an "Olympic athlete from Russia" and that status doesn't allow her to appeal IOC's decision - she wasn't banned (unlike those 28 athletes), she just wasn't invited. Ksenia and Fedor are now preparing for the Worlds.



Guardian: IOC dismayed after doping bans on 28 Russian athletes overturned by Cas

Why are they dismayed? The CAS did their job. The IOC is still fumbling and taking it out on some innocent athletes.

This is such BS. I respect the IOC's position in that they want to try and establish "clean games". But to do all this NOW, knowing it's most likely too late to change anything is beyond reprehensible

ITA

It sounded like Stolbova/Klimov (according to Nina Mozer) accepted the ruling and are moving forward to Worlds. I would love nothing more than for them to get cleared to participate to the Olympics, but I would have to think this huge delay and disruption would really throw them off at this point. Or are you referring to others involved?

It breaks my heart to see them having to deal with this crap. They fought through injuries, but they are not in a position to fight the IOC. Sad.

 

[lala]

Go OAR! https://www.rt.com/sport/417743-neutral-russian-olympic-kit-ddvb-oar/

I don't think even now that the doping is good for an ice dancer or a figure skater. They build big muscle with it? I believe those dopings would be good what use before the competition. But that is very risky because they will be controlled after the competition.