Have we ever 'seen' 540 jumps in Figure Skating?

pETEs (Sasha Fan) said:
Ò;ô

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sAADq5UBW2g

Or, something like it?
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:D........ This is Krav Maga or Taekwando "Bolley Kick" or "Tornado Kick".... and you can not do it on the ice (i've tried and dislocated shoulder) because of too much friction between blade and ice, and not enough flexibility in the foot which is inside the boot, as you need the strength in the ball of your take off foot to propel you vertically upwards with different "momentum" and "horizontal centrifugal force" (like in high-board twist jump or in gymnastics).

Bolley Kick - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNyV0GgL2lU

Look at the "dynamics" of the Tornado Kick... the take off position can not be effectively implemented on the ice off a blade -
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3XtlkclqONE
 
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skateboy said:
Hear, hear!

Of course everyone wants to win, but I miss innovation.

What about a jump with a forward landing edge? Say, takeoff on a right back outside edge, rotate one and a half times and land on a left outside forward edge (basically, a reverse axel). Risky, but not impossible... could be a cool first jump into a double axel combination.
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You sounds like a person who never tried skating. There is a reason why skaters land backwards. The reason is called toe picks. Toe picks is the part of the blade that touches the ice first, and it helps with the landing. If you land forward and use the toe picks the same way, you will trip over the toe picks and fall forward on your face.
 
hanca said:
You sounds like a person who never tried skating. There is a reason why skaters land backwards. The reason is called toe picks. Toe picks is the part of the blade that touches the ice first, and it helps with the landing. If you land forward and use the toe picks the same way, you will trip over the toe picks and fall forward on your face.
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I was a skating competitor for fifteen years, albeit roller skating.

I would never suggest triples with a forward landing, but a reverse axel might be doable. Of course, it would involve shifting the weight back a bit, so as not to land on the toe picks.
 
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skateboy said:
I was a skating competitor for fifteen years, albeit roller skating.

I would never suggest triples with a forward landing, but a reverse axel might be doable. Of course, it would involve shifting the weight back a bit, so as not to land on the toe picks.
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Then I guess roller skates don't have toe picks...
As you agree, doing triples with landing forward is not doable, unless you want to end up gliding on your stomach because you tripped on your toe picks. Doing singles might be possible, but there is no point because they don't bring enough points. And even those jumps that land forward like falling leaf land on two feet -one toe and the other foot glides out.
 
It's not even just the presence of the toepicks, but the whole mechanics of landing and checking and gliding out of a jump, given the anatomy of the human foot, ankle, and knee, that make it much stabler to land on edge traveling backward than forward.

Even in hockey skates or other blades without toepicks, it would be much safer to do a single loop jump taking of and landing on a back outside edge (or a half-loop or one-foot salchow landing on back inside) than to do a "forward loop" jump taking of and landing on forward outside as in the Beacom example. Note that he did put his other foot down very shortly after landing. It's just not a stable edge to land on in an unassisted glide.

Some forward jumps with toe assist on landing:
split, mazurka, 1.5 toe loop, into 2T
half-axel
same sequence as above without the split jump
1.5 flip, 2F in slow motion
half-walley, half-flip, 1.5 flip, 2F
half-inside axel x3, half-axel the other direction, 2A

And just for the heck of it, "Bourkey" and split-lutz (single flip and single lutz with air position variations)
split-toe loop
single loop with takeoff leg kicking in front of free leg (but upright, not the horizontal position from the OP)
 
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hanca said:
You sounds like a person who never tried skating. There is a reason why skaters land backwards. The reason is called toe picks. Toe picks is the part of the blade that touches the ice first, and it helps with the landing. If you land forward and use the toe picks the same way, you will trip over the toe picks and fall forward on your face.
Click to expand...

Not fair to Skateboy. He said he is a roller. I don't know if he is in-line, quad-wheel, but he is a roller, and on rollers you CAN do forward landings after jumps. I used to be both, icer and quad-roller, and speaking from experience.

on quads: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag9tiA04-as
on in-line jumbo wheels you can do street parkour which requires a lot of forward jump landing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBbZ_0-tUH0

Quad-rollers in certain elements gives one a lot more flexibility and choices, like travelling camel into "hill-spin" and much more. See this video of Worlds 2016. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tY9QeZgf_-A

... and fully inverted camel spin, because the rubber wheels and toe-stop gives more grip and balance with the floor....
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rkvbd4-rT60

.... free style skating on hockey skates also allow forward landing after jumps...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dwfa0xEZ0Hw

skateboy said:
I was a skating competitor for fifteen years, albeit roller skating.

I would never suggest triples with a forward landing, but a reverse axel might be doable. Of course, it would involve shifting the weight back a bit, so as not to land on the toe picks.
Click to expand...

Just out of curiosity, where did you skate (geographically) and in what discipline, singles, dance, pairs? and when?
 
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Tinami Amori said:
on rollers you CAN do forward landings after jumps. I used to be both, icer and quad-roller, and speaking from experience.

on quads: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ag9tiA04-as
on in-line jumbo wheels you can do street parkour which requires a lot of forward jump landing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PBbZ_0-tUH0

.... free style skating on hockey skates also allow forward landing after jumps...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dwfa0xEZ0Hw
Click to expand...

Yes, but all those forward-landing jumps land on two feet. Which makes them not-figure skating. They could be used as fun highlight moves between elements or as part of a choreo sequence, but they're never going to be part of the standard repertoire of figure skating elements or be incorporated into the IJS scale of values.

I've shown examples of plenty of forward-landing jumps in figure skating that are possible but not standard elements because they land on two feet.

I haven't seen any examples of rotating and landing on one foot and gliding forward on roller skates either.
 
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I don't think they can be used as a fun highlights moves. I would worry that in figure skating a jump landed forward on two legs would still be counted as a jump, but underrotated, so the skater would be actually penalised for it. How do you explain to tech spec that they are not supposed to count this jump as a jump because you landed forward on purpose?
 
hanca said:
How do you explain to tech spec that they are not supposed to count this jump as a jump because you landed forward on purpose?
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I think there is a new provision that if an up to 1.5 jump is in the middle of a choreography sequence then it does not fill a box for a jump because it fills a box for choreography sequence.
 
gkelly said:
Yes, but all those forward-landing jumps land on two feet. Which makes them not-figure skating. They could be used as fun highlight moves between elements or as part of a choreo sequence, but they're never going to be part of the standard repertoire of figure skating elements or be incorporated into the IJS scale of values.

I've shown examples of plenty of forward-landing jumps in figure skating that are possible but not standard elements because they land on two feet.
I haven't seen any examples of rotating and landing on one foot and gliding forward on roller skates either.
Click to expand...

Realistically, you're correct.

Technically, on figure roller skates one can land forward from 1x jumps or easy jumps if not rolling too fast.

Roller skating is slower, more floor grab, not same speed. I've played with 1-1/2 sal landing forward on one foot and take off into single axle, or doing split falling leaf, landing forward on one foot and going into spiral. Roller skating allows more flexibility of moves, or maybe less restrictions, at least back in the 80's and 90's. And unfortunately i can not easily find videos to demonstrate.
 
bardtoob said:
Hmmm ... It a single flip jump variation ...
Click to expand...

I don't know if calling it a "single flip" is accurate, we would need to study the entrance, but the movement itself seems a whole different thing and, unlike butterflies, cartwheels, etc., the move this skater does resembles the 540 rivoltade and translates it to the ice, due to the mer fact that at the peak of the move on air, he is facing the ceiling and not the ice.
 
pETEs (Sasha Fan) said:
I don't know if calling it a "single flip" is accurate, we would need to study the entrance ...
Click to expand...

The jump is toe assisted from a back inside edge without counter-rotation, so it is a flip.

If one were to consider the picking foot to be the equivalent of the last foot to leave the floor on the ground version, then Kori's student, Ben Jalovick, does successfully replicate the 540 jump well enough.
 
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Tinami Amori said:
Just out of curiosity, where did you skate (geographically) and in what discipline, singles, dance, pairs? and when?
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Haha it's been awhile, it was the 80s. USA, various clubs, singles which included figures/free skating. I was at senior level, competed at Nationals four times (but never placed all that high there). I loved figures... loved free skating, too... just wasn't all that consistent. I was a better spinner than a jumper. :cool: BTW, roller skaters still compete figures.
 
skateboy said:
Haha it's been awhile, it was the 80s. USA, various clubs, singles which included figures/free skating. I was at senior level, competed at Nationals four times (but never placed all that high there). I loved figures... loved free skating, too... just wasn't all that consistent. I was a better spinner than a jumper. :cool: BTW, roller skaters still compete figures.
Click to expand...
If by chance your skating took place in North Cal., i am sure we may know the same people and rinks... :D
 
^^ A single delayed axel is a gorgeous move, but it doesn't have a high leg kick.

Ben Jalovick's cool move seems to come closest to resembling the 540. John Misha Petkovich's flying axel sit spin came immediately to my mind, as already cited by @pETEs (Sasha Fan). JMP's great feats were discussed in a thread here about a year or so ago, with many oohs and ahhs. In addition, although it's not exactly like the 540, Brian Boitano's amazing death drop was always a wow in his programs.
Boitano demonstrates it in this video at 1:40: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZbfK14CWBM

Ballet and figure skating both incorporate amazing athletic feats. Each discipline has its limitations based on the surface and lower extremity equipment (stage floor that has some give vs unforgiving hard ice; and bare feet or ballet slippers vs rather unyielding skate boots). As far as your reference to "looking pretty" @Vash01: figure skating is sport and art -- the aesthetics are important or we wouldn't be discussing aesthetics in so many threads. It's not about looking 'pretty' though. It's about hard work and making the impossible possible while looking effortless doing so, and of course strategizing to garner those necessary points. Ballet is even more about performance art, but you can't come close to doing that either without a strong, fit, limber body combined with talent.

Kung fu is an ancient discipline which is more about mind over matter. You have to be physically fit, but also mentally and spiritually strong. It's described as "a practice that requires patience, energy and time..." In that sense, the same can surely be said about ballet and figure skating.
 
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aftershocks said:
^^ A single delayed axel is a gorgeous move, but it doesn't have a high leg kick.

Ben Jalovick's cool move seems to come closest to resembling the 540. John Misha Petkovich's flying axel sit spin came immediately to my mind, as already cited by @pETEs (Sasha Fan). JMP's great feats were discussed in a thread here about a year or so ago, with many oohs and ahhs. In addition, although it's not exactly like the 540, Brian Boitano's amazing death drop was always a wow in his programs.
Boitano demonstrates it in this video at 1:40: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZbfK14CWBM

Ballet and figure skating both incorporate amazing athletic feats. Each discipline has its limitations based on the surface and lower extremity equipment (stage floor that has some give vs unforgiving hard ice; and bare feet or ballet slippers vs rather unyielding skate boots). As far as your reference to "looking pretty" @Vash01: figure skating is sport and art -- the aesthetics are important or we wouldn't be discussing aesthetics in so many threads. It's not about looking 'pretty' though. It's about hard work and making the impossible possible while looking effortless doing so, and of course strategizing to garner those necessary points. Ballet is even more about performance art, but you can't come close to doing that either without a strong, fit, limber body combined with talent.

Kung fu is an ancient discipline which is more about mind over matter. You have to be physically fit, but also mentally and spiritually strong. It's described as "a practice that requires patience, energy and time..." In that sense, the same can surely be said about ballet and figure skating.
Click to expand...

I never trained in Kung Fu, but I did for many years in Tae Kwan Do, and some in two other martial arts. All martial arts - not just Kung Fu- emphasize the mental aspect but I dont see them as spiritual (opinions may differ). When done well. the martial arts moves are beautiful but beauty is not the goal there. Beauty is essential to ballet. I never said it doesn't require high level of difficulty and skill but it is not a sport. FS OTOH is a sport, but in 3 out of 4 disciplines (or now 2 out if 4, since pairs have lost the beauty now) beauty is a very important factor, in addition to athleticism.

The discussion here is whether the tornado kick can be done on ice, and I don't think it is possible, having had the training in both (high level in the martial arts and only low level in FS). Different muscles are used in the two sports. The tornado kick is taught much later in Tae Kwan Do training, and is hard enough on the floor. I dont see the visuals here replicating it or other kicks like side kick, round house kick, etc. May be some day someone will prove me wrong and we will see Tae Kwan Do on ice. )

By comparison it is easier to bring ballet moves to the ice. They can be integratef with FS. I have even seen a full ballet on the ice, but I don't think sports like gymnastics, or many of the martial arts work on the ice. They all require skills but they are different, and I like them to remain different.
 
Vash01 said:
This is a competitive sport. Athletes are there to win, not just to look pretty. I don't feel sad about it. If I wanted to see beauty for the sake of art, there are many avenues - like FS exhibitions, ballet, and others.
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^^ Above are your exact words from your post #21. No one else brought up anything in a derogatory way about the aesthetics of ballet vs figure skating. And I responded to your observations. I think it is such a conceit to try and separate aesthetics from sport in general, and especially from figure skating in particular. I don't get all the chest-beating and anxiety over needlessly feeling obligated to pronounce that figure skating is a sport! Of course it is. And the aesthetics that are uniquely a part of figure skating, IMO, do not need to be apologized for, nor denied and minimized and separately categorized.

Heck, Roger Federer is like a ballet dancer on the tennis court. And that is a huge part of his enormous appeal, in addition to his extraordinary skill and athleticism, combined with his admirable character and charisma.

Vash01 said:
When done well. the martial arts moves are beautiful but beauty is not the goal there. Beauty is essential to ballet. I never said it doesn't require high level of difficulty and skill but it is not a sport. FS OTOH is a sport, but in 3 out of 4 disciplines (or now 2 out if 4, since pairs have lost the beauty now) beauty is a very important factor, in addition to athleticism.

The discussion here is whether the tornado kick can be done on ice, and I don't think it is possible, having had the training in both (high level in the martial arts and only low level in FS). Different muscles are used in the two sports. The tornado kick is taught much later in Tae Kwan Do training, and is hard enough on the floor. I dont see the visuals here replicating it or other kicks like side kick, round house kick, etc. May be some day someone will prove me wrong and we will see Tae Kwan Do on ice. )

By comparison it is easier to bring ballet moves to the ice. They can be integratef with FS. I have even seen a full ballet on the ice, but I don't think sports like gymnastics, or many of the martial arts work on the ice. They all require skills but they are different, and I like them to remain different.
Click to expand...

I responded to your original comment. I did not say anything about kung fu and beauty or anything about gymnastics and other sports. Again, it's you referencing aspects of 'beauty.' I said that kung fu is described as requiring "patience, energy and time." And then I said, 'the same can surely be said about ballet and figure skating.' I'll leave the overwrought comparisons & walled-off separations between ballet & figure skating in regard to sport/ beauty to you.

The mental vs spiritual debate in regard to martial arts is best left for a separate thread topic. :)

Yep the discussion here is about whether the tornado kick has been or can be brought to the ice. To each their own perceptions about what can or can not be brought to the ice, and what is 'appropriate' to bring to the ice or not. I think the sky is the limit, with physics, logistics and matters of equipment being the main limiting factors. Our imaginations OTOH are limitless. And I wish TPTB in figure skating would learn how to use their imaginations more.
 
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aftershocks said:
Heck, Roger Federer is like a ballet dancer on the tennis court. And that is a huge part of his enormous appeal, in addition to his extraordinary skill and athleticism, combined with his admirable character and charisma.
.
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The same could be said about Zinédine Zidane in football: true masters of many different sports bring an aesthetic dimension to their practice, which express an impressive control of their bodies.
 
aftershocks said:
(...) I wish TPTB in figure skating would learn how to use their imaginations more.
Click to expand...

That is why I'm so fond with approaches such as "Le patin libre" with its almost ideological regard of ice skating, demolishing the walls of what "you can or should do inside the competitive figure skating world". The cross between imagination and the constrictions of our own bodies is what makes interpretative art (and sports) forms that use the body as a vehicle want to live another day.
 
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