Gracie Gold set to return

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Willin

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@Debbie S Can you contact Safe Sport and USFS based on rumors you've heard? Or do you need some sort of proof or to be tied directly to the situation? I can't remember.

i was curious about the Restencourt gossip as well. Dave is very tuned into skating gossip and if you hang around rinks often, you will definitely pick up on gossip on coaches and competitors. He basically said that Restencourt has a “legal record” in France which was confirmed by sources and speculation on why Restencourt was not coaching in France. He also said that Restencourt was moving around from rink to rink. I don’t think it’s defamation to speculate on the reasons why a young coach would move from place to place.

It’s not Dave’s place to report someone based on gossip; it’s up to the people affected to report him, however as we’ve seen in the past with other sports, people are reluctant to report a coaches who are highly skilled. They rationalize the behavior with the perceived results.
Yeah, he said the sources were "some French fans." That could mean anything from skaters/French skating officials who heard of the legal issues when they were going on but have no proof to just random fans trying to stir stuff up and assuring them there's proof. Especially with @cholla 's post about getting French legal documents I doubt he's ever seen proof and is taking rumors he's heard in the US as proof that these French sources are correct.


That being said, I agree that I wish Gracie had a different coaching situation. I think someone like Meagan Duhamel or Kori Ade would be helpful: Meagan because she is good at healthy eating and confidence and Kori because she's studied healthy holistic training methods for skaters. But I think that Gracie needs to make that choice for herself. I can't speak for her or her needs at all.
I also agree that the problem with this competition was mainly that it was too early: she'll be closer to ready in 8-12 months. She's only been on the comeback trail for five months, which is an insanely short period of time for a skating comeback.
 

kwanfan1818

RIP D-10
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33,532
Au contraire! Why would the ISU be monitoring skaters if they had no responsibility to put skaters in competitions where they are competitive.
The ISU doesn't monitor skaters, aside from following whether and when they compete or perform without ISU permission. ETA: Or to review official medical documentation when skaters withdraw from ISU events and are required to provide it.
 
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Foolhardy Ham Lint

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Out of curiosity, has Gracie mentioned what her short and long term goals are other than to skate again?
 
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MarieM

Grumpy Cynical Ice Dance Lover
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i was curious about the Restencourt gossip as well. Dave is very tuned into skating gossip and if you hang around rinks often, you will definitely pick up on gossip on coaches and competitors. He basically said that Restencourt has a “legal record” in France which was confirmed by sources and speculation on why Restencourt was not coaching in France. He also said that Restencourt was moving around from rink to rink. I don’t think it’s defamation to speculate on the reasons why a young coach would move from place to place.

It’s not Dave’s place to report someone based on gossip; it’s up to the people affected to report him, however as we’ve seen in the past with other sports, people are reluctant to report a coaches who are highly skilled. They rationalize the behavior with the perceived results.
Like many, he's not coaching in France because he's not on Didier's pet list. Ask Glesser, ask Massot's coach.
Vincent was viewed as a huge failure over here, and never was welcome in the first place. And you ask WHY he went abroad ? Like many young and talented coach, he goes where he's wanted. Ask others (Millot, Abitbol, Bonaly, all coaching abroad).

If he has a legal record, the only way to know, as cholla already said, is to be a lawyer for someone who is prosecuting him. And said person would never jeopardize anything by telling it all to someone like Dave Lease.
So next time, he really has to check his source.
Abusing woman and girl isn't something we should take lightly. But not checking the basic minimum here would be considered a crime in France.
 

Debbie S

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@Debbie S Can you contact Safe Sport and USFS based on rumors you've heard? Or do you need some sort of proof or to be tied directly to the situation? I can't remember.
You can probably contact Safe Sport with anything. For them to actually pursue something, they need some sort of evidence. My point was that Dave was merely sharing gossip. He presented it like he saw firsthand info/had access to records, etc to try to get people to believe him and spend multiple pages of a fan board discussing it. Skating is a small world, so if something truly bad had happened, USFS (and other coaches) would know. Like most sub-cultures, skating is gossip-heavy, so there can be crazy rumors flying around about anyone at any given time. I have no knowledge of Vincent or anything that Dave is talking about. It could be true, but as others who are knowledgeable about French legal records have pointed out, his assertions about him being in the know are likely false.
 

Tavi

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Yes I know, although it varies from state to state. But if I'm not mistaken (I can be, I'm no specialist) suing for difamation is legally admissible if something said is unpriviledged by law, heard by a public 3rd party, blatantly false and... I don't remember but there is one or several other criteria. That being said I agree TSL just brushed over the subject. But brushing over such allegations can be damaging too.

Hi yes, there are several elements that you need to prove for defamation. But after listening quickly to what TSL, it maybe not be the nicest gossip, but it would be hard to prove defamation.
 

rhapsody

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What did Dave say exactly?

Paraphrasing his words he said something along the lines of Vincent getting into trouble while coaching young women. Insinuations of inappropriate interactions.

I know people don't like DL but I don't think he would throw accusations as serious as this without reasonable support. And as someone who primarily follows gymnastics, I have to say that the recent happenings at USAG with so many abusive coaches hopping around from gym to gym is never a good sign. No one enjoys upending their life and moving across the country every couple of months--it's done because they usually have to.
 

Coco

Rotating while Russian!
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really, the judgment of anyone under 25 is fairly open to question...

This past makes me feel old, but it's true!
 

cholla

High ground loner
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Ask others (Millot, Abitbol, Bonaly, all coaching abroad)
Maximin Coïa, Line Haddad, Jean-François Ballester, Romain Haguenauer, Nicolas Osseland, Vanessa Gusmeroli...

To go back to the original subject (and I apologize for the digression), seeing Gracie back on competitive ice is enough to make me happy. I hope CoR won't stick in her mind as a bad experience. She tried. Kudos for that.
 

AxelAnnie

Like a small boat on the ocean...
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The ISU doesn't monitor skaters, aside from following whether and when they compete or perform without ISU permission. ETA: Or to review official medical documentation when skaters withdraw from ISU events and are required to provide it.
Oh My Bad - USFSA monitors them.
 

overedge

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Not quite. If I am buying a ticket for an event, I fully expect the people advertised to be there will be there. I also expect a certain level of proficiency by the participants. That is what I paid for, and that is what I deserve to see.

What do you mean by "advertised"? For a lot of competitions, who is going to be there depends on the results of previous competitions that haven't even happened when you buy the tickets.

And as for "proficiency", *every* competition has test levels and requirements that determine who is eligible to enter. Unless you're going to a low-level competition where the entry requirement is "no test", there are proficiency requirements that ensure the competitors are more or less comparable in their skills. The fact that Gracie wasn't "proficient" enough for your tastes doesn't mean she wasn't qualified to be in that competition.
 

Tinami Amori

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Yeah, and that's one reason why people develop eating disorders in the first place. :(
I disagree with this logic. Nobody makes these girls have an eating disorder, it is their choice, when they realize or falsely imagine that they don't have the right body for a particular sport or activity. Different people handle disappointments and realization of facts differently. Smart people see that they may not have the features/abilities/talents needed to succeed at the level they want to succeed. They make choices, to move on to something else, or to accept lesser results and just do it "for fun". And some do drastic things, but it is their choice, they don't have to.

Some people, when divorce, move on and start dating, some sulk and regain themselves, and some jump off the bridge or start doing drugs and drinking... So what do you propose? outlaw divorces because "some may do crazy things as a result of it"?

Certain sports require certain features. If a man is born very short but wants to be an elite basketball player, he needs to accept it and not put him self on a rack. The rack won't stretch him... but it does not mean we need to lower the basket to suite everyone.

If you don't have what it takes, live with it, and find other activity for which you have the right "features". One is not entitled to be an elite skater.

And yes, in ladies skating slimmer lighter figures look better and jump easier and their spins look more graceful. That's life... life is tough and then you die.. :lol:. Enough of this cry me a river stories..
 

triple_toe

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I disagree with this logic. Nobody makes these girls have an eating disorder, it is their choice, when they realize or falsely imagine that they don't have the right body for a particular sport or activity. Different people handle disappointments and realization of facts differently. Smart people see that they may not have the features/abilities/talents needed to succeed at the level they want to succeed. They make choices, to move on to something else, or to accept lesser results and just do it "for fun". And some do drastic things, but it is their choice, they don't have to.

Some people, when divorce, move on and start dating, some sulk and regain themselves, and some jump off the bridge or start doing drugs and drinking... So what do you propose? outlaw divorces because "some may do crazy things as a result of it"?

Certain sports require certain features. If a man is born very short but wants to be an elite basketball player, he needs to accept it and not put him self on a rack. The rack won't stretch him... but it does not mean we need to lower the basket to suite everyone.

If you don't have what it takes, live with it, and find other activity for which you have the right "features". One is not entitled to be an elite skater.

And yes, in ladies skating slimmer lighter figures look better and jump easier and their spins look more graceful. That's life... life is tough and then you die.. :lol:. Enough of this cry me a river stories..

Christ what a gross view. How do you square this with the fact that EDs are ten times more likely in aesthetic sports than they are in the regular population?

No one chooses to have a mental illness. Jesus. Have some f*cking sympathy for these young girls.
 

Tinami Amori

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Christ what a gross view. How do you square this with the fact that EDs are ten times more likely in aesthetic sports than they are in the regular population?
If "aesthetics" are part of requirement in a sport, then the one who is involved SHOULD CONSIDER THEM and assess one's body to see if it fits.

No difference if a very tall heavy built man wants to be a horse jokey, he is shite out of luck, because all race jockeys are very short and light. What would you expect a tall heavy man to do if he wants to be a jockey? Yell "equality for all" and insist that the horse race accepts clydesdales? And even if they allow clydesdales in a race, how quickly do you think they'll cross the finish line? and then how do we get equality? put clydesdales on roller skates or give them a shorter track?

No one chooses to have a mental illness. Jesus. Have some f*cking sympathy for these young girls.
I thought we're talking about athletic abilities and physical specifics for sports...:shuffle:
 

vesperholly

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If "aesthetics" are part of requirement in a sport, then the one who is involved SHOULD CONSIDER THEM and assess one's body to see if it fits.
Ahh, but here is the problem. Who determines what the "aesthetic standard" is? What exactly is that standard? Is it a Sasha Cohen body or a Sarah Hughes body? One judge may have an opinion, but another judge has a completely different opinion. And who are they to exclude someone from doing what they love?

Wakaba Higuchi is never going to look like Emmi Peltonen on the ice, and vice versa. One is not better than the other, they are merely different. But try explaining that to a pre-teen/teen girl who is struggling with their body image, with who to be and how to handle it.
 

Tinami Amori

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You literally said girls choose to have an eating disorder.
yes...... unless someone cuts off their food supply, makes them vomit, holds a gun to their heads, or takes their puppies hostage, yes.... it is THEIR CHOICE. The NORMAL response to recognizing that one does not or thinks that he does not have what it takes, is to say to yourself any of the following: i don't have what it takes, will try something else. i am going to lower my expectations and do it for fun. i am going to continue to see if i can adjust something else by healthy means to compensate what i maybe lacking. i don't give a shite what others predict for me and keep on trying as i am.

Making a choice to mutilate oneself is NOT NORMAL and not society's fault. People have brains, they should use them..Like my grand father said "if 10 people decide to jump of a 10-story roof, will you also be an idiot to join them?".

Take "Cinderella" story, the original mythological one, not the "Disney happy one".
- There is only 1 glass slipper. It is a certain size, VERY SMALL.
- Every maiden in the country wants to become Princess, but only one can become one IF HER FOOT FITS THE SLIPPER.
- Many maidens try on the slipper, it does not fit, and they take it off, and live on.
- But the Evil Sisters want it so bad, that they CUT OFF THEIR TOES to fit it, and still don't fit it.
Are you sorry for them for their idiotic solution? now they don't have toes... Bad Prince?

What do you propose for a prince to do? to make it equal for all, to satisfy each maidens dream? Surely not make 100 slippers of different size and have a harem?... or do you think he should, make every girl's dream come true?.. :lol:
 

el henry

#WeAllWeGot #WeAllWeNeed
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I posted in the TSL thread before coming here.

If there are credible allegations, Pennsylvania (where the Aston rink where Vincent trains Gracie is located) has a very strict child protective services law. I can supply the number offline. "Mandatory reporters" (other coaches, persons who work at a rink, etc) are *required* to report such instances.

SafeSport should be contacted for allegations of misconduct between one who is no longer a minor under the law, and a person in a position of authority.

And if there are credible allegations, talking without doing is :angryfire to me.
 

triple_toe

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1,384
If half of all women in aesthetic sports have disordered eating, I'm going to have to say that perhaps the environment is partly to blame. Those numbers are way out of line with the regular population. There is something that has been normalized about that response.

What part of "mental illness" don't you understand? Do you think depression is just "choosing to be sad" as well?? Bi-polar is just "choosing to have mood swings"? Schizophrenia is just "choosing to have hallucinations"?? PTSD is just "choosing to not get over trauma"?? You're coming off as extremely under-educated about the nature of human psychology.
 

hanca

Values her privacy
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If he has a legal record, the only way to know, as cholla already said, is to be a lawyer for someone who is prosecuting him. And said person would never jeopardize anything by telling it all to someone like Dave Lease.

So next time, he really has to check his source.
Abusing woman and girl isn't something we should take lightly. But not checking the basic minimum here would be considered a crime in France.
Here is where you are wrong. I am assessing a couple who lived in France for a few years. I arranged our police check from this country and told them to arrange their French police checks. If they want the position, they will have to show me a copy of the police check. I am not a lawyer, I am not prosecuting them and yet I will have a copy of their police record. Any employer can request applicants to have police check, including French police check if the applicant lived in France, and if the applicants want the job, they will happily get their own checks. So from this, any rink manager or a person employing a skating coach can have knowledge of the coach’s criminal record, if it is the policy at their rink.
 

Tinami Amori

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If half of all women in aesthetic sports have disordered eating, I'm going to have to say that perhaps the environment is partly to blame. Those numbers are way out of line with the regular population. There is something that has been normalized about that response.

What part of "mental illness" don't you understand? Do you think depression is just "choosing to be sad" as well?? Bi-polar is just "choosing to have mood swings"? Schizophrenia is just "choosing to have hallucinations"?? PTSD is just "choosing to not get over trauma"?? You're coming off as extremely under-educated about the nature of human psychology.

I don't know if you're replying to me, but i don't recall addressing mental illness or the rest of the conditions you list.
Eating disorder is usually a choice, the other conditions you are listing are much less in control or often out of control of a person.

But, since you mentioned it.. All these conditions that are listed (other than ED) also happen or triggered in some people after a divorce.

Do you suggest we outlaw divorce, because some "abandoned man or woman now feel worthless and develops all these problems"?
 

VGThuy

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34,442
Instead of going back and forth about myths about eating disorders or taking someone to task for basically calling anyone who suffers from disordered eating as "not smart", I'll just provide a few links:

https://www.aedweb.org/learn/publications/nine-truths

https://www.verywellmind.com/eating-disorder-myths-and-truths-1138395

Eating Disorder Truth 4
Myth # 4: Eating disorders are a choice.
Truth #4: Eating disorders are not choices, but serious biologically influenced illnesses.
Eating disorders are often dismissed as illnesses of choice and vanity, or the consequence of a deliberate adoption of an extreme diet. However, these disorders have far more complex origins. They are not merely a rigid diet that someone can easily choose to abandon. Low weight and restrictive eating patterns biologically alter an individual’s psychological functioning and become firmly rooted.

https://health.usnews.com/health-ca...8-01-04/the-truth-about-teen-eating-disorders

https://eatingdisorder.org/eating-disorder-information/facts-myths/

Myth: Only people of high socioeconomic status get eating disorders

Fact: People in all socioeconomic levels have eating disorders. The disorders have been identified across all socioeconomic groups, age groups, both sexes, and in many countries in Europe, Asia, Africa, and North and South America. (source: NEDA)

Myth: Eating Disorders are a lifestyle choice; someone can choose to stop having an eating disorder.

Fact: Eating disorders are serious illnesses with mental and physical consequences that often involve a great deal of suffering. Someone can make the choice to pursue recovery, but the act of recovery itself is a lot of hard work and involves more than simply deciding to not act on symptoms. In most cases, the eating disorder has become a person’s primary way of coping with intense emotions and difficult life events. In order to heal from the eating disorder, a person needs appropriate treatment and support regarding medical monitoring, nutritional rehabilitation as well as learning and practicing healthier ways to manage stress.

Psychology behind eating disorders:

https://www.apa.org/monitor/2016/04/eating-disorders.aspx

Public misunderstanding of mental health disorders is nothing new. But for eating disorders in particular, misinformation abounds.

Sounds about right.
 

Hucklepie

Member
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I disagree with this logic. Nobody makes these girls have an eating disorder, it is their choice, when they realize or falsely imagine that they don't have the right body for a particular sport or activity. Different people handle disappointments and realization of facts differently. Smart people see that they may not have the features/abilities/talents needed to succeed at the level they want to succeed. They make choices, to move on to something else, or to accept lesser results and just do it "for fun". And some do drastic things, but it is their choice, they don't have to.

Some people, when divorce, move on and start dating, some sulk and regain themselves, and some jump off the bridge or start doing drugs and drinking... So what do you propose? outlaw divorces because "some may do crazy things as a result of it"?

Certain sports require certain features. If a man is born very short but wants to be an elite basketball player, he needs to accept it and not put him self on a rack. The rack won't stretch him... but it does not mean we need to lower the basket to suite everyone.

If you don't have what it takes, live with it, and find other activity for which you have the right "features". One is not entitled to be an elite skater.

And yes, in ladies skating slimmer lighter figures look better and jump easier and their spins look more graceful. That's life... life is tough and then you die.. :lol:. Enough of this cry me a river stories..
If I "chose" to have an eating disorder in college, I sure wish it had been as simple as "choosing" to stop to spare me the therapy bills, hospital bills, and PTSD lasting for almost two decades now.

Mental illness is not a CHOICE.
 

dramagrrl

Well-Known Member
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1,913
I don't know if you're replying to me, but i don't recall addressing mental illness or the rest of the conditions you list.
Eating disorder is usually a choice, the other conditions you are listing are much less in control or often out of control of a person.
Eating disorders are classified as mental illnesses. There is no logical "choice" involved. The factors that would cause a young woman or man to starve themselves, throw up their food, or practice other forms of disordered eating are psychological and cumulative. To say anyone would "choose" to destroy their health and well-being is ludicrous.
 
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