Hanyu vs Chen PCS

[jersey1302]

We seemed to have struck a cord!! Thoughts? I just don’t see Chen being with in a point if Yuzuru.. come see with us

https://youtu.be/A-uMeJuig5o

 

[skateboy]

Maybe one point is too close, but I don't think it's a night and day difference between them.

 

[Marco]

I am surprised as well. When Nathan finished, I felt it was going to be kind of close, at least for the free, because I felt Hanyu would win PCS by a few points.

 

[Frau Muller]

Chen skates with more spine (gravitas). Pooh is more loosey-goosey.

 

[IceAlisa]

I am surprised as well. When Nathan finished, I felt it was going to be kind of close, at least for the free, because I felt Hanyu would win PCS by a few points.

Hanyu WAS ahead in PCS by a bit. He has better SS, so maybe it should have been by a few points more. But otherwise, their PCS were fine and overall result would not have been affected.
The suggestion that I came across on Twitter that Hanyu should have won is absurd.

The PCS that do bother me are Vincent Zhou’s and Tursy’s

 

[Marco]

I wasn't paying attention to the TES tracker and wasn't sure if Nathan was doing enough technically to compensate for supposedly lower PCS.

Having looked at the protocols, everything made sense.

 

[kosjenka]

For a tribute to Plushenko, Hanyu made sure to be as choreography friendly to the Platinum King as possible.

 

[briancoogaert]

To be really honest, Hanyu's free is empty... His music, choreo are nothing special, and I found him really tentative. I'm so disappointed by Hanyu's programs this season.

 

[Meoima]

To be really honest, Hanyu's free is empty... His music, choreo are nothing special, and I found him really tentative. I'm so disappointed by Hanyu's programs this season.

I disagree with your expression about “empty”. If you know skating, basic turns and all, you know that Yuzuru’s programs have many skating transitions. It is fine you do not like the program, but his skating transitions are there to count.

 

[bardtoob]

To be really honest, Hanyu's free is empty... His music, choreo are nothing special, and I found him really tentative. I'm so disappointed by Hanyu's programs this season.

To be honest, Chen's short is a complete unrepairable disaster.

 

[wickedwitch]

Hanyu at his best in the LP should be getting high 9s. This LP was not Hanyu at his best. Low to mid 9s were appropriate.

Chen at his best in the LP should be getting low 9s. This was Chen at his LP best. (I strongly prefer Chen's SPs, where I think mid and occasionally even high 9s are appropriate.) So while I would have increased the PCS margin by a point or so, I thought the judge's marks were reasonable regarding Chen and Hanyu. I personally would have had Hanyu around 92-93 and Chen around 90-91.

I think Hanyu has better SS and does a better job interpreting the music, especially in the LP, but his body lines are often sloppy, especially compared to Chen. And while normally, Hanyu should be well ahead of Chen on transitions, the margin was essentially nothing with this program.

 

[meer]

If Nathan skated first Hanyu would may have gotten a few more points, but nothing outrageous. Or Nathan a few less points. Maybe 95-96 Hanyu, 92-93 Nathan? Something like that.

I just don't think Hanyu massively outscores Nathan in every part of PCS. SS and trans yes, but the interpretation, composition and performance? Well, not really. Flip a coin.

But I do think Hanyu does those big epic moments (like the ina bauer) better than Nathan, but Nathan just isn't that type of skater.

 

[Carolla5501]

Personally this program was not up the Hanyu hype. So scoring seemed reasonable. I think some people are giving him "reputation" points

 

[Birdseye]

Honestly both Hanyu and Chen have qualities in their skating the merritt some components to be high, but they both have rather glaring deficiencies which merritt lower components in other areas. Neither of them deserve 9's in my opinion. TBH the only skater of the last decade who would consistently deserved high 9's would be Patrick Chan. All the top men have things they could work on. Hanyu needs better carriage, edge quality, extension and musicality. Nathan needs more speed, deeper edges, more variety in transitions and more consistent musical expression. Jason brown would up be there with Patrick Chan, but his blade control and speed are sometimes lacking. Shoma is probably the closest to Patrick in terms of blade control, speed and carriage, but his transitions are often really lacking and his musicality goes in and out.

 

[MAXSwagg]

Why do people continuously try to lie? Hanyu’s programs always have the most intricate and difficult transitions, his ice coverage is the best by far, and he always has the best commitment to his programs. The are not things only from my mouth.

Nathan’s SP was okay but his free skate has absolutely no interpretation, expression, or substantive transitions (unless you are like Raf and thinking winking counts as transitions). It’s not as terrible as Bincent but frankly doesn’t isnr any better than Boyang, this time around (who skated with more speed, actually). Hanyu may have posture issues, but Chen brings absolutely no energy and projection in his free skate - especially the first third - despite his posture. His arms and upper body movements rarely show any connection to the music, whereas Hanyu and even Shoma highlight nuances in the texture of the music. He also does not always point his toe either, and his camel positions are rather horrific for someone who supposedly has good line.

I also never knew it was okay to trash on someone who had a significant injury and is still recovering. Anybody else try to prepare incredibly difficult programs with a jacked ankle.

The components were not as disgraceful as Tursy or Vincent; Nathan obviously deserves to win but it was too close (mind you, I did not have Hanyu in the 90s for PCS). Though I can accept the argument that they should be close at this championship since Hanyu did not have time to adequately prepare. But don’t lie about things that are fact band can be backed up with analyses (many of which have been done). I don’t think anyone’s PCS has ever risen so fast;very similar to Julia and Adelina right before Sochi though I think even theirs rose more slowly than Nathan’s has. And people say Russia is the big bad fed who plays games? Lol

Also, several of the GOEs were also very odd, and Hanyu’s 4S was not under-rotated if you actuallly look at where the blade left the ice, which shows again that the ISU has no idea how to address this issue.

 

[Meoima]

To be honest, Chen's short is a complete unrepairable disaster.

Raf technically describes his student’s (Nate) programs as set up - jump - exist.

I do not want to argue with people about PCS as each has their own version. As long as the judges like the programs, 1 foot skating or 2 foot skating do not matter, that is how I have learned.

But it is funny to me when some people accuse Hanyu of “empty programs” when in reality his programs are as packed as he could. Say whatever about his style as you do not prefer it. But his skating transitions are always there and could not be denied as zero.

The same could not be said about Nathan though, when his own coach literally admits there is just set up, jump and exit. I guess Raf does know what are skating transitions.

 

[IceAlisa]

Hanyu's issues in PCS aren't just posture. So many times during the program he drops character entirely, his body goes slack, arms dangle by his side. This really takes away from IN for me. And this FS is just not a good vehicle. The music should elevate him, not water him down. See Chopin, see Seimei.

The GOE on his jumps weren't what they normally can be. Very little flow out of some of them and issues with landing. The skate was laborious, he came to what seemed a complete stop at times. He has and can do much better, just not this time. He is, after all, still injured.

Nathan did better IMO at Nats in terms of port de bras and SS, mostly I am guessing because he had been with Raf for a few weeks leading to the comp. Here he went straight to Japan and it showed in terms of his edges not being as deep and arms more chaotic. But to say he didn't interpret the music, that he doesn't have a style is to be purely partisan.

 

[skateboy]

Raf technically describes his student’s (Nate) programs as set up - jump - exist.

This is the first I've heard of Raf's describing Nathan's programs in this way. Would you provide a link, please?

 

[Tahuu]

Different taste. Different style. Different poison.

Yuzu - Feminine, flowy, flowery, pink and sequin.
2019 Worlds exhibition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k-jt-w2wB3I

Nathan - Masculine, modern, edgy, B/W and simplicity.
2019 Worlds exhibition: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGhTsv67wDs

 

[AxelAnnie]

Raf technically describes his student’s (Nate) programs as set up - jump - exist.

I would love to know the context in which Raf said this............if indeed he said it at all.

If he was saying.......it is amazing that Nathan gets all that choreography into his program, because technically his programs are setup-jump-exit.

THAT I could see Raf saying.

 

[Meoima]

This is the first I've heard of Raf's describing Nathan's programs in this way. Would you provide a link, please?

Technically Raf himself describes Nathan’s current programs exactly as Set up - Jump - Exit. And even said “it gets boring” (I guess he meant “after a while”)
https://twitter.com/theannawatson/status/1110151406667907072?s=21

 

[Meoima]

I would love to know the context in which Raf said this............if indeed he said it at all.

If he was saying.......it is amazing that Nathan gets all that choreography into his program, because technically his programs are setup-jump-exit.

THAT I could see Raf saying.

Nah, Raf did not say anything about choreography. He described it as it is.
https://rsport.ria.ru/20190325/1552068601.html

 

[skateboy]

Technically Raf himself describes Nathan’s current programs exactly as Set up - Jump - Exit. And even said “it gets boring” (I guess he meant “after a while”)
https://twitter.com/theannawatson/status/1110151406667907072?s=21

Thanks for the link... that's not exactly what Raf said. He said that they've been accused of that, and he did not deny that they did that... but just for Nathan's big jumps (and only in the long program). He did not say that the entirety of Nathan's programs are "Set up - jump - exit."

 

[AxelAnnie]

Nah, Raf did not say anything about choreography. He described it as it is.
https://rsport.ria.ru/20190325/1552068601.html

Well, that would clear it all up if I spoke Russian. Thanks, though.

This from Phil Hersh for NBC Sports with quotes form Raf.
By any measure, Nathan Chen’s performance at Worlds matches standard for transcendent greatness

No wonder Arutunian told me by telephone Saturday that this was the first time in 44 years of coaching he felt complete happiness over one of his skaters’ performances and the work he had accomplished to help the skater do it. That doesn’t mean Arutunian felt Chen has done all he can.

“He should skate better than that,” Arutunian said. “He has no choice. The sport does not stay in one spot. I just hope Yale will give me more time to help him do that.”
[/QUOTE]
This does not sound like Raf thinks Chen's program was set up - jump - exit. Perhaps the second part of what Raf said got convoluted.

I loved this from Kurt Browning:

“I can’t put it into perspective because I do not understand how he can go to school, train all those quads and then perform so well – AND do it like it was nothing,” Kurt Browning of Canada, a four-time world champion, said in a text message Saturday after watching Chen win his second straight world title. “He looked so calm and made winning Worlds look ‘easy.’”

 

[shine]

This is the first I've heard of Raf's describing Nathan's programs in this way. Would you provide a link, please?

It's in this interview he gave in Russian: https://www.fsuniverse.net/forum/threads/vaytsekhovskayas-interview-with-rafael-arutyunyan.105448/ toward the end of the section where he discussed Nathan. I see this as a positive sign that he's noting these shortcomings and intends to address them with Nathan in the future, if time permits.

 

[Meoima]

Thanks for the link... that's not exactly what Raf said. He said that they've been accused of that, and he did not deny that they did that... but just for Nathan's big jumps (and only in the long program). He did not say that the entirety of Nathan's programs are "Set up - jump - exit."

You must have missed this part:
“I’d like to see completely different programs in his interpretation. In performing the elements, in the build up. Where is the joy now? (He does) entry, jump, exist. Another jump, another exit. (His) jumps were cool. But it gets boring to look at such skating (after a while I guess?).”
In short, Raf knows his student’s weaknesses and even disagreed with the reporter saying the current way could go on for a long term.

 

[Vash01]

Chen’s PCS should not be anywhere near Hanyu’s but judges have always given very high PCS to skaters (male and female) who landed the most jumps. That doesn’t make it right.This has been my complaint for a long time. Yuzuru’s artistry and choreography was wonderful, despite his injury.

 

[Vash01]

We seemed to have struck a cord!! Thoughts? I just don’t see Chen being with in a point if Yuzuru.. come see with us

https://youtu.be/A-uMeJuig5o

I hate watching discussions or lectures on videos. So my comments will be related to the skating, rather than the discussion on this yt.

 

[meer]

Of course Raf is going to disagree with the reporter. He just wants Nathan to leave Yale , come back to Cali and become a more complete skater with him. He downplays Nathan a lot while the press tries to praise him, it's not anything new. He knows Nathan could be better than he is now and has high expectations. After nationals the only thing he said about Nathan was being mad he didn't add in his 4S. I still don't think he's trashing Nathan's programs as much as some seem to want him to be.

And people should be happy since it answers the question if they realize he still needs to improve in some areas. Yes, they do realize that. Aim for even higher PCS Nathan, you can do it.

 

[Alexa]

Shae-Lynn has this to say about Nathan

https://olympics.nbcsports.com/team/figure-skating-3/

“Shae-Lynn Bourne, the Canadian ice dance world champion who choreographed Chen’s short programs the past two seasons, said she has concentrated on getting him to share his personality with the audience and the judges by expressing himself and the program’s story in every movement.

“If you start from that place, people will feel something,” Bourne said. “They won’t just see it as going from element to element.

“It’s not easy to really share something of your personality. Nathan was willing to try from the first time we worked together. Each time I see him, it comes out even more.

“It’s like it is all clicking, and because it’s all clicking, he is starting to cover all the (PCS) bases, to show the whole package. It’s not just the steps but how he does the steps, the presence in each step. It’s not just doing the jumps but how he goes in and how he lands and goes out of the jumps. It’s the ride of the blade so it doesn’t feel like he is setting up for jumps: they just arrive. It’s affecting everything about how people see him and perceive him on the ice.”