How much is too much?

[Bellanca]

I had been at Jackie Wong’s website http://www.rockerskating.com/ to see what he had going on, and I was reading some Twitter content from followers or people who happened upon his site, and they had this exchange:

https://twitter.com/rockerskating/status/1008147429655539713
https://twitter.com/rockerskating/status/1008414102262296576

So, this piqued my off-season curiosity, as I have also noticed an unfortunate rise and ongoing trend of deplorable behavior picking up steam by fans (notably the last couple of quads) relating to comments that appear designed to denigrate, disparage and insult our young athletes…

Sarcastic, cynical posts about the skater in question being nothing more than a “clueless child,” “a baby,” or worse… And let’s not forget that some of these comments are/were made courtesy of their own teammates or competitors, e.g., AW and her now infamous (although supposedly meant to be a joke) sonograms crack, possibly forgetting momentarily that she too was their age not so long before she made that (sonogram) remark. BTW, skating is not the only sport that has teenage champions.

It’s as if youthful athletes have no business succeeding in this sport, unless, and until they meet the magical and acceptable age requirements placed upon them in the minds of many fans regardless of the fact the rules allow for them to compete.

My take is that they are the future of the sport, and they must start somewhere, someplace, so if by chance they win it all from the get-go at such a young age, why not celebrate that for what it is? They’ve earned and deserved it just like anyone else. It’s an incredible, outstanding accomplishment achieved at an age most people could only dream of.

Yet, it suddenly feels like a free-for-all environment to criticize them for it which has led me to start this thread that goes straight to the heart of the matter and asks the fans directly why this is.

Here’s a series of questions relating to the topic:

1. Why is there such a desire among fans (putting aside journalists and bloggers for the moment because they usually have an agenda) to behave this way? Why this insatiable need or desire to tear down and criticize these youthful athletes based on their age (in most cases) especially when they are successful, and they win?

2. What is it that makes a fan want to lash out at the skater? Is it simply dissatisfaction with the sport in general that provokes the base? And can any realistic amount of changing or fine-tuning the rules help?

3. We have parents that participate and comment on this forum, are you okay with skaters (under the age of 19, for example) being criticized in such a manner?

4. Do the fans feel like an athlete is fair game because they are considered a public figure, and so, therefore, they open themselves up for criticism and whatever else might come their way based solely on that? Or, does Jackie Wong make a valid point?

 

[misskarne]

A certain group of fans decided to send death threats and abuse - and continue to send them - to a then-17 year old minor just because she was the best on the night.

Too many people found this completely acceptable because they did not agree with the result.

That certain group of fans' hatred spread to all ladies of the 17 year old's nationality. To the point that they spam JGP live chats calling 13 year olds sluts and whores.

Now, I'm not blaming them for everything, and there are plenty of groups that are pretty bad. But to me, the rise in really uncouth fan behaviour is directly related to that reaction.

 

[rfisher]

It seems a lot of the people responding to Wong's initial tweet have reading comprehension issues or simply want to justify what they say. He didn't say constructive criticism was inappropriate. It was the way the critical remarks were made. A lot of people don't understand what constructive criticism is. It offers suggestions as how to correct the issue, not just making catty remarks. Very few fans actually can offer constructive criticism unless they are skaters or really study the physics of the sport.

One can comment that they don't particularly like a program, but they don't have to insult the skater on a personal level. I couldn't care less how old a skater is. If they can do the elements, they can do them. I don't particularly care if they'll be able to do them five years from now. Who even knows if a skater will still be skating in five years? Lots of things can happen. They should be judged on what they do today. On the ice in any particular competition, not what they might do at some vague time in the future.

But the biggest issue is a lot of people think they're funnier, wittier, and smarter than they actually are.

 

[Scrufflet]

Good on Jackie Wong for speaking up! I find it tragic that this anger/outrage is the go-to knee jerk reaction in so many areas of life. Critical thinking is scorned and many who don't have any opinions feel the need to express themselves anyway. A pathetic need for affirmation (put someone else down and that lifts you up?). I hate it.

If I had a dinner party and one guest misbehaved, that person would be told to behave or leave. All my guests would expect a harmonious ambience and I would want to give it to them. That badly behaved guest would probably say "I'm just expressing myself" or "I have a right to my opinion". Well OK but not if you make other people uncomfortable and destroy the collective mood! So leave!

I think one mistake we make is engaging in argument with these people. We can't win because we're just giving them that attention that they crave, but at our expense. And the result is empty. When they're done they will go on to suck the energy out of someone else. I think Jackie did the right thing: he made his point and stuck to his guns but I hope he doesn't let it go on for too long.

The older I get, the less time and energy do I have for this garbage. I no longer put up with such behaviour in everyday life. A useful method is to say "JUST STOP" and repeat. It works!

It is really hard to do this online I know. I avoid many forum threads when the slinging gets really nasty. So good on Jackie for standing up for the skaters! Let's offer him and others like him our support.

 

[Seerek]

Unfortunately (and perhaps not surprisingly), it gets really personal when it comes to individual sports - anyone who follows multiple sports (winter/summer) knows that the social media environment in these sports really isn't that much better (and in some cases, worse, when sports betting comes into play).

 

[skateboy]

This has been the worst from Yunabots who, to this day, cannot accept that Adelina won in Sochi (which baffles me, as I've always felt that Carolina deserved gold, but whatever). It doesn't matter to these people that all three ladies on the podium skated well. Their hatred for Adelina (and, more recently, Medvedeva) knows no bounds. The comments are as disgusting as ever. It's despicable.

 

[tony]

Yet, it suddenly feels like a free-for-all environment to criticize them for it which has led me to start this thread that goes straight to the heart of the matter and asks the fans directly why this is.

Here’s a series of questions relating to the topic:

1. Why is there such a desire among fans (putting aside journalists and bloggers for the moment because they usually have an agenda) to behave this way? Why this insatiable need or desire to tear down and criticize these youthful athletes based on their age (in most cases) especially when they are successful, and they win?

2. What is it that makes a fan want to lash out at the skater? Is it simply dissatisfaction with the sport in general that provokes the base? And can any realistic amount of changing or fine-tuning the rules help?

3. We have parents that participate and comment on this forum, are you okay with skaters (under the age of 19, for example) being criticized in such a manner?

4. Do the fans feel like an athlete is fair game because they are considered a public figure, and so, therefore, they open themselves up for criticism and whatever else might come their way based solely on that? Or, does Jackie Wong make a valid point?

1) I think at some point, most (I'm not saying all) skating fans that are so involved in following the sport become very opinionated and want their voices to be heard-- in this sport it happens to be on Twitter feeds or Youtube comments or message boards. And for whatever reason, the direction that 'voicing opinions' has gone since the Internet really started to boom is that people are able to hide behind a username and feel that they can say whatever they want. This extents far past the world of figure skating. I think it just becomes very easy in skating because this is one sport where every little detail is under the magnifying glass, and in the end, the result is based on the opinions of a panel of judges who sometimes seem to have little to no training.

2) Goes back to 1- in a time when 'everyone has a voice' (could even read as 'everyone is an expert'), they want to be heard. And I don't think it's a dissatisfaction with the sport. Most of the time, these people that are busy putting others down/taking it further than that have absolutely no idea how the scoring works or who any skaters are besides their favorite Skater A. A much broader example of this was the 2010 Olympics, when Johnny Weir skated 'cleanly' and placed way outside the medals. That didn't stop many news organizations and four-year fans from proclaiming that he was robbed because he was gay/too flamboyant. But they didn't seem to know *anything* about how any of the other men skated on that night. It's no different from the hardcore fans of one skater/one nation who don't bother to pay attention to any of the skating past when their favorite(s) are on the ice/only watch their Youtube clips after the event.

3) doesn't apply to me

4) I do think that anything we do in life can be open to judgment, whether we ask for it or not. But there is a constructive way to go about it or a 'nicer' way of putting things-- ie. 'I didn't really care for that' or 'that wasn't my favorite' versus extremely nasty comments. I definitely can say I wasn't always so nice with my comments (I've been on this board for what, 18 years now? ), but I grew up and remembered how hard the athletes are working to be successful. When it comes to someone like Dave Lease (I'm not turning this into a TSL thread, he's just the prime example), who finds something wrong with every single facet of skating enough to go on tangents-- not just the skaters themselves, he's just projecting his own unhappiness.

 

[chameleonster]

What has struck me about these kinds of arguments I've seen over the past few years(not just about Alysa Liu, or Trusova, or even just ladies singles, I've seen it in men and even dance) is that people aren't arguing about the skater that actually currently exists today. Its this backlash to over hype(or what is perceived to be over hype, at least). People seem to forget how young the skaters they're being so harsh towards are because they're not really debating their current merits against the field they are currently competing against. They're debating about the hypothetical future versions of these skaters and how they will hypothetically be encouraged to grow and if that hypothetical skater will win the Olympics, and if that hypothetical victory will be deserved, and what impact that hypothetical victory will have on our sport and if we should take steps against said hypothetical future skater's assured victory or not.

Which is to say, I think we're all getting a little ahead of ourselves. These skaters are very young and have a lot of room to develop and should be treated as such. Constructive criticism is fine, but a lot of people seem to have forgotten what is appropriate or not, possibly because they're focusing so hard on an image of a future adult skater winning everything and robbing their favorite skaters despite somehow not developing at all since the age of thirteen. Maybe its better to focus on the present and encouraging them to grow rather than getting upset about a potential future result that can't happen for at least four years.

 

[berthesghost]

The backlash is almost always without exception a response to over hype. I’ve never seen anyone just suddenly pop off about some mid-pack skater few if any are talking about. It’s always a pattern and those “she’s a twisted sea hag who kicks puppies when no one is looking” type comments frequently pop up after 3 pages of OTT “she’s the most glorious skater who’s even been born of mortal parents. I fully expect her spirals alone can cure cancer” type gushing. The pendulum will always find a way to swing back.

 

[Bellanca]

I definitely agree with the theory that many fans like to live vicariously through athletes, even if they are not fully aware they are doing it because it happens unconsciously, and you do not have to be a parent of an athlete to get the feeling or the state of being exhilarated when fandom takes over. I see it and hear it at every competition. It’s very unnerving and uncomfortable when you witness someone so caught up, they forget to compose themselves and check their emotions.

I’ve also observed too many adult fans heckling underage skaters for all kinds of unnecessary reasons, and the worst part is when the skaters experience it for themselves. My heart breaks for them.

Also, these posts/comments are terrific! Very interesting to read these thoughts and opinions from a fan’s perspective.

 

[Tavi]

This kind of incivility isn’t limited to skating. People have been hiding behind anonymity online for years, engaging in bullying, rudeness, and generally being jerks. Not everyone of course. But many people think it’s okay. There’s very rarely any consequence for that kind of behavior. I think it’s worsening because - at least in the US - we’re being set a public example that encourages this kind of behavior as acceptable.

 

[Bellanca]

Unfortunately (and perhaps not surprisingly), it gets really personal when it comes to individual sports - anyone who follows multiple sports (winter/summer) knows that the social media environment in these sports really isn't that much better (and in some cases, worse, when sports betting comes into play).

So true.

As contentious as it can become at FSU, other figure skating forums, Facebook and Twitter, it often pales in comparison to the forums, blogs and sites providing exchanges, comments, and articles re soccer, football (bring a very thick skin to football) golf (a gentleman's sport my eye!) tennis and even swimming. These forums and blog spots for those sports can be incredibly ott and particularly vicious. Some of these people make the content by Dave, Phil, Christine, and Co. look like child's play.

It's bad - and more widespread than most realize.

If posters find themselves feeling offended or riled up at FSU, they should go check out some of the other sports and their sites when it's the season, and I guarantee they'll be back pretty quick to the safe confines of FSU.

Social media = a double-edged sword, but my wish would be that some fans cool their jets at the rink and competitions. Security shouldn't have to escort people out.

 

[Orm Irian]

I suspect that plain old-fashioned sexism plays a role on top of everything others have said here. I haven't seen anywhere near as much animosity aimed at young Stephen Gogolev for jumping quads while a preteen - and while that might be partly because Orser chooses not to show off his skaters' practices on social media as much as Tutberidze does, Gogolev is a boy. Boys are supposed to jump quads. He's young for it, but he's within the baseline of what's acceptable. Trusova et al, Alysa Liu, Rika Kihira with their 3As and quads - I don't like like what I see when I watch their skating and I worry about their wellbeing because I've seen what can happen to kids in early-specialisation sports who overtrain, but I don't believe for a second that a single one of the online attacks on them has anything to do with that sort of issue. They're girls trespassing on boy territory, and that means they're getting above themselves, and therefore, in the minds of some (and not just male someones, either - internalised misogyny is a thing), they need to be slapped down as hard and as often as possible until they go away and stop presuming that they have the right to achieve stuff. Or be visible. Or, you know, exist at all. Poor kids.

 

[misskarne]

I suspect that plain old-fashioned sexism plays a role on top of everything others have said here. I haven't seen anywhere near as much animosity aimed at young Stephen Gogolev for jumping quads while a preteen - and while that might be partly because Orser chooses not to show off his skaters' practices on social media as much as Tutberidze does, Gogolev is a boy. Boys are supposed to jump quads. He's young for it, but he's within the baseline of what's acceptable. Trusova et al, Alysa Liu, Rika Kihira with their 3As and quads - I don't like like what I see when I watch their skating and I worry about their wellbeing because I've seen what can happen to kids in early-specialisation sports who overtrain, but I don't believe for a second that a single one of the online attacks on them has anything to do with that sort of issue. They're girls trespassing on boy territory, and that means they're getting above themselves, and therefore, in the minds of some (and not just male someones, either - internalised misogyny is a thing), they need to be slapped down as hard and as often as possible until they go away and stop presuming that they have the right to achieve stuff. Or be visible. Or, you know, exist at all. Poor kids.

By the same token, I've also felt that is part of the root of some of the animosity towards Medvedeva and Zagitova. Girls aren't supposed to have technical ambition!!!!!!

 

[barbarafan]

A certain group of fans decided to send death threats and abuse - and continue to send them - to a then-17 year old minor just because she was the best on the night.

Too many people found this completely acceptable because they did not agree with the result.

That certain group of fans' hatred spread to all ladies of the 17 year old's nationality. To the point that they spam JGP live chats calling 13 year olds sluts and whores.

Now, I'm not blaming them for everything, and there are plenty of groups that are pretty bad. But to me, the rise in really uncouth fan behaviour is directly related to that reaction.

ITA as far as JGP is concerned....I love watching the live stream that Ted does and would look at the chat but there was so much abuse from these few posters that it was horrible..Every time a russian skater was brought up or skater there was insane attacks them and namecalling,,,,ie slut etc..Some of us asked them to knock it off to no avail.

 

[Tavi]

Except criticism of skaters isn’t limited to young girls. As an example, people have been harshly criticizing Jason for years - at least since he won Nats in 2015 - for his appearance (pony tail, man bun, costumes), demeanor in the kiss n cry (immature), and problems with jumps. Many people have tried to justify those comments as constructive criticism.

IRL, there have always been people who targeted kids for not fitting a particular norm - too fat, too shy, too nerdy, not “cute” enough, too “sexy” (threatening, makes you a “bad” girl), etc.

What’s different now is that people have a large public platform where they can anonymously say whatever they want. IRL, we’re still taught some rules about the “right” way to interact with each other, although even that’s breaking down somewhat (and of course, those rules differ from culture to culture). Online, there are virtually no rules, and that’s perceived by many as a good thing. It seems to me that a lot of people don’t know actually know the meaning of constructive criticism, and that others either don’t know how to say things in a non-inflammatory, non-argumentative way, or don’t see the value in doing so.

 

[el henry]

I could not agree more that hiding behind usernames and anonymity gives people some sort of license to spew out snark and venom. Somewhat like “liquid courage”. In part because they are congratulating themselves on being some sort of truth teller or change agent. Pretty funny when they are hiding behind usernames even on social media.

That said, it would be wrong to discount certain criticisms as sexism. I have been vocal that young girls (and boys for that matter) should not be training certain ways or competing as seniors. And, to make this totally about me you will look long and hard to find a poster more feminist. My opinion is based not on latent sexism, but on my opinion that their teams do not value health sufficiently. I do not think we should derail this thread with that conversation. You may think I could not more wrong or full of beans. Many do But please don’t misattribute my opinion to some sort of sexism.

That said, any personal name calling directed to a skater is all kinds of wrong. I’ve seen personal name calling directed to a 12 year old American skater. 12 years old?!? Who are these people and why do they walk among us?

 

[Orm Irian]

Yes, when I mentioned sexism as a motivator for attacks I wasn't thinking about reasoned critiques based in knowledge of the sport and physiology, such as you're more likely to find on a dedicated fanboard, el henry! I was thinking more of the kind of vicious side-swipes you see on YouTube comments and Twitter threads and particularly the ones directed at very young skaters, which is what Jackie Wong was tweeting about in the first place re Alysa Liu. Most of those betray a total lack of interest in discussing the sport or the skill more than superficially, and just reek of investment in stanning for a rival idol or verbally punching down someone who dares to aspire instead. And girls always, no matter what the context, get more of the punching down than boys do.

I know that the absolute visceral revulsion I feel when I watch Gogolev, Trusova and some other very young juniors skate is based in the fact that I used to teach kids their age, I know what kids' minds are like at that age and I've seen what the consequences can be when their bodies and psyches get broken at that age, and I cannot make myself think of it as appropriate for them to do adult work of any kind, never mind be promoted to star status for it (and yes, some of my students were high-level, high-performing athletes and dancers, so they're a reasonable comparison). But that's my personal critique of the system that's produced them. I'm happy to support their desire to accomplish stuff and acknowledge it when they do, even if I worry about what their spines and joints and brains will look like in ten years' time. The kind of kneejerk, lashing-out reaction that puts down what they've achieved in brutal fashion and gender-linked terms? Yeah, there's all too frequently a large dose of sexism in there along with the bad fandom behaviour. And depending on the skater being attacked, racism and homophobia can be factors too.

There's no environment in the world that's free of those things. I don't see any point in not acknowledging that people who write YouTube comments calling thirteen-year-old girls disgusting names and denying their accomplishments in response to them winning things are motivated by sexism and spite far more than they are by any feelings whatsoever about skating, even if words like 'flutz' and 'underrotation' sometimes get thrown into the mix too.

 

[UGG]

I don't think this is anything new. Kwan, Cohen, and Lipinski come to mind right away. There was seething hatred by some people towards these ladies when they were competing.

 

[Bellanca]

This has been the worst from Yunabots who, to this day, cannot accept that Adelina won in Sochi (which baffles me, as I've always felt that Carolina deserved gold, but whatever). It doesn't matter to these people that all three ladies on the podium skated well. Their hatred for Adelina (and, more recently, Medvedeva) knows no bounds. The comments are as disgusting as ever. It's despicable.

I don't think this is anything new. Kwan, Cohen, and Lipinski come to mind right away. There was seething hatred by some people towards these ladies when they were competing.

Funny that you should mention that because I was just getting ready to post (comment below) in response to @skateboy's post.

A skater’s overzealous and aggressive fan base (which the skater in question has no control over, to be fair) goes further back than the Yunabots. I can think of at least one group that has been -- for years now -- and continues to be entirely ott, obnoxious, very vocal and verbally abusive because the happy ending they’d banked on was never fully realized.

Fans resenting a skater because he, she or they dared to defeat that fan’s favorite skater(s) is nothing new.

ETA: There was quite a back and forth between Yamaguchi and Ito fans back in the day… It’s too bad, all this resentment, but it’s the unfortunate reality.

ETA: Social media has made this behavior worse, tenfold, and more accessible to engage in than ever before.

 

[UGG]

I just remember that weirdo David55 who was a grown @$$ man and had that Lipinski shrine and basically wanted Michelle Kwan to die, it was so seriously bizarre. Hopefully he received help.

 

[VALuvsMKwan]

I just remember that weirdo David55 who was a grown @$$ man and had that Lipinski shrine and basically wanted Michelle Kwan to die, it was so seriously bizarre. Hopefully he received help.

Are you conflating Dave Sato (with the TL shrine, including skates), and David55 and perhaps latter-days Adrian Chew, who certainly each had no love lost for the Kween?

 

[berthesghost]

I guess. But really, the whole “Kwan and Kim fans are the absolute worst people!” Mantra is its own brand of especially since it kinda doesn’t even make sense: they’re two of the absolute biggest success stories in the sport, winning all sorts of medals/titles/endorsements but their fans are all bitter crazed harpies because they lost?

 

[VGThuy]

I also think some times, though warranted, comments about whole groups of fans are some people's way to attack the skater themselves and to promote the "victim" of the fan attacks. Like I said, I do think comments can be warranted when there are mass attacks, but some times I wonder when certain posters anoint themselves as the one to speak out against such fan behavior and do it with a certain selective vigor to defend a particular and specific skater.

 

[Willin]

This has been the worst from Yunabots who, to this day, cannot accept that Adelina won in Sochi (which baffles me, as I've always felt that Carolina deserved gold, but whatever). It doesn't matter to these people that all three ladies on the podium skated well. Their hatred for Adelina (and, more recently, Medvedeva) knows no bounds. The comments are as disgusting as ever. It's despicable.

Ugh. There's always those crazy fans. Recently it's been a very vocal segment of Fanyus (which is odd because the skater himself and Japanese fans tend to be very respectful) and some Virtue/Moir fans (although crazy fans have always been a part of ice dance). I often wonder if they're different crazy fans for each skater/team or if there's a couple small vocal groups of figure skating fans as a whole who latch onto the current "top" skater(s).

At least what I've noticed in other fandoms I've been in is that the most vile, rude, and crazy fans were either people who weren't actually fans but rather trolls, or the fans that made the object of their obsession their entire identity.

4) I do think that anything we do in life can be open to judgment, whether we ask for it or not. But there is a constructive way to go about it or a 'nicer' way of putting things-- ie. 'I didn't really care for that' or 'that wasn't my favorite' versus extremely nasty comments. I definitely can say I wasn't always so nice with my comments (I've been on this board for what, 18 years now? ), but I grew up and remembered how hard the athletes are working to be successful. When it comes to someone like Dave Lease (I'm not turning this into a TSL thread, he's just the prime example), who finds something wrong with every single facet of skating enough to go on tangents-- not just the skaters themselves, he's just projecting his own unhappiness.

I think Dave in particular is someone that embodies a lot of the bad criticism we see from fans: things attacking the person, not the skating. I think it's totally fine to provide constructive criticism like "her skating skills need work" or "they need different music," but to attack their personality or appearance or accuse someone of being a liar...

Bringing this back to my reply to the previous quote, I agree that this seems to be a projection of someone else's unhappiness. I think that's part of these fans being unhappy and therefore living vicariously through these athletes (as @Weve3 said) to the point that they turn their favorite skater into their identity.
I would imagine that's also why the most intense fans tend to latch on to the most successful skaters and why they get so upset when their favorite loses: when their favorite doesn't win it's not just a surprise, it's a personal attack.

What has struck me about these kinds of arguments I've seen over the past few years(not just about Alysa Liu, or Trusova, or even just ladies singles, I've seen it in men and even dance) is that people aren't arguing about the skater that actually currently exists today. Its this backlash to over hype(or what is perceived to be over hype, at least). People seem to forget how young the skaters they're being so harsh towards are because they're not really debating their current merits against the field they are currently competing against. They're debating about the hypothetical future versions of these skaters and how they will hypothetically be encouraged to grow and if that hypothetical skater will win the Olympics, and if that hypothetical victory will be deserved, and what impact that hypothetical victory will have on our sport and if we should take steps against said hypothetical future skater's assured victory or not.

Which is to say, I think we're all getting a little ahead of ourselves. These skaters are very young and have a lot of room to develop and should be treated as such. Constructive criticism is fine, but a lot of people seem to have forgotten what is appropriate or not, possibly because they're focusing so hard on an image of a future adult skater winning everything and robbing their favorite skaters despite somehow not developing at all since the age of thirteen. Maybe its better to focus on the present and encouraging them to grow rather than getting upset about a potential future result that can't happen for at least four years.

Especially in the US this is a big thing - we're so desperate for a good ladies competitor that we latch on to any inkling of hope - most of which don't pan out. Certainly I'm guilty of this. That's why I'm making a conscious effort to stay away from videos and scores of young, promising skaters from any country. I'm only following Alysa Liu because I've been running into her lately. I like to support skaters that I see or saw regularly back in the day regardless of age.

I agree that the best thing we can do is focus on the present with these skaters. I think a lot more young skaters would continue or care more to push harder if they got lots of love and not criticism. I remember some of the vile comments made about Elise Freezer when her Juvenile program was posted here, and then her mom swooping in to tell people she read the comments. How demoralizing must that be for a 12-year-old to see people criticizing them?

I suspect that plain old-fashioned sexism plays a role on top of everything others have said here. I haven't seen anywhere near as much animosity aimed at young Stephen Gogolev for jumping quads while a preteen - and while that might be partly because Orser chooses not to show off his skaters' practices on social media as much as Tutberidze does, Gogolev is a boy. Boys are supposed to jump quads. He's young for it, but he's within the baseline of what's acceptable. Trusova et al, Alysa Liu, Rika Kihira with their 3As and quads - I don't like like what I see when I watch their skating and I worry about their wellbeing because I've seen what can happen to kids in early-specialisation sports who overtrain, but I don't believe for a second that a single one of the online attacks on them has anything to do with that sort of issue. They're girls trespassing on boy territory, and that means they're getting above themselves, and therefore, in the minds of some (and not just male someones, either - internalised misogyny is a thing), they need to be slapped down as hard and as often as possible until they go away and stop presuming that they have the right to achieve stuff. Or be visible. Or, you know, exist at all. Poor kids.

I hate what Orser's doing with Gogolev, especially since Orser is one of the guys concerned about kids doing too many quads too early. Obviously Orser knows better, so it looks scummy for him to act hypocritically like that. I hate that both boys and girls are doing things too young and too often.

On the other hand, I don't think that this is sexism.
I think there's a lot of reasons he's (and Orser) getting less criticism. An obvious one is that he's never competed internationally in Juniors due to his age. That means there's very minimal videos and press of him skating and doing quad-filled programs. As you said yourself, neither Orser nor Gogolev post much on social media so there's not much attention there either. He's also from Canada - a country that appreciates skating but is not nearly as fanatical about their skaters as Japan or Russia. He won't appear on the news to the extent that the Russian or Japanese Juniors do - especially since he's not a Junior yet. That makes for little opportunity for anyone that's not a hardcore skating fan to know him. I'm sure many more people would be upset if they even knew who he was.

I also think some times, though warranted, comments about whole groups of fans are some people's way to attack the skater themselves and to promote the "victim" of the fan attacks. Like I said, I do think comments can be warranted when there are mass attacks, but some times I wonder when certain posters anoint themselves as the one to speak out against such fan behavior and do it with a certain selective vigor to defend a particular and specific skater.

I think it's bad when people use fans as a proxy for a skater, although I must admit I am guilty of not liking Virtue/Moir because of the nasty things some of their fans say about other ice dance teams. I think it's sometimes hard to separate the fans from their skater(s) because you can't separate them with social media integrated into everything. For instance, almost every ice dance thread on FSU has nasty fans. Social Media was uncheckable during ice dance competitions where V/M and P/C were head-to-head. News articles about those competitions were unreadable due to the awful comments. There's some debate in other fandoms whether or not someone should be responsible for what awful things their fans may say. I don't think that should be the case, but I also don't know what the athlete can do to stop them.
Recently I've been trying to just skip all posts from fanatics and focus on learning about the skaters. My opinion of V/M was helped when I got to see Scott getting blasted at the Canada Olympic Hockey game - it was funny and endearing and so different from what their most crazy fans are like.

I do wish there was something we could do to stop the crazy fans... It's always depressing to see that crazy segment of the Fanyus arguing that someone "plagiarized" his program or those crazy Yuna fans on twitter calling Adelina an undeserving cheater. I almost feel worse for the crazy fans than the skater, because their behavior is so juvenile, but the skaters have to know people are saying awful things about them, and that has to hurt.

If posters find themselves feeling offended or riled up at FSU, they should go check out some of the other sports and their sites when it's the season, and I guarantee they'll be back pretty quick to the safe confines of FSU.

Some of the things you see on sports forums and social media are somehow worse than skating ones - threatening rape, wishing death onto people, racial slurs, etc. all sent directly to the athletes themselves. Then you have the video gaming fandom - where racial, sexist, and homophobic slurs are so common you can't go two minutes without hearing one thrown at you personally.

I was shocked to see how awful the fandoms of certain things are. The Dallas Cowboys Cheerleaders fandom is so awful to women. I follow a forum for the show because of the between members (I started after seeing a screenshot a girl from my high school posted on social media about a classmate that tried out), and my god some of the things the "fans" say are horrifying. Downright calling the girls they're supposedly fans of "huge," "fat," and "jiggly," saying one girl is an idiot, claiming all the team members "hate" certain girls, claiming that girls are "ugly," saying some girls are so bad at dancing that they're only there because "their mamas work for the team," making fun of the plastic surgery the girls get eg. "she has bolted-on ***s" or "she has a mono****," etc. etc. etc. For reference, this is one of the girls multiple forum members called fat.

 

[VGThuy]

About fans being used as proxies for skaters, I also think being mindful of perspective helps too. For some people, they can't stand the way fans of one skater/team treats their rivals and can come up with so many examples of bad behavior. And yet, the ones being accused of bad behavior see their skater/team as being victims and how they are constantly under attack by fans of their rivals and can come up with their own examples. So everybody thinks the other side acts worse than their side.

 

[aftershocks]

... e.g., AW and her now infamous (although supposedly meant to be a joke) sonograms crack, possibly forgetting momentarily that she too was their age not so long before she made that (sonogram) remark.

Anyone can think poorly of Ashley's comment, and many do. However, context is everything. The reference was made in response to the press @Weve3, constantly bombarding Ashley with OTT questions about Russian 'baby' ballerina rivals, and negatively slanted questions about Ashley being such an older woman surrounded by teenage competitors.

Ashley did not go on Twitter and rant in a derogatory fashion about her younger competitors, nor did she ever single anyone out with the comment. The comment was an offhand, tongue-in-cheek humorous slapback to the press, and it's been blown way out of proportion. The way Ashley's comment is constantly harped on kind of reminds me of the way Hillary Clinton's 'emails' took on a life of their own, regardless of the fact others in government had made similar mistakes due to federal government institutional offices having outdated technology practices and procedures. Go figure.


The whole topic of fans being rude and nasty, and or people in general saying dismissive and personally harsh stuff on social media is a valid topic of discussion. I don't think using Ashley's comment from years ago is a great example of that phenomenon. While Ashley may wish she hadn't used that reference, due to the ridiculous overreactions in some quarters, it was certainly not intended as a slam against any of her competitors.

 

[aftershocks]

I think it's one thing for some fans to be overly critical of a younger skater coming up due to being worried about their favorite being challenged (we've seen some of that with the criticism of Nathan Chen by some Javi and Hanyu fans). It's quite different to voice opinions about the current state of the sport and to question the over-emphasis on technical feats over blade mastery and artistry. Not to mention voicing concerns about young skaters' health and the pounding their bodies take.

Personally, I found the choice of Trusova's sp music with lyrics (Hey, Big Spender) to be a bit extra for such a young skater, but maybe something was lost in translation by her coaching team. The song is a standard that we have seen before, usually skated by a bit older athletes. It's not a choice that I felt was appropriate for Trusova, but it didn't seem to bother many fans or judges either. For me, that choice of music and it's general acceptance seems to reflect a bit of our culture's tendency toward subtle or overt sexual predation/exploitation of women, particularly of young females. It's gotten to the point where it has become commonplace and we don't even notice it.

My feelings about Trusova's music are not a critique on her talent. I do have reservations regarding the pounding young athletes' bodies take in the all-out rush to immediate glory. The sport has not truly examined this issue fully or thoughtfully. What is the trajectory going to be for the careers of young preteens and teenagers reeling off 3-axels and quads? I don't think anyone in the sport knows, except we do know that winning it all very soon can have it's career-ending challenges. Or being hyped and then having growing pains and losing your jumps can have disastrous personal consequences for young skaters. I prefer to see young skaters grow and blossom into artists who know more about who they are and can then express themselves more fully on the ice. That's why I'm excited about seeing Medvedeva's further development in a way that I have never been before.

I certainly don't have any remedies, and I'm not against what very young phenoms are doing and being guided to do, as long as they are guided by adults who have young skaters' physical and mental well-being best interests at heart. For me, I don't find that I enjoy watching one-note state-of-the-art tech without the skater combining that talent with blade mastery, and a good feel for the music. Sure tech feats can be wowza and jaw-dropping, but it's putting a program altogether in a way that has depth and magic rather than tricks and camouflage that floats my boat. To each their own.

 

[misskarne]

The whole topic of fans being rude and nasty, and or people in general saying dismissive and personally harsh stuff on social media is a valid topic of discussion. I don't think using Ashley's comment from years ago is a great example of that phenomenon.

The other issue with that, I suppose, is one of validation. Adam fans tweeting nasty comments about Jason's US Nationals win may have felt that their behaviour was justified when Adam himself retweeted many of those comments. Ditto when Max was named to the WTT team that year and Adam again retweeted many of the catty comments his fans were posting on social media. Rather than seeing that their behaviour (and his) was unsportsmanlike in the least, they may have instead viewed it as a "this behaviour is okay because our skater is sanctioning it by repeating it".

 

[aftershocks]

The other issue with that, I suppose, is one of validation. Adam fans tweeting nasty comments about Jason's US Nationals win may have felt that their behaviour was justified when Adam himself retweeted many of those comments. Ditto when Max was named to the WTT team that year and Adam again retweeted many of the catty comments his fans were posting on social media. Rather than seeing that their behaviour (and his) was unsportsmanlike in the least, they may have instead viewed it as a "this behaviour is okay because our skater is sanctioning it by repeating it".

A good point, but if you can, please do provide screenshots of the tweets that Adam retweeted. If they were negative and catty comments by his fans against his competitors, it certainly was in poor taste and a lapse in judgment on Adam's part to approve by retweeting.