Has USFSA flat out ever told a skater to retire?

[Cleo1782]

Agnes Zawadzki in 2014 after winning the Bronze medal the previous two Nationals got dropped like a hot potato after her SP all the way down to 13th place. Granted she made some mistakes but after being held up at Nationals before the USFSA sent her the message they were tired of her underachieving and wouldn't hold her up anymore. It might not have been a you should retire message but it was a message all the same.

That was the first person I thought of. She always had some errors and was held up and once we got the 3rd spot-the usfs dropped her. I don't know if they made her retire though.
I think the writing was on the wall for Cesario too.

 

[skateboy]

I'll say it as many times as I need to: USFSA does not tell the judges to "send messages" to skaters. Some of the judges on the committee may have their own opinion of skaters that reflects their job on the committee, but a lot of judges are simply that: judges. They go to the competition, sit down, judge, and go home.

Thank you.

I can't help but roll my eyes whenever I read theories about "the judges" doing this or that... as if the USFS instructs all of its judges to purposely hold down/boost a particular skater/team, regardless of what is put down on the ice on a given day.

At Nationals this year, Ross Miner could have received low enough PCS scores to keep him off the podium: that didn't happen. Adam and Jason could have been held up as locks for 2nd and 3rd at Nationals: that didn't happen. Ashley was considered a lock for the Olympic team and could have been held up: that didn't happen. The Shibs could have been boosted to retain their status as US #1: that didn't happen.

I believe most judging is as fair as can be expected, considering the inherent subjectivity of the sport.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Agnes was not held up at Nationals. She in fact deserved 2nd over overrated Csizny in 2012 and overrated Gracie Gold in 2013. Even with her mistakes, remember those girls made a lot of mistakes too, more than her over the 2 programs in fact.

 

[Debbie S]

I'll say it as many times as I need to: USFSA does not tell the judges to "send messages" to skaters. Some of the judges on the committee may have their own opinion of skaters that reflects their job on the committee, but a lot of judges are simply that: judges. They go to the competition, sit down, judge, and go home.

True. But there will always be skaters with 'buzz', and sentiment as to whose star is rising or falling. Remember that judges are the bulk of USFS leadership - most of the volunteers leadership rose in the sport first as skaters, now as judges (and of course, coaches and athletes have representation on the committees, too). There may not be a specific decision made as to who will be placed 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and so on, but there is definitely chatter about who has momentum, who has a better program, who had a great int'l season (and who didn't).

There are skaters who catch attention and get a buzz starting at the lower levels (Nathan, Gracie, Shibs) and there are those who have a great season and gain favor with the int'l judges (H/D and Bradie this season). Obviously, skaters have to perform well in the moment to get the results they want, but in a competitive field with subjective judging, perception counts for a lot.

So no, I don't think anyone in USFS told Rachael or Agnes to retire, but they clearly lost favor/momentum while others (Polina) were seen as rising and worth pushing/promoting.

 

[pinky166]

I doubt USFS ever tells some to retire directly. If a person’s results slip internationally then their marks at Nationals tend to reflect it. Contrary to others, I don’t think USFS or Nationals judges “dump” certain skaters, rather I think they promote/boost the scores of skaters that are doing well internationally and/or seen as contenders for winning a US, world, or Olympic medal.

So for example, I don’t think Ashley or Mariah Bell were really dumped at Nationals this year, I just don’t think they were seen as Olympic medal threats or shoo-ins for the team, so their scores were more or less in line with what they’d get internationally, whereas Bradie and Mirai got a boost because they were seen as the top US ladies this season and near locks for the Olympic team.

It’s all relative, but I see boosting scores for some as what goes on at Nationals versus purposefully holding them down for others. When you’re a skater on the rise or major contender for titles your scores rise internationally too.

 

[AxelAnnie]

I doubt USFS ever tells some to retire directly. If a person’s results slip internationally then their marks at Nationals tend to reflect it. Contrary to others, I don’t think USFS or Nationals judges “dump” certain skaters, rather I think they promote/boost the scores of skaters that are doing well internationally and/or seen as contenders for winning a US, world, or Olympic medal.

So for example, I don’t think Ashley or Mariah Bell were really dumped at Nationals this year, I just don’t think they were seen as Olympic medal threats or shoo-ins for the team, so their scores were more or less in line with what they’d get internationally, whereas Bradie and Mirai got a boost because they were seen as the top US ladies this season and near locks for the Olympic team.

It’s all relative, but I see boosting scores for some as what goes on at Nationals versus purposefully holding them down for others. When you’re a skater on the rise or major contender for titles your scores rise internationally too.

I disagree about Ashley. I think she was widely seen as a lock on an OLY spot. Whether or not they were dumped is a different question. I think that can be argued either way.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

So for example, I don’t think Ashley or Mariah Bell were really dumped at Nationals this year, I just don’t think they were seen as Olympic medal threats or shoo-ins for the team, so their scores were more or less in line with what they’d get internationally, whereas Bradie and Mirai got a boost because they were seen as the top US ladies this season and near locks for the Olympic team.

While I think Nagasu's result of 2nd was correct, I think she didnt really receive a boost either, or atleast not as much. Tennell and Chen, not Tennell and Nagasu, were the ones who received the obvious scoring boost, and in Chen's case it was crucial as the boost she got vs international scoring that Wagner did not get put her on the team over Wagner for the 3rd spot. It was also a bit inexplicable as Chen has not had a good season either, but I guess she is seen by USFSA as more of their future (which is obvious as Wagner is in her final season and Chen is young and talented) and a better investment moving forward.

 

[Cleo1782]

Agnes was not held up at Nationals. She in fact deserved 2nd over overrated Csizny in 2012 and overrated Gracie Gold in 2013. Even with her mistakes, remember those girls made a lot of mistakes too, more than her over the 2 programs in fact.

I would honestly have to watch the events again. Czisny was held up, but I remember thinking everyone else was kind of blah too, so I thought it was okay. I thought Gracie was great in the lp in 2013, but had huge sp errors. I always was surprised Agnes ended up on the podium when she did, but again I don't think I have watched either event since I saw it live, so maybe I am not remembering it clearly. I always thought the USFS placed Agnes a bit high based on her potential more so than her skating that day until 2014 when they gave her zero benefit of the doubt. I mean Agnes was 7th in the fs both years she medaled and Courtney Hicks was really good in 2013 too. 2012 I am having a tough time remembering.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Thank you.

I can't help but roll my eyes whenever I read theories about "the judges" doing this or that... as if the USFS instructs all of its judges to purposely hold down/boost a particular skater/team, regardless of what is put down on the ice on a given day.

At Nationals this year, Ross Miner could have received low enough PCS scores to keep him off the podium: that didn't happen. Adam and Jason could have been held up as locks for 2nd and 3rd at Nationals: that didn't happen. Ashley was considered a lock for the Olympic team and could have been held up: that didn't happen. The Shibs could have been boosted to retain their status as US #1: that didn't happen.

I believe most judging is as fair as can be expected, considering the inherent subjectivity of the sport.

I do think the judging of U.S Nationals is political but compared to some other countries it is clearly not the worst. I would say it is on par with say Canada, and not nearly as bad as say Russia. What they did to Voronov at this years Russian Nationals just the latest example.

 

[pinky166]

While I think Nagasu's result of 2nd was correct, I think she didnt really receive a boost either, or atleast not as much. Tennell and Chen, not Tennell and Nagasu, were the ones who received the obvious scoring boost, and in Chen's case it was crucial as the boost she got vs international scoring that Wagner did not get put her on the team over Wagner for the 3rd spot. It was also a bit inexplicable as Chen has not had a good season either, but I guess she is seen by USFSA as more of their future (which is obvious as Wagner is in her final season and Chen is young and talented) and a better investment moving forward.

Uh did you see Mirai’s international scores this season? Nowhere near what she got at Nationals. I love Mirai but she got a big score boost at Nationals, though I do believe the 2nd place was correct

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Uh did you see Mirai’s international scores this season? Nowhere near what she got at Nationals. I love Mirai but she got a big score boost at Nationals, though I do believe the 2nd place was correct

Well she still got lower PCS than Tennell, and I believe she deserves higher PCS than someone like Tennell. I agree she got a boost but less than Tennell and Chen. IMO Chen got the biggest boost of everyone considering how she skated at Nationals, including Tennell, and that was why Wagner was so peeved (rightfully), especialy as she was arguably robbed of the title last year, but this year was a more blatant robbing than last year vs the same skater. And Chen would not even break 120 for that same LP assuming the same < calls, which IMO were legit ones, internationally. Might even be around a 115.

 

[bardtoob]

At Nationals this year, Ross Miner could have received low enough PCS scores to keep him off the podium: that didn't happen. Adam and Jason could have been held up as locks for 2nd and 3rd at Nationals: that didn't happen.

Well ...

1) The audience has eyes.

2) Nationals means nothing now unless you are just out of Jr. or Sr. Sectionals.

3) Jason and Adam are great skaters, but they were just not impressive and getting old.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

I dont get the USFSA fascination with Rippon. He isnt even at the top in PCS unlike Brown who can match some of the best international men in PCS, but not Rippon. And IMO it is silly if that kind of body of work, which aint much of a body of work, is now sufficient to erase National results.

I honestly think he was mostly sent since the USFSA knew he would campaign LGT rights and it would create news and be positive impression. I think that is partly why Wagner got the nod in 2014 too.

 

[skatingguy]

I honestly think he was mostly sent since the USFSA knew he would campaign LGT rights and it would create news and be positive impression. I think that is partly why Wagner got the nod in 2014 too.

Or they had a very consistent season and then had there worst competition of the year at the National Championships. Seriously why do people think that the USFSA is either absolutely brilliant and would have this marketing scheme in mind when picking their Olympics team, or that the USFSA is completely incompetent for picking Rippon for having mediocre PCS?

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Or they had a very consistent season and then had there worst competition of the year at the National Championships. Seriously why do people think that the USFSA is either absolutely brilliant and would have this marketing scheme in mind when picking their Olympics team, or that the USFSA is completely incompetent for picking Rippon for having mediocre PCS?

The whole body of work concept should only be applied to skaters who really deserve it. To apply it to a skater like Rippon is IMO silly. To Zhou even more silly, when you consider he technically bypassed Miner for the team if they are giving Rippon a spot. And Brown who was 6th at Nationals even being put over Miner who was 2nd for 1st alternate to boot, are you freaking kidding me, LOL!

Wagner in 2014 was questionable enough and as you remember at the time it was a big controversy, but now it being used for skaters whose results and international status are even far beneath Wagner in 2012-2014 to boot. Since I know she isnt popular on this site I suspect most will try mocking this but Wagner did have an outside shot of a medal at the Games. In hindsight with how everyone skated it would have been impossible, but going in there was atleast an outside shot. Someone like Sotnikova ended up winning the gold and she wasnt considered better than Wagner pre Games, Wagner usually beat Sotnikova including both their meetings that season. Rippon doesnt have the tiniest prayer of a medal even if he has the skates of his life and the mens event is the ultimate splatfest, in fact I doubt he would be top 5 even then. And there isnt world spots on the line either, so what is the point of making exceptions for skaters like that. It used to be only used for a reigning world medalist who was injured. The only exceptions to that I can think of are Kerrigan but her circumstance was unique with the clubbing which would have led to USFSA cruficiation if she werent named, and despite the stunning 5th place at worlds was clearly considered the best or 2nd best in the world at the time, and where the alternative was a 13 year old girl. And Meno & Sand in 98, who are multi world medalists from the past, had finished top 5 at every Olympics and Worlds since 93, and amidst a depthless U.S pairs field. I realized times have changed, and they have made that clear but they are taking it to the point of it being silly now IMO.

They might as well just not hold Nationals anymore. They could have picked all the teams they had without Nationals, including ladies where I am pretty sure they were bent on Wagner not making it unless someone else (of the 3 intended) really splatted and she had been spectacular.

 

[Cleo1782]

I dont get the USFSA fascination with Rippon. He isnt even at the top in PCS unlike Brown who can match some of the best international men in PCS, but not Rippon. And IMO it is silly if that kind of body of work, which aint much of a body of work, is now sufficient to erase National results.

I honestly think he was mostly sent since the USFSA knew he would campaign LGT rights and it would create news and be positive impression. I think that is partly why Wagner got the nod in 2014 too.

I have never been a Rippon fan, but he impressed me this year. Years past I would agree whole heartedly, but this year he was consistent and solid and coming back from injury. I think the spot was really between Adam and Jason and Adam has been superior all season to Jason. In the end I would have chosen Ross, but realistically it was always going to be either Adam or Jason and Adam clearly outskated him all year.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

I have never been a Rippon fan, but he impressed me this year. Years past I would agree whole heartedly, but this year he was consistent and solid and coming back from injury. I think the spot was really between Adam and Jason and Adam has been superior all season to Jason. In the end I would have chosen Ross, but realistically it was always going to be either Adam or Jason and Adam clearly outskated him all year.

I agree they were choosing between Adam and Jason (and yes Adam was the correct choice between them if it comes to that based on Jason coming only 6th at Nationals especialy) which IMO shows how stupid this whole selection process has become. They were deciding which of the men who was 4th or 6th at Nationals, neither who is a past world medalist or even a past gpf medalist, or is in an international contender of any kind, would make the 3 man Olympic team. Silly. Zhou bypassing Miner after losing to him at Nationals doesnt even make sense, other than junior events success he doesnt have even decent senior results anywhere himself. They are going to continue to alienate the fan base, particularly the casual fan base who knows much less than even we do, who they are already struggling to keep as the lowest ever figure skating TV ratings in the U.S prove.

 

[gkelly]

They might as well just not hold Nationals anymore.

Nationals serves a lot more purposes than just choosing an Olympic team, or World team as well.

If you want to be hyperbolic about dismissing its importance for those purposes alone, how about "They might as well not count Nationals toward team selection at all any more."

Hey, they could choose the Olympic (and World?) team before Nationals and let those skaters skip Nationals if they like, or join the others in pursuing the title for its own sake, as they prefer.

Zhou bypassing Miner after losing to him at Nationals doesnt even make sense, other than junior events success he doesnt have even decent senior results anywhere himself.

This is not an official part of the selection criteria, but I do wonder whether there was some consideration of the fact that Zhou was passed over for the World team just last year and passing over the same skater for the 4th-place finisher 2 years in a row would be more controversial than doing it once to Miner.

Extending that line of thought even further, perhaps in 2014 some committee members thought "Well, Nagasu has already had one Olympic experience" and in 2018 "Wagner has already had been to an Olympics." Or that once upon a time when he was a young up-and-comer (albeit in an era when there was more emphasis on Nationals results in team selections), Miner had been given a World team opportunity in place of the more established J. Abbott who placed a fraction of a point behind him at Nationals.

I have no idea what goes on in the committee discussions or in the committee members' heads. But it wouldn't surprise me if that was at least tiny part of some members' thought processes.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

ITA on things that factored into the USFSA decision to ultimately go the way they did. I had forgotten about Zhou being bypassed for Worlds last year. While that was a bit different in nature, I think Zhou and his coach both agreed World Juniors was more beneficial, it still would have probably created an even bigger controversy if a part of the U.S future had been bypassed two years in a row, which is probably why they settled on Miner instead.

I also agree with the thinking of Wagner vs Nagasu 4 years ago.

 

[coppertop1]

I disagree about Ashley. I think she was widely seen as a lock on an OLY spot. Whether or not they were dumped is a different question. I think that can be argued either way.

She was but people thought to be a lock by many (myself included). Though perhaps we were a bit hasty on that. Bradie Tennell played the spoiler but even without that,
Nagasu, Chen and Bell were all wild cards. Nagasu was more consistent so I had a feeling she'd be on the team. Tennell's bronze at SA gave her a good chance to go. Ashley was usually reliable at Nationals. So, you five skaters fighting for three spots.

I see why people say she was dumped but she never lived up to her silver medal. She had two lacklustre seasons in a row. So did Chen but Chen beat Ashley at last year's Nationals and Worlds. I think that's what it came down to.

 

[aftershocks]

I know the judges may score a skater to "give them the message" to hang up their skates. There is the perception that it's been done to Mirai and Adam, but they persevered and made the 2018 US Olympic team.

Has the USFSA ever told a skater, "Hang up your skates. You're past your prime. Even if you win Nationals, any Grand Prix events or even the Grand Prix Final, we will still keep you off the Worlds and/or Olympic team."

Well, they notoriously were down on Johnny Weir after his problems in 2003 Natls fp when he fell into the boards and was actually injured and couldn't complete his fp. Johnny had to fight hard to make it back the next season going through regionals and smaller comps prior to Nationals where he famously skated great and won his first (of three) U.S. National championships. But it was because of his own determination, and his amazing talent. Johnny has said he was told point blank at some point prior to 2004 Nationals that U.S. fed officials were not going to do him 'any favors.' It meant that a certain faction were down on him and therefore would not be backing him. Johnny was too talented to ignore, but Evan was the favorite of U.S. fed going forward, especially when Evan was sent to Worlds in 2005 over Matt Savoie who skated better than Evan. Of course, Evan went on to come back from a poor sp at Worlds to win the bronze medal. Johnny had an injured foot that year and he was U.S. National champ again, but he only got 5th at Worlds mysteriously. Jeff Buttle got silver with two falls in the fp, and Lambiel (in the absence of injured Plushy) won Worlds gold with his exquisite talent, but also with minor errors in his program.

As far as whether U.S. fed ever flat-out told a skater to retire, possibly it was hinted or flat-out told to Rudy Galindo after he won Nationals and placed third at Worlds in 1996. For many skaters though, the writing is most certainly on the wall in the marks they are handed out on occasion, no matter how well they perform.

 

[aftershocks]

Zhou was passed over for the World team

Zhou did not have minimums for senior Worlds last year, as he withdrew from Golden Spin, likely due to his team not anticipating he would make the podium at 2017 Nationals. They were focused on Vincent doing well at U.S. Nats in 2017 and being selected for Junior Worlds. Even Vincent said after winning silver last year at Nats that he hadn't anticipated being on the podium. It gave him a huge confidence boost. And then others who were expected to win Jr. Worlds faltered, and Vincent skated great and won unexpectedly. Thereafter Vincent has been decidedly ahead of schedule with his own and his fans' expectations. I think Ross should have been allowed to go to the Olympics over Vincent, and Vincent could have been sent to 4CCs and Worlds to show what he can do. Vincent did not have a great GP season. He's doing a bit of over-reaching IMHO, trying to follow in Nathan's bootsteps with the quads. I think Vincent needs to mature a bit more physically and gain more speed and consistency.

So no, Vincent was not 'passed over' for the World team last year. He was fortunate to take silver at Nationals with Adam out injured and Jason skating at less than full strength due to injury. @bardtoob mentioned earlier that Jason is old. Not the last time I looked. Unless you think Jason's courageous efforts to master quads are giving him gray hairs and wearing out his body!

 

[bardtoob]

@bardtoob mentioned earlier that Jason is old. Not the last time I looked. Unless you think Jason's courageous efforts to master quads are giving him gray hairs and wearing out his body!

Maybe Jason should be given the advice so many give to Mirai Nagasu, learn to rotate your standard jumps first, such as the 3A, then try harder jumps later. Then maybe Jason can work on the same jumps as the Jr. Russian Ladies, Sr. Russian men, etc. Maybe in 4 years Jason can perform like Ross at US Nationals this year, although Ross is 26 this year and Jason will be 27 in 2022.

 

[aftershocks]

learn to rotate your standard jumps first, such as the 3A, then try harder jumps later.

Apparently you've never landed a quad or even practiced one before @bardtoob? I mean, neither have I, but I do realize that in the pursuit of almighty quad, well-mastered triples are quite often adversely affected. And perhaps more-so when a skater is tired or dealing with all variety of competition stress.

 

[bardtoob]

Apparently you've never landed a quad or even practiced one before @bardtoob? I mean, neither have I, but I do realize that in the pursuit of almighty quad, well-mastered triples are quite often adversely affected. And perhaps more-so when a skater is tired or dealing with all variety of competition stress.

But I said that I only want Jason to rotate his 3As now, then maybe perform like Ross this year, at 26, but Jason will be 27 in 2022.

I think that is pretty reasonable.

Jason is such a lovely skater that maybe he will be given all 10s in PCS one day, and it will put him in a position that makes up for at least what Denis Ten, the reigning Olympic Bronze Medalist, is doing in TES base.

 

[aftershocks]

Jason is such a lovely skater that maybe he will be given all 10s in PCS one day, and it will put him in a position that makes up for at least what Denis Ten, the reigning Olympic Bronze Medalist, is doing in TES base.

But bardtoob, Denis is skating with injuries and whatever variety of mental stress that's going on for him, plus he has no benefit of a powerful fed behind him. Judges also seemed down on Denis for the petitioning on his behalf that occurred post 2013 Worlds, even though that result and aftermath was the judges' fault and not anything to do with Denis (he accepted the silver medal happily at Worlds that year).

As far as Jason maybe being given all 10s on PCS some day, I doubt it. He already deserves at least 46 on PCS now, but judges tend to keep him in the range of 44. Alas, if he could master quads and not have his 3-axel and other triples affected, he would deserve all perfect marks in my book. What we fail to keep in mind though, is that it's hard to do all of the nuanced beautiful things Jason does and have the mental and physical energy left to land even one quad, let alone two.

At 4CCs, we see a fairly average but nice skater like Tanaka who can eke out quads (sort of Japan's version of Grant Hochstein) getting 42 on PCS. It's got to be some fed influence there. In addition, I suppose Tanaka was placed slightly ahead of Jason in the sp due to Jason's turn-out on the 3-axel. But Tanaka was over-scored on PCS. So was Boyang, but that's always the case with Boyang being a big-gun quadster 110% backed by his fed. Tanaka at least has a better feel for the music than Boyang. The thing about Boyang though, aside from quad-lutz triple humongous points, is that he's a very good learner and so he's improved in his performance abilities by practicing hard. He's not unique nor original though. He still skates over his music, albeit they are packaging him pretty well. Boyang is more of an athlete than a well-rounded athlete/artist on the ice. Meanwhile, Han Yan (even with his technical inconsistencies) is much more of an athlete/artist with much better skating skills than Boyang too.

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Denis got the bronze at the 2014 Olympics when it easily could have gone to Fernandez (some thought should have) so I dont think the judges were down on him. He probably is docked by judges for not being more consistent which led to his controversial loss at the 2013 Worlds amongst other things. The same happened in years past to skaters like Butyrskaya, Nikodinov, Kwiatkowski, Sandhu, Abbott, even their better performances werent properly rewarded since they werent more consistent.

 

[aftershocks]

Denis got the bronze at the 2014 Olympics when it easily could have gone to Fernandez (some thought should have) so I dont think the judges were down on him. He probably is docked by judges for not being more consistent which led to his controversial loss at the 2013 Worlds amongst other things.

Really? Well let me refresh some memories:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jP-mZzStD4U Javi sp 2014 Olympics -- a number of silly errors
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=93pVezToE4c Javi fp 2014 Olympics -- great start but fizzled, tripling a planned quad and doubling at least 3 planned triples; minor issue of falling out slightly on another jump; added to the errors, Javi was still trying to figure out his stylistic niche with his coaching team and choreographer -- these programs were okay on Javi's journey forward, but the fp is a tepid copy of a Spy character theme originated by the very artistic Jeremy Abbott

Denis Ten is a superb artist on the ice, with a great deal more range and nuance than Javi artistically. Whoever can't see that, I feel sorry for you. The judges always loved Denis' aesthetic talents, but again he has had no powerful fed backing. Denis scrambled his way eloquently to the bronze medal in Sochi, and he earned it, whether or not he's your favorite skater! He's always had to struggle with physical problems too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Ucv7j-Zzz4 D10 sp despite the silly hand down on opening quad that caused his slip and fall, the rest was absolutely gorgeous and even the quad entry and air position was spectacular; the choreo and interpretation of the music, and the way he weaved elements seamlessly one into the other is head and shoulders above Javi's sp; again anyone who can't see that, too bad
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tUfBnXL8l2I D10 fp again, brilliant choreographically and presentation-wise, as well as technically better overall than what Javi managed -- the only issues for D10 was a slight hand down on a solo triple near the end and slowness on the second part of a combo spin near the end where he said he tired; after that though he mustered enough energy to end the program with enthusiasm and brio; notice that the judges did not go overboard on his marks either, so other guys who skated after Denis had chances to pass him and they didn't
A great effort in a less than stellar men's competition in Sochi.

Here's Denis looking back at his 2014 Olympics performances -- a quite fascinating and introspective analysis of his skating, and of his emotions during that time: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A3WOdHzLr88

ETA: I'm not sure why you characterize Denis winning the silver medal at Worlds 2013 as 'a controversial loss.' It was a spectacular victory. The controversy was over how the judges scored Patrick's messy fp. Denis' sp/fp bravura performances to The Artist theme were memorable and innovative (thanks in part to valuable input by Stephane Lambiel, although choreographed by Lori Nichol):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jkz9jG7pwrk Eurosport D10 2013 sp
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uQnaSZVZWXs CBC D10 2013 sp

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iwdb-QbCsQs CBC D10 2013 fp par excellence (the doubled triples toward end, only one can be counted as a minor error, and so what; Denis earned this, and arguably he should have won, but whatever, his performances were a huge victory & a breakthrough for him)

 

[butyrskafanatic]

Regardless of your views there were many on goldenskate and here also I recall who said they would have had it the other way around. I am not neccessarily one of them but it doesnt change that it was still debated at the time. Even if Ten deserved the bronze the judges could have easily gone the other way and it wouldnt have created any controversy and they chose to go with him over a bigger name skater. They then gave him another medal and a win in the LP at the 2015 worlds, which he could have won if he didnt fall in his short program. They gave him huge scores which were close to the WR scores at the time at the 2015 Four Continent event which he won handily. There is no actual evidence of the judges being down on him post the 2013 worlds controversy talk, if anything he seemed to get marked more favorably/fairly due to that talk in the enusing years.

As for federation power, given that I was referencing a skater from Spain do you seriously think Spain is a powerful federation with political power in the sport, hardly anymore than a bottom feeder like Kazaghstan. Now when he lost worlds in 2013 to Chan, that probably was a huge factor as Skate Canada is one of the most powerful, influential, political, and corrupt federations in the sport.

 

[Debbie S]

Since this thread is about USFS, i.e. U.S. skaters, I'm not sure why we are discussing Javi and Denis (and I am a fan of both).