Gracie Gold set to return

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Willin

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@overedge Yup. That's why I'm calling them allegations. While TSL is right about a lot of things, the more scandalous the allegation the more likely it's wrong or never has any credible evidence. In fact, during their segment they admitted they'd never verified that he had a legal history in France (because they don't know how to search French legal records).
That being said, it might be true - I have nothing to say it isn't true and I've never been in one of the loops that involved people who know Vincent or rumors about it so it would make sense I hadn't heard anything. I just don't know what evidence they have. If someone digs out those French legal records I'd be interested to see them.
 

Polaris

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@overedge Yup. That's why I'm calling them allegations. While TSL is right about a lot of things, the more scandalous the allegation the more likely it's wrong or never has any credible evidence. In fact, during their segment they admitted they'd never verified that he had a legal history in France (because they don't know how to search French legal records).
That being said, it might be true - I have nothing to say it isn't true and I've never been in one of the loops that involved people who know Vincent or rumors about it so it would make sense I hadn't heard anything. I just don't know what evidence they have. If someone digs out those French legal records I'd be interested to see them.

They said it's searchable and to look it up.

I would be VERY surprised if they made these allegations without having sufficient evidence, as this is a big defamation lawsuit waiting to happen if they're wrong.
 

Debbie S

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Defamation is generally hard to prove (and I think Dave was a paralegal at one point (?), so he might know something about that) so he may not be too worried.
 

kwanfan1818

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Audience are paying for the tickets at GP event, where participants are expected to have a certain level/quality of skating. Organizers are selling these tickets to compensate for the expenses, part of which are tickets and hotels for the competitors.

If people buy the ISU's koolaid about GP being the "best of the best" and buy tickets on that basis, they are not informed: by the rules themselves, 1/3 of the initial selection can be anyone up to SB 75 -- the number of Ladies who met the GP minimum in 2017-18 was well over SB 100 -- and the alternates rules are weak when there are withdrawals, and even those aren't even followed. (And that's assuming that they want to see the best skating and not simply to see their skaters with the highest placements.) The non-USFS hosts, which are selling those tickets to pay for the event, would not be marketing Gracie Gold: they're marketing local skaters and the Japanese skaters, because it's mainly local fans and Japanese fans who are attending. (If USFS had been marketing Gold for Skate America, then there would be an issue, both with USFS' credibility and with audience expectations.) Plus, in nearly every event, there are skaters who underperform, because they are injured, unprepared, ill, jetlagged, and/or undertrained, as well as skaters who are using the event to try out new programs, get feedback, and aren't even trying to be their best at that point in the season, because that would make little sense in the big picture.

Ticket buyers should expect nothing more or less from GP, no matter how the ISU tries to brand it. You buy a ticket, and you get to see a bunch of skaters and teams who have earned their spots based on the rules and past results compete as is. Or you don't buy a ticket.
 

ChiquitaBanana

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@overedge Yup. That's why I'm calling them allegations. While TSL is right about a lot of things, the more scandalous the allegation the more likely it's wrong or never has any credible evidence. In fact, during their segment they admitted they'd never verified that he had a legal history in France (because they don't know how to search French legal records).
That being said, it might be true - I have nothing to say it isn't true and I've never been in one of the loops that involved people who know Vincent or rumors about it so it would make sense I hadn't heard anything. I just don't know what evidence they have. If someone digs out those French legal records I'd be interested to see them.

I’ve just ask in the French thread. Someone ought to know, that’s the place where to find...
 

overedge

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Defamation is generally hard to prove (and I think Dave was a paralegal at one point (?), so he might know something about that) so he may not be too worried.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/david-lease-767487ba

IME if you say someone has a criminal record, and they don't, and saying that they do could have a negative impact on their ability to earn a living, then there's a basis for a defamation lawsuit. Unless Dave wants to get up in court and argue that TSL has so few listeners that the allegations wouldn't have reached enough people to have an effect :lol:
 

Rob

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I was hoping she’d be ready to perform the choreography with feeling even if she popped all the jumps.
 

Firedancer

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TSL had a rather good response to the Gracie situation and I commend them for it. I find it hard to disagree with their thoughts.

I agree with this. I thought they and NBC did a good job with it. I do think she could likely use a more experienced coach to help her through her comeback. In addition to that, what TSL said about her current coach is very concerning.
 

Debbie S

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If Dave truly has some sort of info on her coach and he is actually concerned, he can contact USFS and Safe Sport. But that wouldn't get him page views (talk about someone who craves attention). The fact that he chooses to instead throw out innuendo to his 'captive' audience with a twinkle in his eye tells you all you need to know.
 

Tavi

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I don't believe that Operalia organizers are paying for participants' tickets, hotel and stay... So if they come unprepared, it is their own expense.


Audience are paying for the tickets at GP event, where participants are expected to have a certain level/quality of skating. Organizers are selling these tickets to compensate for the expenses, part of which are tickets and hotels for the competitors.

If the invitees to GP events paid for their own tickets/hotels/miscl expenses, or if their Feds did, that would be another story. If money are spent on you, you must deliver the minimum expected, or not come.

I am sure we will not agree on this... :lol:

Wrong about Operalia, they pay travel and lodging for 40 finalists,and the audience buys tickets:

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/38cde7_65e81f8cf81c4e22ad72ae1b25c2b552.pdf

https://mobile.twitter.com/operaliacomp/status/1009180116176592897?lang=en

You’re obviously a smart person, so Im not sure why you don’t get that your expectations are yours, not the ISU’s. I noticed that in another post you brushed off the idea that the Russian organizers would know anything about Gracie’s situation. You keep trying to put the responsibility on Gracie, but the way the rules are, the risk is theirs.
 

Flora

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Do these allegations have anything to do with Ting Cui leaving him? Based on his instagram, there seemed to be some drama surrounding her departure.
 

AxelAnnie

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That is not a valid analogy, IMO. If someone earned a spot to compete in Placido Domingo's "Operalia," then there is no obligation to be in any shape for the competition, and a singer who was coming back from voice issues, woke up that morning being indisposed, etc. would have every right to compete. Of course, they would receive the same criticism that Gracie correct for Placido Domingo going onstage to sing in front of customers who are paying for a performance, not a competition. If he were indisposed, but decided to sing, someone from Management/Stage Management would appear before the curtain and announce that Placido Domingo -- or Jonas Kaufmann or Roberto Alagna, as actually happened so far since the Met opened its season this year -- has a cold/is indisposed/etc. but has graciously agreed to sing, and ask for [the audience's] understanding and indulgence. Twice this week I don't think there was a pre-show announcement for Mariusz Kwiecien, who sang only Act I of "The Pearl Fishers" and then was replaced by Alexander Birch Elliott, who sounded great over the airwaves, and is a Barihunk to boot.

And even at her best, internationally, Gold was closer to Kwiecien than Domingo, and more like the Ulrika than the Amelia, especially in that field, although being Kwiecien is nothing to sneeze
Wrong about Operalia, they pay travel and lodging for 40 finalists,and the audience buys tickets:

https://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/38cde7_65e81f8cf81c4e22ad72ae1b25c2b552.pdf

https://mobile.twitter.com/operaliacomp/status/1009180116176592897?lang=en

You’re obviously a smart person, so Im not sure why you don’t get that your expectations are yours, not the ISU’s. I noticed that in another post you brushed off the idea that the Russian organizers would know anything about Gracie’s situation. You keep trying to put the responsibility on Gracie, but the way the rules are, the risk is theirs.

Not quite. If I am buying a ticket for an event, I fully expect the people advertised to be there will be there. I also expect a certain level of proficiency by the participants. That is what I paid for, and that is what I deserve to see. The responsibility was on Gracie, USFS and her coaches. She should have been monitored (as was Nancy Kerrigan) - and I believe Michelle was too. At least Michell had the integrity to withdraw from the OLYS in time for Sara Hughes to be brought in to participate.

I don't know what went on behind the scenes. I do know Gracie was not ready to be there, as she proved. It was, evidently too much for her. The inconsistency for me is you have two things going on:

1. Gracie coming back "on her own terms"
2. Gracie withdrawing knowing she was not ready.

What, she didn't know 5 days before that she wasn't ready?
And, if she was skating on "her own terms" why did she withdraw?

People have bad skates........... This was not a bad skate. She just was not prepared. Were she prepared and just had a bad skate, she would have skated in the FS ---ask Nathan. Ask any skater who has had a disastrous short, but still showed up in the FS.

I suspect the last place Gracie should be right now is at a FS competition. She is not ready physically, and it would appear she is not ready mentally.

And I say that out of concern for Gracie. I don't know who thought her participation in a GP was a good idea for Gracie. It wasn't. And if Gracie thought it was (and she may have thought it was) then the professionals around her should have saved her from herself.
 

kwanfan1818

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Not quite. If I am buying a ticket for an event, I fully expect the people advertised to be there will be there. I also expect a certain level of proficiency by the participants. That is what I paid for, and that is what I deserve to see
As @Tavi responded to Tinami Amori above, those are your expectations and not the ISU's, and they/the hosts have no obligation to deliver that to you, although they know full well that their behavior may keep you from buying a ticket.

If a host advertises specific skaters to sell tickets after they know the skaters will not attend, then that is a sleazy, if not illegal, practice and a separate issue. Similarly, almost every theater, ballet, and opera ticket says that not only casting, but the program itself might change, and you get what you get, but if they advertise Jonas Kaufmann after they know they are going to replace him with a cover, or if they know they are swapping Cav/Pag for Gotterdammerung, but still advertise Cav/Pag, they need to be slapped.

Wrong about Operalia, they pay travel and lodging for 40 finalists,and the audience buys tickets:
They'd better, with Rolex sponsoring the thing, it had better be classy :)

I often remember an interview with Hvorostovsky about when he competed in Singer of the World, when it was still Soviet times, and he was sent with a KGB handler. He had no money and found that he had to wear a tux. He borrowed money from the KGB guy to rent a tux, and he said he had to win, so that he could repay the guy from his prize money.
 

Vash01

Fan of Yuzuru, Three A's, T&M, P&C
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As @Tavi responded to Tinami Amori above, those are your expectations and not the ISU's, and they/the hosts have no obligation to deliver that to you, although they know full well that their behavior may keep you from buying a ticket.

If a host advertises specific skaters to sell tickets after they know the skaters will not attend, then that is a sleazy, if not illegal, practice and a separate issue. Similarly, almost every theater, ballet, and opera ticket says that not only casting, but the program itself might change, and you get what you get, but if they advertise Jonas Kaufmann after they know they are going to replace him with a cover, or if they know they are swapping Cav/Pag for Gotterdammerung, but still advertise Cav/Pag, they need to be slapped.


They'd better, with Rolex sponsoring the thing, it had better be classy :)

I often remember an interview with Hvorostovsky about when he competed in Singer of the World, when it was still Soviet times, and he was sent with a KGB handler. He had no money and found that he had to wear a tux. He borrowed money from the KGB guy to rent a tux, and he said he had to win, so that he could repay the guy from his prize money.

Now I am curious. Did he win? He (Dmitri Hv.) is a great singer.
 

kwanfan1818

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Now I am curious. Did he win? He (Dmitri Hv.) is a great singer.
He did win Singer of the World in 1989. Bryn Terfel won the Song Prize that year. And Hvoro grabbed the trophy and raised it over his head, reminding me of how Napoleon crowned himself :lol: What I didn't know was the background of how he knew it was the way he was going to pay for his tux!

RIP Hvorostovsky.
 
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Foolhardy Ham Lint

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I am reminded of when Elaine Zayak came back in 1994, that she was given the option of skating at the national championships without having to pre-qualify at regionals and sectionals first.

She too hadn't competed as an eligible athlete for some time. In Elaine's case, it was for a decade.

From memory, I believe Zayak still went to Easterns and one international before going on to Detroit.
 

MsZem

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Thanks for the summary :)

Frederic Dambier has a legal history in France. He sued the FFSG to get sent to the 2006 Olympics ;)

It may well be that there are some issues, but it's not that easy to get a visa to the US, and any serious legal concerns would be a problem. I don't believe he's a US citizen? Assuming not, my guess is that TSL is overstating the case - which wouldn't be unprecedented.

If Gracie feels that this is the right coaching situation for her, that's what matters.
 
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cholla

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(I think it's Vincent Restencourt) has alot of red flags and a "legal history" in France that can be confirmed by searching French legal records.
Unlike in the US, French legal records are not public. To get your own official record, you need to write an official letter to the Attorney General ("Procureur de la République"). You can't access any records via the Internet. The only people who have complete access to legal records (called B1) are judges and lawyers. I think asking for your own record doesn't even give you access to the whole thing. Potential employers in some fields need to check their applicants' records (for instance if the job involves working with underage people) but they need to fill up an official document and even with it they won't be able to access the whole thing, only the most serious offenses if there are such things. So no, nothing can be checked by the general public and this is some extremely serious allegation. TSL could end up sued for libel big time.

TSL has absolutely no way of knowing if Restencourt has a legal record in France (except if they are personally suing him for the same case - if there is one - in France, i.e. if they were the victims of his alledged misconduct in France - and even then, it's illegal for civil parties -and the defendant - to publically discuss the details of a lawsuit until the sentence has been ruled). If Restencourt had a record in the US, I assume he'd have been expelled as the holder of a green card and in jail as a US citizen. So I hope DL holds a very solid and concrete proof of what he put forward. Difamation is hard to prove but here all what Restencourt would need is a copy of a clean French record. If minor stuff like parking tickets are expurged from court records after a few years, sexual offenses are not.

Edited to add (last part of my answer in the French thread) : I'm not saying all this is true or untrue, just that nobody in the general public can access someone else's legal records in France. So that's not how Dave Lease's allegations can be backed up.

They said it's searchable and to look it up.
It's not searchable nowhere if you're not a lawyer who's involved in the defense or prosecution. You can't look it up. At all. They obviously don't know. Which doesn't plead in favor of them having anything serious to back up their allegations.
 
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Gr8sk891

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Care to spill?
I cannot comment on what they say about issues in France I have no knowledge of that. But as far as soliciting students,
Do these allegations have anything to do with Ting Cui leaving him? Based on his instagram, there seemed to be some drama surrounding her departure.
Ting Cui left Vincent because when he convinced her to leave Tammy with him, I’m sure he told her that she would be his complete priority and then when Gracie came along that was no longer the case.
 

Frau Muller

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That is not a valid analogy, IMO. If someone earned a spot to compete in Placido Domingo's "Operalia," then there is no obligation to be in any shape for the competition, and a singer who was coming back from voice issues, woke up that morning being indisposed, etc. would have every right to compete. Of course, they would receive the same criticism that Gracie Gold is receiving.

And that's not even correct for Placido Domingo going onstage to sing in front of customers who are paying for a performance, not a competition. If he were indisposed, but decided to sing, someone from Management/Stage Management would appear before the curtain and announce that Placido Domingo -- or Jonas Kaufmann or Roberto Alagna, as actually happened so far since the Met opened its season this year -- has a cold/is indisposed/etc. but has graciously agreed to sing, and ask for [the audience's] understanding and indulgence. Twice this week I don't think there was a pre-show announcement for Mariusz Kwiecien, who sang only Act I of "The Pearl Fishers" and then was replaced by Alexander Birch Elliott, who sounded great over the airwaves, and is a Barihunk to boot.

And even at her best, internationally, Gold was closer to Kwiecien than Domingo, and more like the Ulrika than the Amelia, especially in that field, although being Kwiecien is nothing to sneeze at.

No. Today’s figure skaters are PROFESSIONALS. They are PAID. Gracie got some sort of “moohlah” for showing. You get paid, you perform at a minimal professional level.
 

MsZem

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No. Today’s figure skaters are PROFESSIONALS. They are PAID. Gracie got some sort of “moohlah” for showing. You get paid, you perform at a minimal professional level.
Prize money at GP events is only awarded to the top 5, and skaters who take part in the gala also receive a small sum.

The organizers did cover Gracie Gold's travel expenses, as they did for all the competitors.

There is nothing in the GP announcement that requires a specified level of performance at any given event.
 

Tavi

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I cannot comment on what they say about issues in France I have no knowledge of that. But as far as soliciting students,

Ting Cui left Vincent because when he convinced her to leave Tammy with him, I’m sure he told her that she would be his complete priority and then when Gracie came along that was no longer the case.

Are you stating a fact or are you stating your own speculation (“I’m sure”) as a fact?

@cholla, I haven’t listened to TSL yet, but in the US (it varies by state) to prove defamation I think you need to show that someone intentionally (or at least recklessly) made a statement they knew to be false.
 

just tuned in

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Are you stating a fact or are you stating your own speculation (“I’m sure”) as a fact?

@cholla, I haven’t listened to TSL yet, but in the US (it varies by state) to prove defamation I think you need to show that someone intentionally (or at least recklessly) made a statement they knew to be false.
The majority of TSL's discussions about Gracie were not related to allegations against Restencourt. I do think DL enjoyed hinting at allegations, but it was very secondary to his concerns about Gracie's emotional state. He spoke knowledgeably about the mental healthcare profession, believes that Rostelcom was a mistake, and expressed concern for Gracie in the most respectful way.
 

screech

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Some people are focusing on her being unprepared. My two cents (for whatever its worth) is that Gracie knew she didn't have the technical difficulty (I don't think anyone thought she'd be doing triple/triples). BUT that she thought she was prepared for the pressure of the situation. And unfortunately she wasn't (leading to a worse skate than expected). When she realized she wasn't prepared for that pressure, she didn't want to risk exacerbating things so withdrew.

She can land triples. We saw that in practice videos. But there's a difference between being able to do the elements, and being able to do them when thousands of people are focusing on you and analyzing your every move. She likely thought she was ready for that. Even with the greatest team in the world, it's hard to know how a person will do in a certain situation until they're actually in that situation. I think she gave it the best shot she could, which unfortunately was not up to our, or her expectations.

Though it's disappointing, I still give her huge credit for actually putting herself out there, and hope she can use the experience moving forward.
 

cholla

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@cholla, I haven’t listened to TSL yet, but in the US (it varies by state) to prove defamation I think you need to show that someone intentionally (or at least recklessly) made a statement they knew to be false.
Yes I know, although it varies from state to state. But if I'm not mistaken (I can be, I'm no specialist) suing for difamation is legally admissible if something said is unpriviledged by law, heard by a public 3rd party, blatantly false and... I don't remember but there is one or several other criteria. That being said I agree TSL just brushed over the subject. But brushing over such allegations can be damaging too.
 

giselle23

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Yes I know, although it varies from state to state. But if I'm not mistaken (I can be, I'm no specialist) suing for difamation is legally admissible if something said is unpriviledged by law, heard by a public 3rd party, blatantly false and... I don't remember but there is one or several other criteria. That being said I agree TSL just brushed over the subject. But brushing over such allegations can be damaging too.

There is federal (Supreme Court) law on the subject. It is much harder to prove defamation if the allegedly defamed person is considered a public figure. Then knowledge of falsity or reckless disregard for the truth has to be proven. Restencourt is likely a public figure for this event as Gracie Gold's coach--someone that is in the public eye, even if in a limited way, and thus typically subject to comment and criticism. Dave is probably repeating a rumor he heard from someone he considers reliable. Was he reckless in repeating it? That would be the issue.
 

soogar

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i was curious about the Restencourt gossip as well. Dave is very tuned into skating gossip and if you hang around rinks often, you will definitely pick up on gossip on coaches and competitors. He basically said that Restencourt has a “legal record” in France which was confirmed by sources and speculation on why Restencourt was not coaching in France. He also said that Restencourt was moving around from rink to rink. I don’t think it’s defamation to speculate on the reasons why a young coach would move from place to place.

It’s not Dave’s place to report someone based on gossip; it’s up to the people affected to report him, however as we’ve seen in the past with other sports, people are reluctant to report a coaches who are highly skilled. They rationalize the behavior with the perceived results.
 

AxelAnnie

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As @Tavi responded to Tinami Amori above, those are your expectations and not the ISU's, and they/the hosts have no obligation to deliver that to you, although they know full well that their behavior may keep you from buying a ticket.
Au contraire! Why would the ISU be monitoring skaters if they had no responsibility to put skaters in competitions where they are competitive.
 
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