History of judges rebellion when a style is too predominant

caseyedwards

caseyedwards

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Everyone in ice dance is moving to dubreil. No ice dance team want anything to do with any other style if they have a choice. If they don’t have a choice they stay in Moscow or wherever.

When in history have judges said enough!!! Time to do some changes and let’s elevate a new style!!

Did this happen with Elvis stojko?!? Did he benefit from extreme judges rebellion from all men trying to be curry

Midori ito? Part of judge rebellion from all ladies trying to be Witt??

All ice dancers now trying to be dubreuil.

How much Chance is their for judging rebellion making Russian team world champions?
 
I don't think Gadbois has only one style. They have different choreographers (essentially MFD, Chouinard and Wilson I believe ?). V/M, H/D and P/C were very different this year, and the year before, while training at the same school.

C/B are an old team, they have an established style. I do not think they will clone P/C's style at all. They probably want to change their style somehow and challenge it, but it's not like all the Gadbois teams were trained at the same place since infancy and had the same way of skating.

I also do not think that P/C are an exact incarnation of the Montreal style either. Hurtado/Diaz were perhaps a better example of this, and they had a more "agressive" way of skating in their Picasso program (a skating masterpiece to me). You cannot say Gadbois equals something soft and lyrical. If you look at the junior Gadbois teams who trained under this school only (or almost), like Soucisse/Firus, I do not know how you can find that they copy PC ? They are very different.

I think the biggest influence P/C had on other Montreal teams, if they had any, is on the way the male partner dances and does not present. Of course they were not the first to so, in Montreal or elsewhere, but I do not think many teams before put the same emphasis on the male dancer as they did. I do think for example that Donahue especially is a great dancer and in some programs he had a Cizeron-vibe to me. But that is not about a dancing style exactly, more about how you construct a program. Generally I do think Gadbois have excellent male dancers and they rightly show them off, perhaps following P/C success.

And anyways, the fact that some teams have some sort of "shared canvas" because they were trained together for so long (which is not the case for the most famous Gadbois teams) does not make them clones of each other either. Look at ballet dancers for examples : Zakharova and Vishneva have their own dancing personality, even though they went through the same school.
 
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I really feel like (hope) P/C need to try a new style in the FD this season or else the judges will get bored. (I already am, although totally acknowledge their out-of-this-world talent and basics).

I would love to someone attempt a IJS version of the blaznigly fast, over-the-top DRAMA! free dances we saw in the late 90s and early 00s.

caseyedwards said:
When in history have judges said enough!!! Time to do some changes and let’s elevate a new style!!
Click to expand...

The most pertinent example I can think of is in 2001 when FP/M won Worlds with their techno chest bump Romeo and Juliet FD over A/P’s Beethoven’s Last Night, which was quite redundant of their last 3 FDs.
 
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Viscaro said:
I don't think Gadbois has only one style. They have different choreographers (essentially MFD, Chouinard and Wilson I believe ?). V/M, H/D and P/C were very different this year, and the year before, while training at the same school.

C/B are an old team, they have an established style. I do not think they will clone P/C's style at all. They probably want to change their style somehow and challenge it, but it's not like all the Gadbois teams were trained at the same place since infancy and had the same way of skating.

I also do not think that P/C are an exact incarnation of the Montreal style either. Hurtado/Diaz were perhaps a better example of this, and they had a more "agressive" way of skating in their Picasso program (a skating masterpiece to me). You cannot say Gadbois equals something soft and lyrical. If you look at the junior Gadbois teams who trained under this school only (or almost), like Soucisse/Firus, I do not know how you can find that they copy PC ? They are very different.

I think the biggest influence P/C had on other Montreal teams, if they had any, is on the way the male partner dances and does not present. Of course they were not the first to so, in Montreal or elsewhere, but I do not think many teams before put the same emphasis on the male dancer as they did. I do think for example that Donahue especially is a great dancer and in some programs he had a Cizeron-vibe to me. But that is not about a dancing style exactly, more about how you construct a program. Generally I do think Gadbois have excellent male dancers and they rightly show them off, perhaps following P/C success.

And anyways, the fact that some teams have some sort of "shared canvas" because they were trained together for so long (which is not the case for the most famous Gadbois teams) does not make them clones of each other either. Look at ballet dancers for examples : Zakharova and Vishneva have their own dancing personality, even though they went through the same school.
Click to expand...

But Then Godbois is taking over dance. It’s gadbois dance. How about ending this vicious monopoly? Any monopoly is terrible. People say well the monopoly is giving the people what it wants and why should success be punished? Because monopolies suck up all resources and further themselves. People just give up or are driven out of business.

alchemy void said:
I really feel like (hope) P/C need to try a new style in the FD this season or else the judges will get bored. (I already am, although totally acknowledge their out-of-this-world talent and basics).

I would love to someone attempt a IJS version of the blazigly fast, over-the-top DRAMA! free dances we saw in the late 90a and early 00s.



The most pertinent example I can think of is in 2001 when FP/M won Worlds with their techno chest bump Romeo and Juliet FD over A/P’s Beethoven’s Last Night, which was quite redundant of their last 3 FDs.
Click to expand...

I hope this can happen in ijs. I hope screaming crying tear hair out and clothes tending drama can get the TES and goe.
 
caseyedwards said:
But Then Godbois is taking over dance. It’s gadbois dance. How about ending this vicious monopoly? Any monopoly is terrible. People say well the monopoly is giving the people what it wants and why should success be punished? Because monopolies suck up all resources and further themselves. People just give up or are driven out of business.
Click to expand...

So what do you suggest, petitioning the government?
 
Viscaro said:
I don't think Gadbois has only one style. They have different choreographers (essentially MFD, Chouinard and Wilson I believe ?). V/M, H/D and P/C were very different this year, and the year before, while training at the same school.

C/B are an old team, they have an established style. I do not think they will clone P/C's style at all. They probably want to change their style somehow and challenge it, but it's not like all the Gadbois teams were trained at the same place since infancy and had the same way of skating.

I also do not think that P/C are an exact incarnation of the Montreal style either. Hurtado/Diaz were perhaps a better example of this, and they had a more "agressive" way of skating in their Picasso program (a skating masterpiece to me). You cannot say Gadbois equals something soft and lyrical. If you look at the junior Gadbois teams who trained under this school only (or almost), like Soucisse/Firus, I do not know how you can find that they copy PC ? They are very different.

I think the biggest influence P/C had on other Montreal teams, if they had any, is on the way the male partner dances and does not present. Of course they were not the first to so, in Montreal or elsewhere, but I do not think many teams before put the same emphasis on the male dancer as they did. I do think for example that Donahue especially is a great dancer and in some programs he had a Cizeron-vibe to me. But that is not about a dancing style exactly, more about how you construct a program. Generally I do think Gadbois have excellent male dancers and they rightly show them off, perhaps following P/C success.

And anyways, the fact that some teams have some sort of "shared canvas" because they were trained together for so long (which is not the case for the most famous Gadbois teams) does not make them clones of each other either. Look at ballet dancers for examples : Zakharova and Vishneva have their own dancing personality, even though they went through the same school.
Click to expand...

V/M clearly tried to copy incorporate elements of P/C style in their Latch free dance, and H/D this past season as well for their programs.
 
MAXSwagg said:
V/M clearly tried to copy incorporate elements of P/C style in their Latch free dance, and H/D this past season as well for their programs.
Click to expand...
No they didn’t.
Valse Triste and Umbrellas of Cherbourg were both lyrical dances.
Long before P and C arrived on the scene.
They were doing straightline lifts with Scott in a spread eagle in those programs as well as a spinning stationary type lift.
P and C DID NOT invent lyrical dance.
 
I am very curious to see how the judges would react to all those miming in the coming season given what happened last season - the Russians, Kaori's Amelie...
 
chantilly said:
No they didn’t.
Valse Triste and Umbrellas of Cherbourg were both lyrical dances.
Long before P and C arrived on the scene.
They were doing straightline lifts with Scott in a spread eagle in those programs as well as a spinning stationary type lift.
P and C DID NOT invent lyrical dance.
Click to expand...

You might call those both lyrical but they are certainly NOT the same style. And yes, V/M as well as many other did and still are trying to mimic the impression evoked by P/C in their free dances.
 
MAXSwagg said:
You might call those both lyrical but they are certainly NOT the same style. And yes, V/M as well as many other did and still are trying to mimic the impression evoked by P/C in their free dances.
Click to expand...

Could you give some examples of when V/M did that, please?

Moulin Rouge and Moonlight Sonata are different as two free dances can be.
 
Japanfan said:
Could you give some examples of when V/M did that, please?

Moulin Rouge and Moonlight Sonata are different as two free dances can be.
Click to expand...

Poor, hastily typed English but V/M did not do that this season. But I could see it in their Latch free dance (which I said earlier). You might not want to accept that but that was the impression.
 
V/M had been experimenting with a more open style in exhibitions long before P/C got to the top. Chuck some twizzles into I Wanna Hold Your Hand from 2010 and you’ve got a ‘typical’ lyrical Gadbois FD. Uncoincidentally, choreographed by Marie-France. The oppositional movement in Latch isn’t really something I’d seen much in P/C’s dances at that point. Lyrical work has been around since like, the 80s. It all ebbs and flows.

Anyway, Montreal seems to be capable of producing programs with stylistic variety if you look past the top teams, so why would the judges need to rebel? The ‘entertainment bonus’, though ill thought out, seemed like it might been have been proposed as a way of nudging teams towards something different. I guess we’ll see what the next quad brings.
 
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chantilly said:
No they didn’t.
Valse Triste and Umbrellas of Cherbourg were both lyrical dances.
Long before P and C arrived on the scene.
They were doing straightline lifts with Scott in a spread eagle in those programs as well as a spinning stationary type lift.
P and C DID NOT invent lyrical dance.
Click to expand...


P/C didn't invent lyrical dances and I don't think anyone is saying that. I'd say the difference between them and the other teams is the way their integrate contemporary dance movements into icedance. I love the way they move. I don't usually like icedance but P/C's modern and contemporary style makes it interesting to me. To me they are the only reason to watch icedance.
 
One of the better examples I can think of to illustrate this discussion was when G&P won the 1994 Olympics with a blazingly fast, technically strong, and fun Rock & Roll number.

It was definitely a departure from what other teams were doing.
 
Enchanted said:
P/C didn't invent lyrical dances and I don't think anyone is saying that. I'd say the difference between them and the other teams is the way their integrate contemporary dance movements into icedance. I love the way they move. I don't usually like icedance but P/C's modern and contemporary style makes it interesting to me. To me they are the only reason to watch icedance.
Click to expand...

Can somebody point me to an example of them incorporating contemporary dance moves? Interpreting a particular mood or using contemporary music is one thing, but as a dancer- so much of contemporary dance and the way you have to get into the floor to do it properly is totally antithetical to the range of motion you have on skates and the illusion of floating across the ice P/C want to create. There’s a break in V/M’s Carmen- https://youtu.be/o1Oa39Uojj, at 4:36 on, but this whole program definitely got overseen by a dancer off the ice before it was translated- where their whole body movement (and not just their arms) is directly rooted in contemporary dance but a lot of people think that bit is quite awkward. The two forms are so in opposition it would be fiendishly difficult to create a program with a true contemporary base that still had sufficient ice coverage.
 
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Anyway.
It’s not P and C’s moves or style, it’s their choreography.

Valse Triste and Stay and I wanna hold your hand are similar to anything that P
And C have done.

P and C or rather their team opened up the holds in ice dance which has allowed for more freedom of movement.
That and the relaxing of the rules the last quad.
It has allowed for more individual movement and separations. And that was has really made the difference.
 
I do think the relaxing of the rules made a difference in the way ice dance looks now. Take any team from the 2010-2014 cycle and compare their programs to the 2014-2018 cycle and you'll see a difference in program construction. I think what made P/C take the ice dance world by storm was the fact that Guillaume had the skating skills and power to be able to integrate the elements so seamlessly that they don't look like elements and programs don't look like a collection of itemized moves (most of the time) but rather are part of an entire whole. Props to Gabi for improving and keeping up with him to the point where she became a strong skater herself and she brings the emotion to the program IMO. I think most teams actually strive for that but they don't have the edge quality, ease of movement, and power to do it. They're hoping to learn that from Montreal because their real strength is teaching them the technical to open up their tool box to do the programs and choreography they want to do.
 
VIETgrlTerifa said:
They're hoping to learn that from Montreal because their real strength is teaching them the technical to open up their tool box to do the programs and choreography they want to do.
Click to expand...

This x100. Elite teams can always learn new techniques, and Gadbois is good at teaching. With so many teams joining Gadbois and hopefully improving their skating skills, I'm hoping to see many different styles begin to emerge, reflecting the strengths of each team.
 
Fizz said:
Can somebody point me to an example of them incorporating contemporary dance moves? Interpreting a particular mood or using contemporary music is one thing, but as a dancer- so much of contemporary dance and the way you have to get into the floor to do it properly is totally antithetical to the range of motion you have on skates and the illusion of floating across the ice P/C want to create. There’s a break in V/M’s Carmen- https://youtu.be/o1Oa39Uojj, at 4:36 on, but this whole program definitely got overseen by a dancer off the ice before it was translated- where their whole body movement (and not just their arms) is directly rooted in contemporary dance but a lot of people think that bit is quite awkward. The two forms are so in opposition it would be fiendishly difficult to create a program with a true contemporary base that still had sufficient ice coverage.
Click to expand...

Probably best to watch Le Parc pas de deux. I can think of about six moves that were semi-incorporated in to the 2015 FS.
 
Icetigger said:
Probably best to watch Le Parc pas de deux. I can think of about six moves that were semi-incorporated in to the 2015 FS.
Click to expand...

Yes, I know it. The final lift is unmistakeable. But that’s a modern ballet, and I was referring to contemporary as its own strand of dance (or to be more precise, modern is a very particular form, while contemporary is more of a fusion or collaboration of styles). The terms get thrown around interchangeably because there is obviously overlap but there are distinctions. What I’m trying to poorly say is that the way you have to use your torso and legs for these styles of dance contradicts proper skating technique and you can try to approximate it with arm movements but I can’t really see where P/C have more successfully translated ‘contemporary’ or ‘modern’ more than anyone else.
 
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Fizz said:
Yes, I know it. The final lift is unmistakeable. But that’s a modern ballet, and I was referring to contemporary as its own strand of dance and one that’s not often at all been successfully translated to ice (or to be more precise, modern is a very particular form, while contemporary is more of a fusion or collaboration of styles). The terms get thrown around interchangeably.
Click to expand...

I don't think that people are using "contemporary dance" in such a dance history terminological manner ( and in which case, shouldn't the term be capitalised? although I know it generally isn't)
 
Icetigger said:
I don't think that people are using "contemporary dance" in such a dance history terminological manner ( and in which case, shouldn't the term be capitalised?)
Click to expand...

So are we not referring to the dance form and instead mean contemporary as in ‘new’ or ‘recent’ or ‘innovative’? Because Le Parc and/or a lyrical style in ice dance have been around a long time! I apologise if I’ve misunderstood but I think the point stands either way.

ETA: I was taught by my English teacher never to capitalise genres, not in music or dance or literature. So ‘contemporary’ has always been a small c to me and was when I was dancing it. I do not know if this is actually correct and am happy to learn otherwise if it’s not!
 
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