Increasingly likely “Russia” will be banned from Pyeongchang

[BittyBug]

Suppose a Russian team won a medal and it turned out only half the athletes used illegal substances. Would you take the medal away from the entire team or just the athletes who cheated?

I'm going by memory, but I'm pretty sure that if an individual that is part of a team is caught doping, the team is disqualified (thinking of track & field relay races).

 

[VGThuy]

I think the whole team gets disqualified because you really cannot separate the banned members' performance and contributions from the team's ultimate result.

 

[SmallFairy]

The entire team loses the medal. Usain Bolt lost his relay medal from the 2008 Olympics because one of his teammates was subsequently found to have been doping.

That's true. But what if one or two players on a hockey team is caught doping? Do the entire team loose their medal? I don't really remember, but wasn't there a case at some championships (or Sochi?) were someone (a Swede?) was caught using something, but it didn't affect the team? I will see if I can find the articles about it.

 

[VGThuy]

That's true. But what if one or two players on a hockey team is caught doping? Do the entire team loose their medal? I don't really remember, but wasn't there a case at some championships (or Sochi?) were someone (a Swede?) was caught using something, but it didn't affect the team? I will see if I can find the articles about it.

I was thinking about that too, but was that Swedish member benched the entire time? Surely he participated in the plays that helped them win a medal.

 

[morqet]

Yes. It's not a discipline. It's all the skaters. This is exactly what I mean. Where is the empathy for all the young Russians, many of whom, weren't even skating as seniors 4 years ago. Moreover, figure skating hasn't been implicated in the Sochi debacle (in spite of many who spitefully wanted Sotnikova's medal removed). It's not the medals. Others can be happy if they want. Can celebrate if their favorites win, especially, if they win when they'd have likely not if the Russian skaters were there. As for me, I want no part of skating anymore if they aren't. I couldn't care less if the skate as Russians or as Martians. I just want them to be allowed to compete. My respect for some posters has really been lessened just reading the happiness in this thread. Everybody should be sick that this happened, and is continuing to happen rather than just repeat the OPs mantra of ban them.

I understand this, and I would be really disappointed particularly for Medvedeva, who has been so dominant, and deserves to be able to compete at the very highest level. But the IOC and WADA have tried a more lenient approach with Russia previously. The measures trialed in 2016 have made no impact - WADA still can't get access to the samples at RUSADA's Moscow lab, there's so much denial of wrongdoing from Russian officials when all the evidence points to a state sponsored program. And more and more positives keep turning up as samples from 2008-2014 are retested. So what does the IOC do now to ensure that the system is fair for everyone? Partial bans made no difference.

 

[Vash01]

I understand this, and I would be really disappointed particularly for Medvedeva, who has been so dominant, and deserves to be able to compete at the very highest level. But the IOC and WADA have tried a more lenient approach with Russia previously. The measures trialed in 2016 have made no impact - WADA still can't get access to the samples at RUSADA's Moscow lab, there's so much denial of wrongdoing from Russian officials when all the evidence points to a state sponsored program. And more and more positives keep turning up as samples from 2008-2014 are retested. So what does the IOC do now to ensure that the system is fair for everyone? Partial bans made no difference.

Why only Russia though? What was the IOC doing when China was cheating on a regular basis at the summer Olympics? WADA is the least trustworthy organization as we have seen, so why give them so much power?

I don't think you really care about Medvedeva, since you want the entire country removed from the Olympics.

 

[SmallFairy]

That's true. But what if one or two players on a hockey team is caught doping? Do the entire team loose their medal? I don't really remember, but wasn't there a case at some championships (or Sochi?) were someone (a Swede?) was caught using something, but it didn't affect the team? I will see if I can find the articles about it.

ETA here: http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-doping-nicklas-backstrom-20150115-story.html

Swedish hockey player Nicklas Bäckström had taken some flu medication and was caught in a doping test. Just before the final he was removed from the line-up and didn't play. Sweden won silver, and got to keep their medal, even though Bäckström had played in previous games, on Sweden way to the final. I think Bäckström was later "cleared", he had asked his doctor, and he said the med would be no problem.

 

[VGThuy]

Why only Russia though? What was the IOC doing when China was cheating on a regular basis at the summer Olympics? WADA is the least trustworthy organization as we have seen, so why give them so much power?

I don't think you really care about Medvedeva, since you want he entire country removed from the Olympics.

Because Russia is the one being investigated. You may bring up some good points but this constant deflecting does nothing to DEFEND Russia. As for WADA there are new reports and it has now become a case that cannot be ignored or swept away because of “evil” WADA.

 

[SmallFairy]

This whole thing is just so sad. As stated previously by several here; this case has no winners. I want every top skater present in Korea, skating their best. Of course, I only want clean athletes in Korea. But I can't get out of my head that in the middle of all this mess, and whistle blowers, and info back and forth, and every day new athletes being banned, and endless articles about what has been going on for years, and in Sochi, and after Sochi, and to this day....the only sample that has been cleared is Sotnikova's. She's a figure skater.

 

[Willin]

It is possible to think that a cheat like Gatlin should not be allowed to compete and that Russia should face sanctions for its pretty obvious state supported doping programme, while at the same time feel sorry for clean Russian athletes and those from other countries who missed out on an Olympic podium moment. Not sure why this has to be one or the other.

I mean, this is where I fall on the issue - that the sprinters were fairly punished by their suspensions, Russia should face sanctions, and I feel bad for the Russian athletes (particularly those like the figure skaters who were not involved in the scandal, or like Medvedeva were too young to compete in Sochi).

BUT, one or two athletes doping in a sport where doping is done by nearly all the top athletes dope (just look at the list of cycling doping scandals, and the list of top 100m times invalidated for doping) is very different than a state sponsored doping program. I just don't get why she keeps bringing them up since they're such different issues (sport-sponsored vs. state sponsored). Especially since state sponsored is the only type of doping that matters here.

 

[Winnipeg]

A winner might be seen as the integrity of sport?

 

[fan]

But will the Russian athletes still be allowed to compete as neutrals? (According to her?)

she thinks they'll be allowed to compete as independents, but putin will pull them.

 

[caseyedwards]

You know that scene where skaters skate around with their flag? Of course! But Medvedeva Would be banned from doing that!

 

[IceAlisa]

Everything points to the neutral flag and no anthem alternative. I do hope that the Russian government doesn't boycott and that the figure skaters show up. I can't imagine the ladies without Med and Kolyada while hardly an OGM contender, still a great presence in men.

Alas, I don't see how Putin will allow this. I hope he does if it comes to be.

 

[wickedwitch]

And what about the dreams of all the very innocent kids and young athletes who did not get their Olympic moment, even though they competed, because they didn’t cheat but had to watch while someone who did got their medal, their glory, their moment, their reward for a lifetime of sacrifice. Have you ever watched an athlete get their medal years later because they were robbed by a drug cheat? There is no stadium or arena full of cheering fans, no cameras, no front page headlines. It’s heartbreaking - because their victory and all that it would have meant, was stolen from them, and as much as well meaning organizers may try - there is absolutely no way to get it back - ever.

For me, banning completely innocent athletes is worse than athletes getting medals later than they deserve. Yes, it sucks to not have the crowd and media attention, but those athletes still get the Olympic experience and vindication of knowing they earned a medal. The innocent athletes banned get none of that.

In general, I feel punishing the innocent is almost never the best decision. But it's at least somewhat reasonable when by punishing the innocent many lives may be saved. Lives won't be saved by banning innocent athletes.

 

[sus2850]

The German experts on the other hand seem to believe that there will be no ban tomorrow (mainly based on the argument of Bach and Putin being close).

 

[kittyjake5]

Everything points to the neutral flag and no anthem alternative. I do hope that the Russian government doesn't boycott and that the figure skaters show up. I can't imagine the ladies without Med and Kolyada while hardly an OGM contender, still a great presence in men.

Alas, I don't see how Putin will allow this. I hope he does if it comes to be.

I am also worried about Putin not accepting the neutrality alternative. I feel so bad for the Russian athletes such a tough
situation for them. Well we will know the decision from the IOC tomorrow.

 

[caseyedwards]

The German experts on the other hand seem to believe that there will be no ban tomorrow (mainly based on the argument of Bach and Putin being close).

Can Bach even keep his job if he does something pro Russia again?! He can’t upset every other nation in the Olympics again.

 

[caseyedwards]

IF no Russian is allowed to acknowledge being from Russia or anything Russian of course Medvedeva would be banned from skating to Anna karenina

 

[IceAlisa]

IF no Russian is allowed to acknowledge being from Russia or anything Russian of course Medvedeva would be banned from skating to Anna karenina

say no to drugs

 

[missing]

Philip Hersh tweeted a link to this article.

 

[Karen-W]

IF no Russian is allowed to acknowledge being from Russia or anything Russian of course Medvedeva would be banned from skating to Anna karenina

Well, no, the ban on everything Russian wouldn't include the music skaters have selected for their competitive programs, I would think. Although it does raise the interesting question of whether or not a skater or team would be allowed to use the Russian national anthem for an SP or FP.

 

[IceAlisa]

Considering the fug uniforms Russia came up with for the team, the athletes may be better off wearing Nike.

 

[BlueRidge]

The BBC article suggests that Putin would boycott, if the decision were for Russian athletes to compete as neutrals, stating that would be because of politics because people would want him to do that. That seems weird to me, wouldn't it be just the opposite that Russians would want their athletes to compete and be angry if Putin would not let them?

 

[ks777]

For me, banning completely innocent athletes is worse than athletes getting medals later than they deserve. Yes, it sucks to not have the crowd and media attention, but those athletes still get the Olympic experience and vindication of knowing they earned a medal. The innocent athletes banned get none of that.

In general, I feel punishing the innocent is almost never the best decision. But it's at least somewhat reasonable when by punishing the innocent many lives may be saved. Lives won't be saved by banning innocent athletes.

I don't. I don't feel sorry for any Russian athletes, innocent or guilty. The Russian government have no intention of getting rid of a state sponsored doping system so why should I feel sorry for them, fcuk that.

 

[Lanie]

If there is a state sponsored doping program the country should be banned, no matter what country it is. It is awful for the clean athletes, but where do you draw the line? Just let it happen again and again? This should have been dealt with before not at the 11th hour before these Olympics. I have a feeling nothing will happen--just more slaps on the wrist.

 

[IceAlisa]

If there is a state sponsored doping program the country should be banned, no matter what country it is. It is awful for the clean athletes, but where do you draw the line? Just let it happen again and again? This should have been dealt with before not at the 11th hour before these Olympics. I have a feeling nothing will happen--just more slaps on the wrist.

I think that allowing the clean athletes to compete under a neutral flag is a good middle of the road alternative. They still get to compete but the country that sponsored doping will not be honored.

The BBC article suggests that Putin would boycott, if the decision were for Russian athletes to compete as neutrals, stating that would be because of politics because people would want him to do that. That seems weird to me, wouldn't it be just the opposite that Russians would want their athletes to compete and be angry if Putin would not let them?

My knee jerk reaction was that he would outright ban everyone but on further thinking, he may not. His RP peeps may be able to spin it so that not all face is lost and like you said, the athletes compete angry.

 

[caseyedwards]

Well, no, the ban on everything Russian wouldn't include the music skaters have selected for their competitive programs, I would think. Although it does raise the interesting question of whether or not a skater or team would be allowed to use the Russian national anthem for an SP or FP.

Seems like a HUGE loophole to me!

The BBC article suggests that Putin would boycott, if the decision were for Russian athletes to compete as neutrals, stating that would be because of politics because people would want him to do that. That seems weird to me, wouldn't it be just the opposite that Russians would want their athletes to compete and be angry if Putin would not let them?

All the athletes would be under very strict gag order and behavior controls. It would be horrendous for all of them!

I don't. I don't feel sorry for any Russian athletes, innocent or guilty. The Russian government have no intention of getting rid of a state sponsored doping system so why should I feel sorry for them, fcuk that.

This is an issue! What if Neutrality doesn’t fix all the problems? And by what date is it supposed to fix all the problems.

 

[HH1234]

I don't. I don't feel sorry for any Russian athletes, innocent or guilty. The Russian government have no intention of getting rid of a state sponsored doping system so why should I feel sorry for them, fcuk that.

Well the Japanese ladies aren’t going to get a third spot either way.

 

[IceAlisa]

All the athletes would be under very strict gag order and behavior controls. It would be horrendous for all of them!

I've heard Nike is designing gags to go with the neutral uniform.