IOC's decision: (clean) Russian athletes can compete under neutral flag at PyeongChang Olympics

BlueRidge said:
And failing.

I tend to be sympathetic to people working in institutions. I had a lot to say in defense of USFSA over the choices for the Olympic team. I'm not one who automatically thinks the people in authority are corrupt or totally incompetent.

But in this case, I think the IOC has harmed individual athletes for no defensible reason. And they don't deserve to be let off the hook of criticism just because its a tough job they are in charge of.
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The two skaters are victims of a decision designed to exclude a lot of dopers in endurance sports like cross-country skiing and biathlon. Many other athletes in those sports were robbed of their rightful medals. We don't KNOW what Stolbova and Bukin did, we are assuming they are innocent. But even if they are, two athletes, possibly unfairly, can't compete in our sport. Considering the IOC well could have banned the entire Russian team, I am not condemning them for trying to get to a compromise position.
 
PRlady said:
The two skaters are victims of a decision designed to exclude a lot of dopers in endurance sports like cross-country skiing and biathlon. Many other athletes in those sports were robbed of their rightful medals. We don't KNOW what Stolbova and Bukin did, we are assuming they are innocent. But even if they are, two athletes, possibly unfairly, can't compete in our sport. Considering the IOC well could have banned the entire Russian team, I am not condemning them for trying to get to a compromise position.
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The compromise position was banning Russia as a country. The banning of a handful of individual athletes in addition to that was gratuitous. I see no reason why they added on that extra sanction to this few athletes. I see no way it improves the situation from their perspective or anyone else's.

It was a bad decision pure and simple.

OTOH, the Olys are a crock of hooey and no one should give a fig about this joke of an event but I like these figure skaters and it matters to them so it bugs me.

ETA: this is just an aside but its a perfect illustration why what the IOC does by putting on the Olympics is not worthy of great respect. This is from the NY Times, an article on an Indian luger: "For more than two decades, he has zipped downhill faster than any other Asian competing in his sport. Will the 2018 Olympics bring his country glory?" The modern Olys were created in a time of nationalism and it rests on "bringing glory" to the "country" not the feats of the athletes. As such some countries act in egregious ways (doping, ignoring sexual abuse, etc) to get to that nationalistic glory. The whole thing rests on a terrible assumption of nationalism that we can no longer afford in the 21st Century, and which in fact undermines the supposed higher values of the "Games" themselves. And the IOC promotes this. That is their job.
 
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Well I like the Olympics a lot. I've had a lot of pleasure over the years of seeing many athletes give amazing performances under pressure. And I think banning a country's anthem and uniform is no big deal if every athlete gets to compete anyway, including many with a lot of evidence against them.

Picking and choosing the athletes was never going to be 100% fair or accurate but it's better than just a cosmetic country ban. Even with unintentional victims, if that's what they are.
 
PRlady said:
The CAS statement contradicts your conclusions. As a court, CAS can't "convict" without a preponderance of evidence and that's why they took pains to say that it DOESN'T mean those 28 athletes are innocent.

As a governing body, the IOC is free to impose that long list of criteria on athletes from a banned country, it's not a court. We all believe that Stolbova and Bukin were probably not invited on a technicality like medications without TUEs, because skaters really don't benefit from doping. But we don't know for sure, and in the meantime the IOC is trying for a balanced reaction to the biggest state-sponsored doping scandal in modern history.
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It was always going to be the case, the samples were said to be compromised and WADA destroyed samples taken after the Games. This was the best case for these 28 athletes. Some journalist did note for a while that there wasn't much evidence against athletes like Treytyakov. As a result, they were not disqualified. If you can't prove a case and then you shouldn't ban the athletes.

At present they are looking more and more like political puppets.
 
PRlady said:
Well I like the Olympics a lot. I've had a lot of pleasure over the years of seeing many athletes give amazing performances under pressure. And I think banning a country's anthem and uniform is no big deal if every athlete gets to compete anyway, including many with a lot of evidence against them.

Picking and choosing the athletes was never going to be 100% fair or accurate but it's better than just a cosmetic country ban. Even with unintentional victims, if that's what they are.
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Well you enjoy your Olympics. I am only going to enjoy my figure skating. Since its there, I wouldn't miss it. But I'm not impressed by it because it is part of a grotesque Oly spectacle only because its lovely in its own right.
 
PRlady said:
Well I like the Olympics a lot. I've had a lot of pleasure over the years of seeing many athletes give amazing performances under pressure. And I think banning a country's anthem and uniform is no big deal if every athlete gets to compete anyway, including many with a lot of evidence against them.

Picking and choosing the athletes was never going to be 100% fair or accurate but it's better than just a cosmetic country ban. Even with unintentional victims, if that's what they are.
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I love the Olympics because of the feeling of it, more than 2 weeks of sport, conventionnal peace and everything, and I always wondered what it would be like to just forget about your country for 1 second. It might not make any sense because you do the Olympics for your country in a way, but when you watch figure skating and people are switching countries all the time and you don't even root for people from your own country... I say ditch the flag ! :rofl: No but seriously, at some point it would be nice to have that kind of massive competition every 4 years... without the "nationalistic" aspect. Only sport, break all barriers ! :gallopin1
 
BlueRidge said:
yeah! this is exactly right! :lol:
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I have lost faith in the olympic movement -Jean-Luc Brassard

That is said, you are not the only one to have such an opinion of the big O. Jean-Luc Brassard, who won gold in moguls at the 1994 Olympics and now one of the team leaders for Canada has been very vocals about the big great circus that have become the Olympics. He even says we will see the end of the movement as it is now in less than 20 years. He talked about a meeting at the Rio games about transportations (of the athletes) but the only hands that were raised were from big papas wanting to know where they could park their private jet... Because 51 private jets in a same city onvolves a lot of planification. So there was another reunion for private jet owners to settle the problem... Who cared about athletes? Big guns who want to make money.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PspuDtLEhfI
 
Here is the NY Times article on the CAS decision:

Russian Athletes Win Appeals of Doping Bans

The International Olympic Committee’s handling of Russia’s systemic doping program has been plunged into disarray after sport’s top court overturned bans issued to 28 Russian athletes just days before the start of the Winter Games in Pyeongchang, South Korea.

The Court of Arbitration for Sport ruled Thursday that there was insufficient evidence that the athletes — including some medal winners — breached antidoping regulations at the 2014 Olympics in Sochi, Russia. The reversal means athletes deemed to have been part of an elaborate cheating scheme may yet compete in the Olympics. It is yet another blow to the credibility of the Olympic committee’s management of the doping affair.
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(bold added for those who need help getting it.)
 
I still enjoy the idea of the Olympics and I admit I get into the whole atmosphere of it, but I can't help but agree with BR and ChiquitaBanana. There is just so much wrong with it and I doubt athletes are the top priority for those in charge. It's being run by those who I believe are more about enjoying the benefits and privileges of being a ranking member of the IOC.

BlueRidge said:
Here is the NY Times article on the CAS decision:

Russian Athletes Win Appeals of Doping Bans



(bold added for those who need help getting it.)
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The IOC seems to have mishandled this situation completely and lost so much credibility.
 
PRlady said:
The two skaters are victims of a decision designed to exclude a lot of dopers in endurance sports like cross-country skiing and biathlon. Many other athletes in those sports were robbed of their rightful medals. We don't KNOW what Stolbova and Bukin did, we are assuming they are innocent. But even if they are, two athletes, possibly unfairly, can't compete in our sport. Considering the IOC well could have banned the entire Russian team, I am not condemning them for trying to get to a compromise position.
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The article posted says that according to the IOC even the athletes that were cleared may not be invited, depending on IOC's whim.
 
Carolla5501 said:
No it hasn't. The truth is the number of people actually following this who care, outside of Russia, is minor. Go ask people randomly about what's happening... I bet 99 out of 100 are going to have no idea!
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I'm not interested in random people, but those who actually follow what's going on. Try to take off your bias for a second and look at it as an objective observer. There's been many write-ups and critiques about how the IOC has handled this situation and now when you mention any future IOC decision regarding doping, those who have been paying attention and will continue to do so will now probably meet it with skepticism and think the IOC will eff it up in some way.

Just because you really do believe there was a widespread state-sanctioned doping scheme does not mean one has to think the IOC handled this situation properly or in the best way moving forward to ensure trust in the process. I think there has been an overzealousness because people within the org simply "know" these athletes were rightfully sanctioned and prevented from competing even if the evidence may have been flimsy. The IOC may have been correct, but there's a reason why court systems strive to go about things in the way that they do, in order to not lose credibility and trust in the process.

And for those that matter, we'll just have to see how this affects the Olympic movement. I'm not naive to think this alone would kill it because so long as money is to be made, it'll go on, but I have to think the way the IOC handled it has created unhappy parties on both sides and that has to affect it moving forward.
 
Carolla5501 said:
No it hasn't. The truth is the number of people actually following this who care, outside of Russia, is minor. Go ask people randomly about what's happening... I bet 99 out of 100 are going to have no idea!
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Why does this matter at all? Most people don't even know the IOC exists, let alone have an opinion about their level of competence. The awareness or lack thereof has no bearing on whether or not the IOC's credibility has been lost. All that matters is the opinion of those who are paying attention.
 
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IOC's credibility matters to stakeholders including the athletes. Its credibility also matters to sports anti-doping efforts, if by chance anyone cares about that.

And there are specific ways it matters to figure skating. Remember for example that the IOC played a significant role in pushing the ISU to adopt a new judging system after the 2002 Olympics.
 
Next hot issues: can the cleared athletes keep the medals and if Russia is going back to #1 in medal count for Sochi.

That whole thing should have been nipped in the bud back in 2011, when Rodchenkov and his sister where caught and arrested for illegal substance operation and an extortion set up, and not let it drag for years. Russians ended up covering up for Rodchenkov and sister to avoid int'l humiliation and WADA (and later IOC) did not have the balls to take precise measures at that time.... and so it dragged on and on and on... and now both sides in deep doo-doo... :rolleyes:
 
http://www.bbc.com/sport/winter-olympics/42909132
"Today I have found myself apologising to individual athletes who have had dreams, medals, money and most importantly, faith in sport, stolen from them," said Pengilly, the only IOC member to publicly oppose the IOC executive board's stance on Russia's inclusion in the Rio 2016 Olympics.
"They now think that you are better off cheating or getting your nation to establish a doping system because even if it is discovered, the consequences are minimal. Or, if you don't want to cheat, avoid elite sport like the plague."
 
WildRose said:
http://www.bbc.com/sport/winter-olympics/42909132
"Today I have found myself apologising to individual athletes who have had dreams, medals, money and most importantly, faith in sport, stolen from them," said Pengilly, the only IOC member to publicly oppose the IOC executive board's stance on Russia's inclusion in the Rio 2016 Olympics.
"They now think that you are better off cheating or getting your nation to establish a doping system because even if it is discovered, the consequences are minimal. Or, if you don't want to cheat, avoid elite sport like the plague."
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The real cheating is done to the clean Russian athletes who are now not invited to compete at the olympics.
 
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Domshabfan said:
The real cheating is done to the clean Russian athletes who are now not invited to compete at the olympics.
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Clean Russian athletes are being cheated by their own sporting bodies. You can feel sorry for them and clean non-Russian athletes. You can condemn the very obvious systematic doping Russia had/has in place and individual cases of doping by non-Russian athletes. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
 
allezfred said:
Clean Russian athletes are being cheated by their own sporting bodies. You can feel sorry for them and clean non-Russian athletes. You can condemn the very obvious systematic doping Russia had/has in place and individual cases of doping by non-Russian athletes. It doesn't have to be one or the other.
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I agree completely, however now we are in a situation where athletes who have their suspension revoked can't go to the olympics even after the CAS ruling. Some of the athletes are not even invited, many don't know exact answer... When athletes don't have the exact answer, it is very hard to fight a coherent appeal.
 
The thing about the CAS ruling was not that they said these athletes were clean. They simply said there wasn't enough evidence that they were doping to ban them. So they may have doped or they may be clean, but that remains to be seen. Either way we shouldn't be drawing any conclusions as to these athletes' status based on the CAS ruling.

I'm still curious about Bukin... There's nothing but conjecture at this point, so it's still confusing as to why he was not invited.
 
Forgive me for sounding like an idiot, (in my defense I'm exhausted, syringe feeding 2 sick cats hourly) but this ruling or latest release from the IOC still means no Stolbova or Bukin, correct?
 
Lovemyvike said:
Forgive me for sounding like an idiot, (in my defense I'm exhausted, syringe feeding 2 sick cats hourly) but this ruling or latest release from the IOC still means no Stolbova or Bukin, correct?
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This ruling referred only to Sochi athletes who were banned. It does not include Stolbova or Bukin.
 
Not one piece of evidence has been produced that connects the athletes to the ministry finding out their doping control numbers so they knew what bottles to tamper with! It’s an enormous missing piece of evidence! It’s almost the entire system! The athlete sending the ministry the number so they can send the number to rodchenkov. Not even rodchenkov has produced emails sent from ministry with doping numbers.
 
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