How much is too much?

[misskarne]

A good point, but if you can, please do provide screenshots of the tweets that Adam retweeted. If they were negative and catty comments by his fans against his competitors, it certainly was in poor taste and a lapse in judgment on Adam's part to approve by retweeting.

IMO, something ceases to be a lapse in judgement when it occurs twice, separated by several weeks in which he had plenty of time to think about it.

And as those were from 2015 and Adam is a rather prolific tweeter, it will be difficult to find, but I could give it a try. It was discussed here and actually received plenty of justification here, particularly for the WTT selection.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Ah well, as I said, it will be interesting to see exactly what was said in the tweets: Were they defamatory and dismissive of Adam's competitors, or simply questioning why Adam was not chosen for WTT and why he did not win Nationals in 2015? It was a very close and difficult decision for the judges. I love both Adam and Jason, and I was torn in both directions that year. It's very hard when you love rival skaters -- happy for one, sad for the other. A similar situation happened for me at the Olympics in ice dance.

 

[misskarne]

^^ Ah well, as I said, it will be interesting to see exactly what was said in the tweets: Were they defamatory and dismissive of Adam's competitors, or simply questioning why Adam was not chosen for WTT and why he did not win Nationals in 2015? It was a very close and difficult decision for the judges. I love both Adam and Jason, and I was torn in both directions that year. It's very hard when you love rival skaters -- happy for one, sad for the other. A similar situation happened for me at the Olympics in ice dance.

Funny how this works, isn't it? Adam retweets catty remarks and he's all "sassy and cute" and "calling the USFS out!" but the very next year when the result is actually wrong nobody fcuking cares because hey, it's "only Max" who got screwed over. Didn't see Max rolling his eyes at the camera or retweeting catty remarks, did we?

Found the thread. Discussion of Adam's unsportsmanlike behaviour starts here, but the whinging and moaning from FSUers about Max's selection starts some two pages before.

 

[aftershocks]

^^ Okay, I'll take a look. Whatever went down that Adam might regret, it's clear that Adam must have spoken about it privately to Max who obviously does not hold grudges. Max made a point of joyously hugging and congratulating Adam at 2016 U.S. Nationals when Max himself had been so close to winning again, but didn't.


ETA:
Eh, unfortunately I wasn't able to access that linked page. It must be archived in a place that requires certain privileges to access.

 

[Willin]

@misskarne Ah, so it is a Max thing.

I've heard rumors about the personality of many a skater, but from Adam I've only heard things like "he's so nice!", "everyone loves him!", and "he's so supportive of everyone!". Frankly, I've never heard a bad word about his sportsmanship or attitude towards other skaters - even ones he has reason not to support (homophobic ones in particular). I can't view the thread you linked to (or find the tweets in question), so I can't say what that incident was about or if you have made a fair representation of the situation.

Looking through his twitter, I've seen exactly 0 attacks towards USFS and 0 attacks at anyone that didn't come for him first (or were otherwise put themselves out there for criticism).

 

[misskarne]

Max made a point of joyously hugging and congratulating Adam at 2016 U.S. Nationals when Max himself had been so close to winning again, but didn't.

Yes, see the difference? Adam thinks he's screwed by the judges, he rolls his eyes at the camera and retweets "wuzrobbed" comments. Max is actually screwed by the judges, he hugs everyone and blames himself. Adam misses selection for a team, he retweets "wuzrobbed" remarks that also are unfavourable to the person selected ahead of him. Jason and Max miss selection for a team, they tweet best wishes and encourage the people who were chosen.

@misskarne Ah, so it is a Max thing.

No. It's a hypocrisy thing. Adam and his fans made such a big deal out of supposedly being robbed in 2015 even though he made plenty of mess-ups himself in that event but then funnily enough, he doesn't see the judging as an issue the next year even though he patently didn't deserve to win. People hammer Jason to death about the lack of quad and completely ignore that his success rate is barely any worse than Adam's and Adam's been making attempts for a lot longer.

 

[overedge]

Most of the time, these people that are busy putting others down/taking it further than that have absolutely no idea how the scoring works or who any skaters are besides their favorite Skater A. A much broader example of this was the 2010 Olympics, when Johnny Weir skated 'cleanly' and placed way outside the medals. That didn't stop many news organizations and four-year fans from proclaiming that he was robbed because he was gay/too flamboyant. But they didn't seem to know *anything* about how any of the other men skated on that night.

Weir didn't exactly help the situation by claiming that there was an unwritten norm in the sport that only one North American could be on the men's podium. So when Lysacek placed in the top three, that meant Weir wasn't going to get a medal no matter how well he skated

I totally agree with you about batsh*t crazy and/or uninformed fans, but IMO some skaters have fanned the flames either by saying inaccurate things themselves, or by letting inaccurate information from elsewhere go unchallenged.

 

[bardtoob]

A much broader example of this was the 2010 Olympics, when Johnny Weir skated 'cleanly' and placed way outside the medals. That didn't stop many news organizations and four-year fans from proclaiming that he was robbed because he was gay/too flamboyant. But they didn't seem to know *anything* about how any of the other men skated on that night. It's no different from the hardcore fans of one skater/one nation who don't bother to pay attention to any of the skating past when their favorite(s) are on the ice/only watch their Youtube clips after the event.

That's true for every fs scoring system.

Weir didn't exactly help the situation by claiming that there was an unwritten norm in the sport that only one North American could be on the men's podium. So when Lysacek placed in the top three, that meant Weir wasn't going to get a medal no matter how well he skated

Yeah, it didn't help, but it was some what true.

 

[aftershocks]

Adam and his fans

I get that you don't particularly like Adam Rippon. Still please don't generalize, because it was not all of Adam's fans involved in the tweeting and 'wuzrobbed' comments. Personally, I felt bad for Adam in 2015, because I did feel he deserved better scores in the sp that year at U.S. Nationals. In 2016, I thought Max would win and I would have been as happy for Max winning as I was for Adam (though I was surprised and pleased for Adam pulling out the victory that year).

Yeah, none of us are perfect. Neither do any of us always have perfect thoughts and faultless impulses.

Adam's been making attempts for a lot longer.

I don't think that's accurate just because Adam is older than Jason. In any case, who may have made more quad attempts over a certain number of years has no bearing on anything in particular, except for how you are apparently constructing it and perceiving it in your mind, for whatever reason.

 

[overedge]

Yeah, it didn't help, but it was some what true.

What part of it is even close to being true? Lysacek was definitely the US man getting the push at the time, but the claim about the unwritten rule of only one US man on the podium is BS.

 

[berthesghost]

What part of it is even close to being true? Lysacek was definitely the US man getting the push at the time, but the claim about the unwritten rule of only one US man on the podium is BS.

If I had a dollar for every time someone on the internet emphatically stressed that insiders who have been involved in the sport at the highest level for decades have no effing clue what they are talking about, I could retire to paradise.

Personally, I do firmly believe that there is a understanding among the federations that should all skate well, the medals should be spread around and “shared” by the continents and or nations.

Three things usually impede that:
1. Not everyone skating their best
2. The big 3 (Russia, Canada and USA) dominating skating. Japan and China are catching up, but not across all 4 disciplines.
3. The other habit I’m convinced exists despite it not being written down anywhere: if at all possible, give it to the home town skater.

My first worlds live was Dortmund, and it really did seem like every other day a German skater or team was coming out of no where to capture a bronze.

But of course personal bias is hard to overcome. S&N will forever be “wuz robbed” of oly bronze in my eyes, but I just have a natural preference for Russian pairs over Canadian pairs in general, so there’s that

 

[el henry]

Let me take this away from Max.... @misskarne is absolutely right about Adam’s tweets in 2015/2016? Unclear on exact years.....

I shouldn’t have to go through this, but I will, I like Adam, I love his social stands, I like his skating, and I have even stood up for Disco Diva Adam. Dismissing what I have to say as “Adam hating”, well, I don’t think so Tim.

I remember those Adam retweets because I was so taken aback by them and I felt they were so immature. As I said then, and I don’t have access to those tweets either, cry in your beer or to your best friends if you must, indeed you should, but retweeting “Adam wuzrobbed” is a very bad look. It’s bad for the skin.

Adam may be the sweetest guy in all creation, but the retweets were a mistake and if they emboldened some of his more vitriolic supporters (I didn’t even think of that), that would be a shame.

I think Adam is in a much better place now, and I don’t mean fame

 

[GreatLakesGal]

karne's posts about Max reminded me of something that happened at the 2016 Autumn Classic.

Max finished third, behind Yuzuru and Misha Ge. During the medal ceremony, Misha was all over Yu while Max was being his usual polite self. Misha was so aggressive/possessive that at one point it looked to me like Max was in serious danger of being pushed off the podium; fortunately, Yu put his arm around Max and pulled him in just in time.

Max seems to me to be a genuinely good guy. I wish him well.

 

[Willin]

@GreatLakesGal I think Max, Adam, Jason, and most of the top US men are genuinely very nice guys. I'm going to miss them when they retire! I already miss Max. I hope he continues to do something in skating. Maybe he'll join the USFSA board of directors or something with that finance experience.

@el henry I don't think it's wrong to say those retweets were wrong (just that I haven't seen them at all, so I can't form an opinion myself), I just don't exactly trust the source who's citing them...

 

[VGThuy]

If Adam did indeed retweet less-than-gracious responses to him not winning Nationals and to him not being invited to WTT over other skaters, then I agree it is certainly not a good look. Not to make excuses, but it's been four years so he may not act that way now. Also, maybe Adam was going through a lot of financial and other pressures where he was feeling he seriously needed to make teams or win things because his career wasn't going in the way he wanted it to. Again, not an excuse, but people under duress or who feel desperate don't always act gracious because of external and internal pressures. Either way, it was obvious that he was feeling slighted by the federation as he was second at Nationals and was the second ranked American man at Worlds, placed in the top ten there, but then passed over and not by third ranked American Farris, but for Max. He was probably fearful that that was a sign of things to come or he felt it was one incident in a long line of slights he probably felt he was experiencing with the USFS. I still don't think he should have retweeted or liked unkind tweets that basically put Max down, but he probably wasn't in the mood to act rational at that point in time. Also, wasn't WTT invitations determined by season/world rankings anyway? It's not like the USFS had much control over that and so this wasn't really a slight if that was the case.

 

[katmari]

Let me take this away from Max.... @misskarne is absolutely right about Adam’s tweets in 2015/2016? Unclear on exact years.....

I remember it too and was disappointed in Adam's reaction. I did take the time to find an actual tweet Adam liked after Jason Brown won the 2015 Nationals:

https://twitter.com/jamiemarich/status/559480370488700930
@Adaripp robbed of a national title. Period. #NC2015

It's all water under the bridge now, and I'm sure Adam has changed since winning his own National title, but it was not a stellar example of good sportsmanship.

Going back to the original point of the thread, "how much is too much" ... When an athlete likes/retweets "wuz robbed" comments and that causes their more rabid fans to react negatively toward a competitor, is that too much?

 

[berthesghost]

I love that we’re angsting over what a 20something yo athlete may or may not have retweeted years ago considering the gown man who we elected to lead our nation
Unless someone unearths a tweet where Adam claims Max had blood coming out his wherever, then I’m here for this

 

[marifran]

Could not agree more with all of you.

Could it be feasable for an admin to organize a PETITION for FSU members to sign that would be sent to the ISU and level headed websites ? Certainlyly useless to stop this issue but it could at least create some buzz for the athletes to know how thousands of real skating affecionados appreciate them all.
Something like :" We FSU users and skating admirers do state that we value all athletes and are horrified by ..."
(sorry my english is not great)

I was chocked by C.Brenan's article about Alina Zagitova after the Olympics. How does a grown up woman dare to bash a 15 years old talented girl who has done nothing but work ad nauseam under a robotic coach tutelage ? Blame COP, the coach, the parents even but not the child. The article showed an adult moraly harassing a teenager just like in US gymnastic recently. If I had been the parents I would have threatened Brenan of legal action and claim for public written apologies.

 

[Willin]

@marifran That's one of the things that bugs me most about attacks on a young athlete: very few of the choices they're making are their own. Especially for Zagitova and the skater that did Big Spender (Trusova?), those were their coaches choices and I really doubt they had any say at all in the decisions. So while the choices were questionable it's much more appropriate to blame the coaches, as they were the ones making that questionable choice.

But I don't think that they have any legal grounds to sue. In the US you can say a great many things, but very few are actual grounds to sue. Criticizing a teenager makes you look like a bad person, but it doesn't cause the other person any damages or break any laws.

 

[Bellanca]

About fans being used as proxies for skaters, I also think being mindful of perspective helps too. For some people, they can't stand the way fans of one skater/team treats their rivals and can come up with so many examples of bad behavior. And yet, the ones being accused of bad behavior see their skater/team as being victims and how they are constantly under attack by fans of their rivals and can come up with their own examples. So everybody thinks the other side acts worse than their side.

The skaters are the victims when a rabid fan base is hell-bent on continuing to despise and disparage them for simply having committed the crime of defeating a rival. Many of these skaters have been continuously belittled, berated and shamelessly harassed while their achievements are aggressively minimized by their detractors in such a way as to suggest nothing more than bitterness and resentment from a portion of the fan base. Also, these fans have fooled themselves into believing their disappointment, frustration and the desire to lash out at the athletes' expense is okay while always finding a way to justify their own behavior. The viciousness and the desire for ott revenge by some fans aimed directly at the skaters is such a waste of time - and it won't change anything.

It's all the above that I don’t particularly care for.

 

[marifran]

@Willin quite true yet moral harassement and abuse as well as diffamation of youngsters are hot topics in sports right now. US lawyers are also extremely efficient for creating fuss on non grounded matters. Threatening of legal action might be enough to frighten people. Anyway ...

 

[el henry]

I love that we’re angsting over what a 20something yo athlete may or may not have retweeted years ago considering the gown man who we elected to lead our nation
Unless someone unearths a tweet where Adam claims Max had blood coming out his wherever, then I’m here for this

Your definition of angst is way different than mine

All the posters chiming in about wuzrobbing in the world, or who said they wuzrobbed, or when they said it, isn't *angsty*. (I think skaters may or may not feel angst, but I cannot speak for them) But until we have actual skating to opine about, it's what's we have. And there's nothing more wonderful to me than repeating an opinion I've already expressed. I don't even need to think about it again

 

[aftershocks]

... the skater that did Big Spender (Trusova?), those were their coaches choices and I really doubt they had any say at all in the decisions. So while the choices were questionable it's much more appropriate to blame the coaches

Of course, and I already indicated the same. There's no reason to blame Trusova. That's the point, as Trusova is the one who was being put on display skating to sexually suggestive lyrics. But as I said, the song has been used a lot, and Trusova's coaches may not have paid much attention to the lyrics -- as I mentioned previously, something may have been lost in translation semantically, and/ or culturally.