Have we ever 'seen' 540 jumps in Figure Skating?

[pETEs (Sasha Fan)]

Ò;ô

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAADq5UBW2g

Or, something like it?

 

[Willin]

I've definitely seen a few, but they're generally done in exhibitions or in the middle of footwork, so I can't think of any specific examples. In skating you also can't do several in a row because of physics, so nothing exactly like the videos.

 

[pETEs (Sasha Fan)]

I've definitely seen a few, but they're generally done in exhibitions or in the middle of footwork, so I can't think of any specific examples. In skating you also can't do several in a row because of physics, so nothing exactly like the videos.

Any audiovisual proof? Ò;ô

 

[AxelAnnie]

I can't even make sense of that when it is slowed down! Quite the move!!

 

[Willin]

@pETEs (Sasha Fan) I can't recall where I've seen it, so I can't find visual examples. Maybe someone else can? Some people here seem to have an insane memory with programs!

 

[pETEs (Sasha Fan)]

@pETEs (Sasha Fan) I can't recall where I've seen it, so I can't find visual examples. Maybe someone else can? Some people here seem to have an insane memory with programs!

I just find the 540 kick to be an impressive move, note that it comes quite recent to the ballet world since it is a popular Korean martial arts' kick. I remember having watched Fumio Igarashi via youtube do amazing air-work during his late 70's programs, yet of course nothing quite like a 540 revoltade.

 

[kirkbiggestfan]

Don't you give Jason Brown any ideas! He needs to focus on his quads instead.

 

[bardtoob]

Ò;ô

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAADq5UBW2g

Or, something like it?

This is very difficult to do in figure skates because the performer is facing upward while the body is almost parallel to the ice. It is much easier to be facing downward when one's body is parallel to the ice while in the air.

I know of one skater that did something similar to a single 540 jump from a loop entrance, which made it technically a variation on a falling leaf, in a competitive program to punctuate the end of straight line step sequence . . . and most are going to mixed feeling about seeing it . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdC5G7CDvbI&feature=youtu.be&t=235

 

[pETEs (Sasha Fan)]

Don't you give Jason Brown any ideas! He needs to focus on his quads instead.

xD! A triple 540 wouldn't be bad, to begin with! Ò;ô

 

[pETEs (Sasha Fan)]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MdC5G7CDvbI&feature=youtu.be&t=235

Tonya's move is sort of a 1/4 of a 540, a far cry from a full one. It looks more like some sort of 'jazzy choreographic move' à la Lori Nichol for Caro Kostner.

 

[bardtoob]

Tonya's move is sort of a 1/4 of a 540, a far cry from a full one. It looks more like some sort of 'jazzy choreographic move' à la Lori Nichol for Caro Kostner.

It's a 1Lp with a variation on the air position

 

[gkelly]

I don't think you'll find anything exactly the same on ice.

In terms of the feet, it looks like what the dancers are doing is the equivalent of a single loop jump, with a horizontal flip over in the air. One example starts with the foot more sideways to the direction of travel so it's closer to 1.25 than 1

What are you looking for something most "like" it? The takeoff and landing both, or one or the other? The air position? The fact that the takeoff foot rather than the free foot kicks up (that's what seems hardest to me)? The amount of rotation in the air (of course skating has developed to emphasize much more rotation, in tighter positions)?

A few variations of aerial cartwheel-type jumps with different takeoffs and landings, none identical to the examples you give.

Deathdrops or arabians are pretty common to achieve an open partially inverted position in the air without the complete flip over. It is possible to do multiple arabians in a row

For full 540-degree rotation, kick from free let and one-foot takeoffs and landings, kick from free leg (not takeoff leg) and no inversion, look at tuck axels.

I know I've seen a tuck loop by someone ~20 years ago, but I can't remember who.

 

[pETEs (Sasha Fan)]

For full 540-degree rotation, kick from free let and one-foot takeoffs and landings, kick from free leg (not takeoff leg) and no inversion, look at tuck axels.

I know I've seen a tuck loop by someone ~20 years ago, but I can't remember who.

Thank you very much, GKelly. At this point and with the limited amount of info possessing, I'm led to say that a tuck loop might look the closest to the ballet 540 revoltade. Although that doesn't quite solve the fact that the skater's body should be almost parallel to the ice and facing the ceiling at the peak of the move on the air, while during, while during aerial cartwheel and arabians and butterflies, the skaters are always facing down at the peak of the move; am I wrong? Ò;ô

 

[lala]

Ò;ô

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAADq5UBW2g

Or, something like it?

Unbelieveable! very beautiful!

 

[gkelly]

Although that doesn't quite solve the fact that the skater's body should be almost parallel to the ice and facing the ceiling at the peak of the move on the air, while during, while during aerial cartwheel and arabians and butterflies, the skaters are always facing down at the peak of the move; am I wrong?

That's correct, as far as I know. There doesn't seem to be any incentive to develop that skill.

Here's a single loop with an open air position. Enhancing that with greater amplitude might allow a move like the one you're talking about.

Here's an example with half-loops that could lead in a similar direction.

In context

But still pretty much upright.

 

[Vash01]

I trained in Tae Kwon Do years ago and had learned to do the tornado kick but never used in in free sparring. I was not familiar with the term 540 (must be more recent). The ballet dancers look much more graceful than any of us did.

I think it is difficult to duplicate the Tae Kwon Do kicks on the ice; different body muscles are used. I think it's harder to do it on the ice but never say never. From the video posted by the OP it looked like an open axel to me initially, but I have not yet seen the single loop (in Ilia's skate- didn't watch the full program) posted by gkelly, but the half loop vid does look like the tornado (without the power).

The ballet dancer looks beautiful- much more so than any of the martial artists (though I am a little partial to the power of Martial Arts).

 

[bardtoob]

That's correct, as far as I know. There doesn't seem to be any incentive to develop that skill.

It sounds like a great way to get a skull fracture.

 

[gkelly]

I think kicking the free leg with the takeoff/landing leg while learning would also be a danger that's much more trivial without a blade attached.

 

[Vash01]

I agree with gkelly. There is no incentive to develop this. However, some may try it in an exhibition, like the back flip which is illegal in eligible competitions.

 

[pETEs (Sasha Fan)]

I agree with gkelly. There is no incentive to develop this. However, some may try it in an exhibition, like the back flip which is illegal in eligible competitions.

Isn't sad how the word "incentive" takes place into this? I mean, why should it be about capitalizing moves to generate points to fill a table on a flawed system that is going to be buried sooner or later, instead of creating beauty and impact and innovate to make history?

 

[Vash01]

Isn't sad how the word "incentive" takes place into this? I mean, why should it be about capitalizing moves to generate points to fill a table on a flawed system that is going to be buried sooner or later, instead of creating beauty and impact and innovate to make history?

This is a competitive sport. Athletes are there to win, not just to look pretty. I don't feel sad about it. If I wanted to see beauty for the sake of art, there are many avenues - like FS exhibitions, ballet, and others.

 

[gkelly]

But no one that we know of ever mastered that move on ice under 6.0 judging either.

Most likely because they never thought of trying.

Or maybe someone did try and found it was too difficult to master on the ice.

Or that what makes it difficult has little to do with mastery of edges, so therefore it would not be highly valued in a sport that's all about mastering edges. So even if someone did master it and put it in a program, there was always a chance it would be made illegal in competition so all that risk and effort would be wasted.

 

[skateboy]

Isn't sad how the word "incentive" takes place into this? I mean, why should it be about capitalizing moves to generate points to fill a table on a flawed system that is going to be buried sooner or later, instead of creating beauty and impact and innovate to make history?

Hear, hear!

Of course everyone wants to win, but I miss innovation.

What about a jump with a forward landing edge? Say, takeoff on a right back outside edge, rotate one and a half times and land on a left outside forward edge (basically, a reverse axel). Risky, but not impossible... could be a cool first jump into a double axel combination.

 

[pETEs (Sasha Fan)]

Hear, hear!

Of course everyone wants to win, but I miss innovation.

What about a jump with a forward landing edge? Say, takeoff on a right back outside edge, rotate one and a half times and land on a left outside forward edge (basically, a reverse axel). Risky, but not impossible... could be a cool first jump into a double axel combination.

Sounds like something (physically) impossible. Ò;ô What do the venerable men of science from this forum can say about it?

 

[pETEs (Sasha Fan)]

This is a competitive sport. Athletes are there to win, not just to look pretty. I don't feel sad about it. If I wanted to see beauty for the sake of art, there are many avenues - like FS exhibitions, ballet, and others.

But the result of adhering so tight to the convention is that the 'competitive sport' does not evolve, it freezes in the points inside the table of a dying and flawed scoring system: there's no new (more challenging) moves, and I'm not talking about adding a fourth revolution to the standard jumps.

 

[skateboy]

Sounds like something (physically) impossible. Ò;ô What do the venerable men of science from this forum can say about it?

I was a roller competitor, and I saw some people do forward single loops as a choreographic innovation. It was cool.

 

[gkelly]

Forward-landing jumps are usually landed on two feet. It's much safer -- the forward edge is not nearly as stable to land on as the back outside edge -- too much chance of pitching forward onto one's face, all the moreso if there were more revolutions.

Here are 1-revolution axel takeoff jumps in both directions, landing on the takeoff edge and only putting the other foot down afterward. That's rare, as well as the forward outside edge landing.

Most forward-landing jumps are usually landed on the forward inside edge plus other toepick.

Half-rotation jumps from backward takeoffs, as simple transitional moves or "hops" have always been common. Spectacular in-air positions like split, stag, tuck positions were more popular earlier in the sport's history, before triple jumps came along.

Single rotations from forward takeoffs (half-axel or half- inside axel) are also sometimes used as transitional moves.

Backward-takeoff jumps with 1.5 revolutions landing forward that way have been around since the 1930s. Usually 1.5 flip. They were not uncommon in the postwar era through early 1970s but lost popularity as triples became more important.

I could find examples of all of the above, but it would be time consuming.

Jumps that land on two feet have never been highly valued because that defeats the purpose of using jumps as transitions from one edge to another and make them all about what happens in the air, which may be exciting to watch but doesn't demonstrate skating skill.

It's up to the skaters to be creative in coming up with new moves. There was a lot of creative exploration of what could be done with blades on ice throughout the 20th century, building on the basics developed in the 19th century. If it's possible and edge-related, it has probably been tried, but perhaps never perfected or popularized if the risks outweighed the rewards even in 6.0 judging.

The difference now with IJS is that listed elements that earn base values and GOEs are more guaranteed to earn value than non-listed moves.

If, after more than a century of codified competitive skating, following on a previous century or more of early invention, skaters can still come up with brand new moves, there are places to reward the skaters for such innovations.

My understanding is that one of the intentions behind the "choreo sequence" in the senior free skate was specifically to give skaters an opportunity to include unique moves that are not listed in the Scale of Values. Under the current choreo sequence rules, variations of single or double (or 1.5) jumps could fit there. And of course there is always room for any non-illegal unlisted move to be executed between elements or as entrances to or exits from listed elements, to be rewarded in the Transitions and Choreography components.

If those new moves are rooted in edge-based skating technique (as opposed to acrobatic moves executed on the ice while wearing blades that are more hindrance than help, which this "540" type jump probably would be), theoretically such moves could be adopted as official listed moves in the future.

 

[pETEs (Sasha Fan)]

I was a roller competitor, and I saw some people do forward single loops as a choreographic innovation. It was cool.

It seems so cool! Can you bring some video to figure it out?

 

[pETEs (Sasha Fan)]

Here are 1-revolution axel takeoff jumps in both directions, landing on the takeoff edge and only putting the other foot down afterward. That's rare, as well as the forward outside edge landing.

OMG! Leave it to Gary Beacom to materialize "the impossible". What a skater!

 

[skateboy]

It seems so cool! Can you bring some video to figure it out?

I don't, but thanks to @gkelly for the Gary Beacom video.