GOE -5 to +5 How will skating change?

starrynight

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I was wondering when we will first see the new GOE judging be used?

What impact do you think the GOE changes will have on skating and scores? Will some skaters rise up in the ranks and others fall?
 
I'm wondering if it will take some time to achieve some consistency in GOE judging.

Perhaps there will be some big personal bests in some competitions if the judges get a bit enthusiastic with the +4s and +5s.
 
I think in theory it’s a wonderful idea, but the cynical side of me thinks this was a way for the judges to have more control over the results with skaters attempting base values that were almost taking their control away, especially in men. I see GOE allowing judges to take control back from the technical panel in ice dance in a big way and the next four years will give much more debate and bitter warring fandoms.
 
Do we know what the point values of these GOEs will be?

Will +1, +2, and +3 remain at the same values they have currently and +4 and +5 will be ways for judges to add even more points the elements they want to reward?

Or will +1, +3, and +5 be equivalent to the current three grades, with +2 and +4 having values in between the current ones?

Same for negative GOEs. Will -5 be the equivalent of the current -3? Or will -3 remain the same value in the SoV as it is now, maybe the largest reduction for any one error is only -3, but it will be allowed to keep accruing more reductions for multiple errors down to -5 rather than stopping at -3?

Until we see the new Scale of Values and the new guidelines for positive and negative GOEs, we can only speculate in the dark. This conversation will be much more productive in a few months when the actual proposals are published.
 
I'm predicting there might be a rough teething period where judges all try to learn how to apply the new GOE.

I'm sure plenty of skaters will be wanting to do the senior Bs before the GP circuit.

Here is an explanation of the new GOE from an Ice Network article:

The ISU also has already signed off on another scoring change for 2018-19, increasing the number of Grade of Execution (GOE) scores from seven (+3 through -3, including 0) to 11 (+5 through -5, also including 0). The interval between the scores would be set at 10 percent of the base value, as opposed to the current system, which has no standardized relationship to the base value.

For instance, a +2 on a triple lutz now adds 1.4 to a base value of 6.0, a 23 percent bonus, while a +2 on a quad lutz adds 2.0 to a base value of 13.6, a 14 percent bonus.

http://web.icenetwork.com/news/2017/09/11/253667206
 
It should be 10% of BV for positives, 20% for negatives. Mistakes and poor technique are not punished enough while positives reward average or slightly better than average way too much.
 
Oh, I like the numbers turning into a percentage! I think that's fairer than it always being +3 (except for a few elements for which -3 would be a negative number so it's already a fraction)
 
So does this mean it will be 10% bonus for +1, 20% bonus for +2 etc etc with a 50% bonus for +5?

I agree that it's good there will be a uniform percentage bonus across all elements. Makes the scoring a bit easier to understand.
 
I'm really unsure what I think about this scale. There are too many points on it that it becomes nearly impossible to differentiate what it takes to get each of these. How does one define the difference of a +3 vs. +4? What is the line between a -4 and -5? In a scale like this, you need to be able to clearly define each point; and with 11 points, I don't see that happening.

so nothing is going to change, and the scoring is basically going to be just as subjective as it is now.
 
I think the top skaters will get all +4s and +5s for everything, unless they have obvious errors. And lower-ranked skaters may get +2 for an element done the same or better than the top skaters. So basically the same as now, just with higher numbers.
 
Would love to see the technical panel award the GOEs with some of the bullet points that are more big picture in nature (tied to musical structure) being moved over to the appropriate component mark.
 
I think the top skaters will get all +4s and +5s for everything, unless they have obvious errors. And lower-ranked skaters may get +2 for an element done the same or better than the top skaters. So basically the same as now, just with higher numbers.

This is my thought, too. Because that's what frequently happens now. So unless there is real change in terms of how the judges are trained and held accountable, the most likely thing is the current situation continues, just with higher numbers, as you say.
 
I think the top skaters will get all +4s and +5s for everything, unless they have obvious errors. And lower-ranked skaters may get +2 for an element done the same or better than the top skaters. So basically the same as now, just with higher numbers.

I think so too. Nothing will really change, except for the scores. The same skaters will win/lose.
 
The whole thing is depressing to even contemplate, because they are not addressing what needs to be addressed, period. Reducing time in the fps doesn't make sense combined with reducing point values for triples, when it's only the quad values that need slight adjustment, along with better decisionmaking surrounding falls, and lots of attention to how PCS are scored. They certainly DO NOT need to mess with reducing values on elements in pairs. :(

ISU PTB should be trying to listen to coaches and to other knowledgeable people in the skating community to gain better consensus. They also should do some testing and further analysis and reflection before botching things up more than the situation already is right now. Obviously, PCS scores and how they are administered is a huge problem in all of this, which is again taking a back seat. To me, it just seems as if TPTB are more interested in trying to ensure that tech panels and judges maintain power and control. The fact that the ISU botched up by giving too high a point-value spread to quads is now seen as problematic to judges' hegemony, due to Nathan Chen's revolutionary advances in being able to land multiple quads. Also, previous to Nathan's feats, Boyang having been the first to land four quads in a fp with less than stellar skating skills and presentation and being vaulted to the podium as a newbie changed things (and apparently inspired Nathan's feats). It was obvious to me from the beginning that the OTT point value spread for quads was problematic, and I mentioned it often in the face of much dissing by quad fanatics. But oh well, although I can recognize the problems, it's all becoming so ridiculous that at this point who knows what's going to be the outcome next season for the freakin' judging miasma the sport is mired in?!

Most fans, it seems to me become fairly resigned to whatever happens, or make excuses to justify whatever happens if it benefits their faves. I'm guilty of becoming resigned about certain situations because I don't have the power to change anything. Mainly, I try to examine the sport with clear eyes and hope for fair dialogue around these issues, but that's often difficult to find, especially at times like this when a lot has been happening, tensions are high, and fans and skaters alike are so emotional. In general, I try to detach from the scoring and take whatever pleasure I can from skaters' performances, but that too is problematic when political judging and PCS manipulation affects fair placement. :drama: Again, I do not see much hope for the proposed scoring system changes and the state of the sport. There don't seem to be any responsible grown-ups in charge who possess ideas, vision, and grounded common sense.
 
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Technical panels should learn what Flutz is before giving out ridiculous GOE. Such shame Alina lost the FS to Med's FS with deep inside edge. I'll be flipping out if Med gets 5 GOE on her Flutz and Toe axels
 
Technical panels should learn what Flutz is before giving out ridiculous GOE. Such shame Alina lost the FS to Med's FS with deep inside edge. I'll be flipping out if Med gets 5 GOE on her Flutz and Toe axels
Technical panel doesn't give out GOE's, and what does it matter that Zagitova lost the free skate on the PCS tie breaker - she won the Gold Medal. :rolleyes:
 
Technical panel doesn't give out GOE's, and what does it matter that Zagitova lost the free skate on the PCS tie breaker - she won the Gold Medal. :rolleyes:

someone's salty about her loss. Zagitova should've won the free program as well. That's a fact.
 
It's about correct judging.
Zagitova won on the technical side, Medvedeva on the PCS side, and when they added it all up it was a tie and Medvedeva won because the PCS is the tiebreaker. Yes, I think you could make an argument that Medvedeva's technical score was too high based on the GOE on her jumps, and the technical panel ignoring the flutz. On the other hand, there is an equally good argument that Zagitova was overscored in PCS because of the lack of finish in her movement - like seriously someone tell her to slowdown and hold an edge for a just 3 count at some point in the program. In the end it washes each other out, and the only person it would help is Kaetlyn Osmond.
 
I wouldn't be surprised if there is a bit of a reset period and +5s aren't awarded for a year or two. There was a time when we didn't see high 9s or 10s for PCS in the protocols.

There aren't many hard and fast rules for GOE, more like a few suggestions. A lot is put on the judge's discretion. There isn't going to be any major changes to how GOE is awarded unless there are more guidelines or mandatory adjustments in the already unwieldy rule book.
 
I think the top skaters will get all +4s and +5s for everything, unless they have obvious errors. And lower-ranked skaters may get +2 for an element done the same or better than the top skaters. So basically the same as now, just with higher numbers.
It will make it even more difficult for lower level skaters to break through. More skaters will leave skating. Bad idea.
 
someone's salty about her loss. Zagitova should've won the free program as well. That's a fact.

:lol: That's only her avid fans' belief, amidst the whole WTF ZagMed-itis horse and pony show. :p

A lot of sound thinkers, active coaches and choreographers in the sport feel that Kaetlyn Osmond should have won OGM in ladies singles. The main drawback for Osmond in not winning gold is the Russian political clout juggernaut syndrome, and Osmond's relative inconsistencies due to nerves, thus her inability to slam dunk her Russian rivals head-to-head during the GP. Osmond has tended to be coddled by fans and judges generally, so if she had a more fierce competitive track record combined with her stellar skills, Eteri's gals may have been challenged in the minds of the judges. :COP: Realistically, Osmond is way better with speed, height, power and ice coverage on her jumps, and she's more mature and dynamic aesthetically. Osmond brung her A-game to the individual event at the Olympics and that was nice to see.

To be honest, Zag and Med are both talented skaters with great potential, but they have weaknesses that are overlooked, and neither should be receiving those ridiculously high PCS scores. Kostner, Miyahara, and Osmond are all superior aesthetically. Osmond is the best jumper overall. Re Zag vs Med, Zagitova is the better jumper and athlete, but both have technical weaknesses the judges apparently don't feel these two 'Russian juggernauts' need to work on. :rolleyes:
 
I wouldn't be surprised if there is a bit of a reset period and +5s aren't awarded for a year or two. There was a time when we didn't see high 9s or 10s for PCS in the protocols.

There aren't many hard and fast rules for GOE, more like a few suggestions. A lot is put on the judge's discretion. There isn't going to be any major changes to how GOE is awarded unless there are more guidelines or mandatory adjustments in the already unwieldy rule book.

I guess they have to leave time to build so that world records and highest possible scores can be set at the 2022 Olympics with straight +5 GOE for certain skaters.

This may also have the effect that levels/difficulty of elements are less important if you're a +5 GOE skater. For example in dance it would probably make no difference if you did level 3 step sequences or lifts if you got +5 GOE. Potentially it would be more rewarding to scale back difficultly so you could get better execution marks.

There's also rumours that after 2022 they might actually change the format to a technical program and an artistic program.
 
There's also rumours that after 2022 they might actually change the format to a technical program and an artistic program.

I didn't hear about an actual year placed on that proposal. To be honest, the ISU should be testing all of their proposals at mock competitions before precipitously implementing unproven changes. And it would behoove them to listen to more voices within the skating community to obtain more thoughtful consensus.
 
I thought they were going to test the GOE changes at last year's Tallinn Trophy but it didn't happen. Are we just going to be jumping in cold turkey at the beginning of the season?
 

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