From Russia with Love [#35]: Winter 2019

rfisher

Let the skating begin
Messages
67,765
With so many saying Zagitova should switch countries or skate for the US- please remember that both Mariah and Bradie beat Zagitova this season. Mariah won the LP and Bradie overall, so Zagitova wouldn’t be guaranteed wins in the US. She also got beat by Rika, so that rules out Japan also.
Her technique was failing her and she made a very wise choice. As for the drama with the adults in Russia, I feel for the skaters being out in the middle. I remember when Eteri publicly lashed out at Medvedeva for leaving her, and she did the same with other skaters before her. It’s a shame Eteri resorts to this.
Eteri hasn't lashed out at Zagitova. The feud is between coaches.
 

her grace

standing with Mariah
Messages
4,264
BTW Sotskova (who everyone has forgotten about) is another non-Eteri Russian lady who is struggling after 17 with consistency after being Russian top 3 just 2 years ago. (And yes with UR as well.) So...

Sotskova's decline tracks with her becoming a full-time college student. Not everyone can combine uni with skating.
 

Ka3sha

Well-Known Member
Messages
8,046
But at the same time we also have someone like Anastasia Gubanova, who has just turned 17, is clearly going through puberty, was called “lazy and fat” (by Buyanova) but who still has nice musicality and skating skills and is still able to rotate her jumps.

And she didn’t even got a single international assignment this autumn.
 

hanca

Values her privacy
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11,664
I call BS.
First of all, I don't have a country to be in the same position, so the notion of preference of one country over the other is ridiculous. Second of all, it's highly doubtful ISU doesn't care; looking at the rules changes every season, it seems like they are not crazy about the situation either, and to remind you: Lakernik is a Russian. And thirdly, it's very simple to dismiss the criticism as "haters and jealousy" and attack the person, rather than addressing the arguments. So here.
I don’t think it is USU who is coming with all the proposals for change of rules. All countries who are members of ISU bring their own agenda and then there is the conference where they vote on the rule changes, so it is not necessarily coming from ISU who doesn’t like that skaters don’t stay competitive for long enough.

you don’t have country? So are you saying you would be as unhappy with the situation if those were Israeli girls who would be coming through in those numbers with all those quads and triple axels... and you would be still unhappy that none of them stays longer than four or five years? Somehow I doubt it.
 

muffinplus

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,942
Sotskova's decline tracks with her becoming a full-time college student. Not everyone can combine uni with skating.

And how do you know that's the reason? She has certainly indicated that she is still committed to skating, but she completely fell off after 1 successful season.
 

hanca

Values her privacy
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11,664
They are if you watch the competition. In the past two cycles Russians always had 2-3 ladies who were head and shoulders above the rest. This season the results are similar, kind of, but if you look at the actual performances, with the possible exception of Valieva, none of the Russian juniors is that invincible. While the 3A and Zagitova, Medvedeva etc who dominated their junior seasons moved to the seniors to immediately take over the seniors as well, I really don't expect this to happen with any of the current Russian junior girls, again, with the possible exception of Valieva. The rest are going to be mid-pack at best.

And if the 3A fall apart like all the other Russians before them after a couple of seasons, the leadership might pass to the Japanese/American girls who are currently playing the second fiddle, but have actual strong basics that will make them last beyond 2 seasons.

P.S. I kind of bundle Kostornaya with the rest, but she in fact has very solid basics and (fingers crossed) will make it if she wants.
Well, I wouldn’t worry about juniors. There have always been some strong ones who didn’t make it to seniors (Tsurskaya had a very short senior career, Gubanova and Nugumanova are suddenly pretty average in seniors), but there are still some left who manage in seniors.
 

BittyBug

The missing ingredient
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23,666
But at the same time we also have someone like Anastasia Gubanova, who has just turned 17, is clearly going through puberty, was called “lazy and fat” (by Buyanova) but who still has nice musicality and skating skills and is still able to rotate her jumps.

And she didn’t even got a single international assignment this autumn.
Love her, and I'm glad that she seems to have come out ok on the other side of her growth spurt.
 

zebraswan

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,213
This is the Russian way of life it seems to me.

As opposed to???

Russian skating stars of the past generations are still doing very well for themselves...does it look to you like Slutskaya, Plush, Yags, Navka, V/T, etc. have been discarded and devalued? Please. They are TV stars, they have long show careers, they seem to be pretty wealthy by Russian standards. There are coaching opportunities for all that want them. Nobody has been "thrown away..." This narrative is so tedious. Most American skaters quit to go to university and get "real jobs" and fade away forever - not saying one is better than the other, but what exactly do you all think is owed to someone just because they are an athlete?
 

Andrey aka Pushkin

Playing ping pong with balls of chocolate jam
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20,187
So? Still don't see how that relates to Zagitova... whose situation is not the same
You asked me why I bring Lipnitskaya. This is why. She couldn't win the Olympics, couldn't continue her career because of the bad technique she had, and had to pay the health price. It's not just "ah, who cares as long as the skaters gets the gold medals". Not all get the medals, but all can't last if they want.

She had a very clean skate at Test Skates with no UR and has been reportedly quite solid in practices. OK then, I guess according to you then she won competitions with no technique. Whatever. So I guess she was just gifted her spot in GPF.
Her technique is suited for a prepubescent child who is getting the rotation exclusively thanks to the lower weight and lack of any body features. The former allowed her to jump higher based on the leg muscles only, and the latter to rotate quicker in the air. Once she grew a bit, she stopped rotating her jumps. She got the GPF thanks to the Olympic-champion-from-Russia PCS boost mostly, combined with luck and relative low level of ladies in general this season. And I can land a quintiple axel in the practice. Allegedly.

Why is this exclusively an Eteri problem when Pogorilaya and Radionova also retired after very short careers? (1 or more seasons longer than Eteri girls). This has nothing to do with proper technique, but the amount of competition in one country. I am done.
It's not, but she's pinnacle of it. There are always casualties. Pogorilaya and Tsurskaya had good basics, but had to retire due to injuries. Sotnikova had a wonderful technique, but decided she had enough. Sotskova is not bad either, but seemingly she's going out now. Radionova indeed had a lousy technique, albeit in a different way. Those things happen, it's normal. It's far from ideal, but there's always a certain percentage of talented skaters just not making it for whatever reason.

With Tutberidze it's 100%. NONE of her girls managed to survive the puberty, no matter how wonderful, talented and PCS friendly they were. It's not normal.

Of course, a skater in a less competitive federation has more opportunities to get to the big competitions, and it might be a factor. However, nowhere and never it was a reason for a friggin' 100% failure to last more than 3 seasons. Not for the American and Japanese ladies, not for the Soviet/Russian pairs/dance couples. Never. The situation with the Russian ladies is unprecedented.
 

Andrey aka Pushkin

Playing ping pong with balls of chocolate jam
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20,187
I don’t think it is USU who is coming with all the proposals for change of rules. All countries who are members of ISU bring their own agenda and then there is the conference where they vote on the rule changes, so it is not necessarily coming from ISU who doesn’t like that skaters don’t stay competitive for long enough.

you don’t have country? So are you saying you would be as unhappy with the situation if those were Israeli girls who would be coming through in those numbers with all those quads and triple axels... and you would be still unhappy that none of them stays longer than four or five years? Somehow I doubt it.
Proposals have to pass through the technical committee. It's not like you just come and suggest about penalizing the underrotations, and random officials vote for it. It doesn't work like this. Technical proposals originate from the professional team, head of which is Lakernik.

Even if we ignore the fact that no, I wouldn't have been a raging patriot anyway, you can't blame me for taking a side due to nationalistic preferences NOW, because Israel is not in the run. And if I criticize the Russian Federation or unhappy with Scherbakova's technique, it's not because I secretly root for a skater from my country to win the gold. You can't blame for insincerity and just wave off all the criticism because it originates from me personally.
 

PRlady

Well-Known Member
Messages
36,813
Ping pong with balls of chocolate jam may be my new favourite phrase. :rofl:

Playing ping pong with balls of chocolate jam would have been such a great rep level.

Proposals have to pass through the technical committee. It's not like you just come and suggest about penalizing the underrotations, and random officials vote for it. It doesn't work like this. Technical proposals originate from the professional team, head of which is Lakernik.

Even if we ignore the fact that no, I wouldn't have been a raging patriot anyway, you can't blame me for taking a side due to nationalistic preferences NOW, because Israel is not in the run. And if I criticize the Russian Federation or unhappy with Scherbakova's technique, it's not because I secretly root for a skater from my country to win the gold. You can't blame for insincerity and just wave off all the criticism because it originates from me personally.

Yeah. I’m an American who hasn’t ubered an American lady since Sasha retired, although I had a soft spot for Mirai. I adore Med and was so rooting for Tsurskaya to triumph over injury. I like all three of the 3As which is WHY I’m saddened by their future prospects in the midget factory.

So I’ll root for Sakamoto and her skating skills, Miyahara and her amazing musicality, Med’s storytelling and keep my fingers crossed for Ting Cui and Liu. I’m done with really investing in planned obsolescence.
 

Andrey aka Pushkin

Playing ping pong with balls of chocolate jam
Messages
20,187
Ping pong with balls of chocolate jam may be my new favourite phrase. :rofl:
I think I found my new status.

And I'm a native speaker, and I don't have the slightest clue where this phrase came from.

ETA: And I think I know what our meet-up in Montreal will look like....
 

Dobre

Well-Known Member
Messages
10,940
But at the same time we also have someone like Anastasia Gubanova, who has just turned 17, is clearly going through puberty, was called “lazy and fat” (by Buyanova) but who still has nice musicality and skating skills and is still able to rotate her jumps.

And she didn’t even got a single international assignment this autumn.

Let's give her two this coming season. :cheer2:

She wouldn't be the first teenager to miss out on a season & come roaring back.
 

muffinplus

Well-Known Member
Messages
3,942
You asked me why I bring Lipnitskaya. This is why. She couldn't win the Olympics, couldn't continue her career because of the bad technique she had, and had to pay the health price. It's not just "ah, who cares as long as the skaters gets the gold medals". Not all get the medals, but all can't last if they want.

But this is not Zagitova's situation... you are bringing Lipnitskaya in as an example is not relevant because Zagitova is not struggling with an eating disorder. If this repeats again, then you might have a point.


Her technique is suited for a prepubescent child who is getting the rotation exclusively thanks to the lower weight and lack of any body features. The former allowed her to jump higher based on the leg muscles only, and the latter to rotate quicker in the air. Once she grew a bit, she stopped rotating her jumps. She got the GPF thanks to the Olympic-champion-from-Russia PCS boost mostly, combined with luck and relative low level of ladies in general this season. And I can land a quintiple axel in the practice. Allegedly.

Oh great... the Eteri technique mantra again.

Actually at test skates it was remarked her jumps were higher and had better rotation than last year... but now that she has had some not so great competitions with UR's we have an excuse to go back to saying her technique is poor.

Sure because a mythical quintuple axel is the same as actual practices

So it just a matter of a broken clock working once in a while?


Just because someone has had UR's in competitions doesn't mean it's a fundamental technique problem as it is with Miyahara. But of course now that we probably won't have a chance to see you are going to say she is gone because her technique hasn't lasted :lol:

Zagitova did just win Worlds with her post-pubescent body in 2019. I know... now you are probably going to say she should have received a ton of carrots and she didn't because, you know, Olympic Champion bonus... :rolleyes:


It's not, but she's pinnacle of it. There are always casualties. Pogorilaya and Tsurskaya had good basics, but had to retire due to injuries. Sotnikova had a wonderful technique, but decided she had enough. Sotskova is not bad either, but seemingly she's going out now. Radionova indeed had a lousy technique, albeit in a different way. Those things happen, it's normal. It's far from ideal, but there's always a certain percentage of talented skaters just not making it for whatever reason.

With Tutberidze it's 100%. NONE of her girls managed to survive the puberty, no matter how wonderful, talented and PCS friendly they were. It's not normal.

Of course, a skater in a less competitive federation has more opportunities to get to the big competitions, and it might be a factor. However, nowhere and never it was a reason for a friggin' 100% failure to last more than 3 seasons. Not for the American and Japanese ladies, not for the Soviet/Russian pairs/dance couples. Never. The situation with the Russian ladies is unprecedented.

Sotnikova had a wonderful technique? In what universe?

How many generations of students (who actually stayed) has Tutberidze actually had a chance to work with past puberty?

Medvedeva left and is continuing skating with Orser...
Tsurskaya left and stopped skating.. and it's not due to injuries.She didn't continue skating past puberty with Eteri.

Once again, the fact is a large percentage of Russian skaters in general are not continuing past 17... but for some reason you to choose to be focusing on exclusively Tutberidze school.
 

Vash01

Fan of Yuzuru, Three A's, T&M, P&C
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51,235
And if the 3A fall apart like all the other Russians before them after a couple of seasons, the leadership might pass to the Japanese/American girls who are currently playing the second fiddle, but have actual strong basics that will make them last beyond 2 seasons.

Russia has many talented juniors to replace the 3A, in case they fall apart (I don't think they will).
 

Andrey aka Pushkin

Playing ping pong with balls of chocolate jam
Messages
20,187
But this is not Zagitova's situation... you are bringing Lipnitskaya in as an example is not relevant because Zagitova is not struggling with an eating disorder. If this repeats again, then you might have a point.
Lipnitskaya is relevant because she's an example of Eteri girl who couldn't continue skating even though she wanted, due to bad basic technique. Same as Zagitova. Both are examples of Tutberidze's students. In addition Lipnitskaya had an eating disorder as the result of trying to maintain her skating career with inadequate technique. She's not the only one who tried to postpone puberty, but she's the only one who's case is public. Zagitova doesn't try to maintain anything, she retired.

Oh great... the Eteri technique mantra again.

Actually at test skates it was remarked her jumps were higher and had better rotation than last year... but now that she has had some not so great competitions with UR's we have an excuse to go back to saying her technique is poor.
She was criticized for improper technique all her very short career. It worked while she was small, it stopped working the moment she got a bit bigger. It's not the Eteri technique mantra, it's a fact. Anyone who has a half idea about skating sees it, regardless of nationality, personal preferences or love of Zagitova. This has been said countless times not just by posters here, whose credentials really are unknown, but also by countless coaches, officials and commentators. Yes, it brings medals. Yes, bad technique can bring medals. Yes, Eteri's girls deserved most if not all the medals they have ever won. No, it doesn't make the technique any less horrible. No, still none of them survived the puberty.

Just because someone has had UR's in competitions doesn't mean it's a fundamental technique problem as it is with Miyahara. But of course now that we probably won't have a chance to see you are going to say she is gone because her technique hasn't lasted :lol:

Zagitova did just win Worlds with her post-pubescent body in 2019. I know... now you are probably going to say she should have received a ton of carrots and she didn't because, you know, Olympic Champion bonus... :rolleyes:
Miyahara also has a serious problem with technique. A different kind of problem, but still, her jumping technique is very bad. And like Zagitova she also manages to rotate only when she's at a particular weight (low) and only due to her very fast rotation in the air due to nearly boyish figure.

Zagitova probably won the Worlds fair, I don't recall what I thought about the underrotations then. No, she didn't have her post-pubescent body in 2019. She's considerably taller and bigger now (and more powerful, btw). And yes, Olympic Champion bonus. She didn't have a single good competition last season apart from the worlds, so I think it is a good showcase that her technique is unmaintainable in the long run. I don't want to speculate how exactly she managed to make it work for the worlds, but I have my guess, and I suppose we all do. This probably can't work anymore because she got even taller and heavier this year.

Sotnikova had a wonderful technique? In what universe?
In this. She had a take-off edge problem, but other than this her jumps were high, powerful, she had great basics, speed and off ice training. She also had a consistency problem and terrible programs.

Out of Tutberidze's girls of the last decade only Tsurskaya and Kostornaya have comparable basics, and both learned it before arriving to her group.

How many generations of students (who actually stayed) has Tutberidze actually had a chance to work with past puberty?

Once again, the fact is a large percentage of Russian skaters in general are not continuing past 17... but for some reason you to choose to be focusing on exclusively Tutberidze school.
Heh. That's rich.
So do you imply that the only reason why all those Shelepens, Lipnitskayas, Panenkovas and so on couldn't survive the puberty BECAUSE they didn't let Tutberidze fix their technique she herself gave them when they were little girls? I mean, I am trying to follow the thread of thought here.... So she knows how to teach two different techniques, one for the little girls, and one for the grown ups, and it's expected that once they reach 17, she just reteaches them the other kind? Is that how in your opinion skating works?

As for the rest, again, many girls in all groups and all countries don't continue past 17. But the fact is that Tutberidze is the only one who doesn't have a SINGLE girl out of literally dozens who managed to do so. Mishin had 2-3 girls, one is still skating. Buyanova had 4-5 girls, some 3 out of them survived the puberty. Eteri had some 20 girls in the last 8 years who reached the high level at the age of 13-15, and ZERO of them managed to have a career of more than 3 senior years. Do you see the problem?

ETA: To be clear, I think you're fighting the wrong fight. No one ever has said that Tutberidze's girls have good jumping technique. That is not the debate at all. Neither no one says her girls don't deserve the medals. The basic point of argument is whether it's a bad thing that prepubescent girls with bad jumping technique win everything or is the only thing that matters is the fact that they win.
 
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Bigbird

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,846
Let's give her two this coming season. :cheer2:

She wouldn't be the first teenager to miss out on a season & come roaring back.
Buyanova and others hated her because she called them on their savage demands which bordered on self imposed anorexia to achieve a certain ideal. So I am proud that she stuck to her ideals. I am hopeful she continues to enjoy what she does for as long as she wants to.
 

Bigbird

Well-Known Member
Messages
1,846
Some really glam photos of Stepanova

If only her skating were half as stellar as her looks. That's my problem in general with Russian ice dance, ATM, very shallow. I really like Katashinskaya and Vaskovich though if only they were trained by Platov or in the Gadbois group, they could have real potential.
 
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If only her skating were half as stellar as her looks. That's my problem in general with Russian ice dance, ATM, very shallow. I really like Katashinskaya and Vaskovich though if only they were trained by Platov or in the Gadbois group, they could have real potential.
All looks with zero skating skills don't make you a complete package. Show that all after you have achieved something.
I am in full agreement with you. Thanks for raising this.
 

wickedwitch

Well-Known Member
Messages
15,009
Many girls have jump issues immediately post-puberty. (And too many girls have eating disorders, at least to some extent.) While this is an issue with Eteri's girls, pretending this isn't a skating wide issue is minimizing the problem.

Eteri didn't create any new problems for ladies skating, unless you really hate Russian ladies winning everything.

I'm not saying Eteri has no problems -- I personally worry about the mental effect of the disposable nature of her group as well as the aforementioned issues -- but Alina retiring at 17 after winning the Olys and world title a year later, isn't an example of any of them.
 

muffinplus

Well-Known Member
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3,942
Lipnitskaya is relevant because she's an example of Eteri girl who couldn't continue skating even though she wanted, due to bad basic technique. Same as Zagitova. Both are examples of Tutberidze's students. In addition Lipnitskaya had an eating disorder as the result of trying to maintain her skating career with inadequate technique. She's not the only one who tried to postpone puberty, but she's the only one who's case is public. Zagitova doesn't try to maintain anything, she retired.

You are claiming that Zagitova cannot continue skating due to bad basic technique when she has skated a grand total of 3 competitions since winning Worlds before stopping and STILL had decent enough results :lol: (which yes, you say are meaningless)...

She was criticized for improper technique all her very short career. It worked while she was small, it stopped working the moment she got a bit bigger. It's not the Eteri technique mantra, it's a fact. Anyone who has a half idea about skating sees it, regardless of nationality, personal preferences or love of Zagitova. This has been said countless times not just by posters here, whose credentials really are unknown, but also by countless coaches, officials and commentators. Yes, it brings medals. Yes, bad technique can bring medals. Yes, Eteri's girls deserved most if not all the medals they have ever won. No, it doesn't make the technique any less horrible. No, still none of them survived the puberty.

Who are these countless coaches, officials and commentators? I've not heard a single commentator mention anything about this. But I have heard lots of this talk from people who are constantly criticizing that school.


Zagitova probably won the Worlds fair, I don't recall what I thought about the underrotations then. No, she didn't have her post-pubescent body in 2019. She's considerably taller and bigger now (and more powerful, btw). And yes, Olympic Champion bonus. She didn't have a single good competition last season apart from the worlds, so I think it is a good showcase that her technique is unmaintainable in the long run. I don't want to speculate how exactly she managed to make it work for the worlds, but I have my guess, and I suppose we all do. This probably can't work anymore because she got even taller and heavier this year.

Um what? her body hasn't changed that much since winning Worlds.

And yes she did have a good competition at Nebelhorn last year. Oh please do tell how she managed to make it work for Worlds, I really want to know. I'm sure it's going to be good.


In this. She had a take-off edge problem, but other than this her jumps were high, powerful, she had great basics, speed and off ice training. She also had a consistency problem and terrible programs.

???? Sotnikova had fairly mediocre skating skills and prerotation issues on jumps (which are heavily criticized for Eteri girls bw). I really wonder what you are talking about.


Heh. That's rich.So do you imply that the only reason why all those Shelepens, Lipnitskayas, Panenkovas and so on couldn't survive the puberty BECAUSE they didn't let Tutberidze fix their technique she herself gave them when they were little girls? I mean, I am trying to follow the thread of thought here.... So she knows how to teach two different techniques, one for the little girls, and one for the grown ups, and it's expected that once they reach 17, she just reteaches them the other kind? Is that how in your opinion skating works?

I am implying that I don't see how you can claim that Turberidze doesn't know how to train adult skaters, when she has had no opportunity to train one.


As for the rest, again, many girls in all groups and all countries don't continue past 17. But the fact is that Tutberidze is the only one who doesn't have a SINGLE girl out of literally dozens who managed to do so. Mishin had 2-3 girls, one is still skating. Buyanova had 4-5 girls, some 3 out of them survived the puberty. Eteri had some 20 girls in the last 8 years who reached the high level at the age of 13-15, and ZERO of them managed to have a career of more than 3 senior years. Do you see the problem?

Wrong again. Buyanova's girls pretty much ALL left her. I don't see you saying anything about that. Once again, you have not commented on the fact that girls after 17 generally struggle (especially in Russia), and it's not an Eteri thing.

Honestly don't bother responding... we are not getting anywhere and your posts come across as super arrogant
 
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Tinami Amori

Well-Known Member
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20,157
Season 21-22 it will be Valieva, season 22-23 Samodelkina and Muravieva, season 23-24 it will be Akatieva and Zhilina...
Since you mentioned it..
3rd from the right.

Sofia Muravieva just joint Eteri Tutberidze's group... and she is on her trial period, but "inside rink people" say she is doing well. She left CSKA/Davydov's group recently (it was a bit too tough for her there). Here are few of her past season's skates.

Another new girl on that foto, on the far right side, is Veronika An. She is lovely.

You can see both girls on the 2nd foto on this IG post.
The IG page is from Moscow Committee Director - Alexei Kondarantzev.
He came with a visit and were given a line up of novice and upcoming junior skaters.
After his visit he announced the following:
"Today I visited a true workshop where champions are forged! That very special rink where works, unquestionably, one of the best coach in the world in figure skating, Eteri Geogrievna Tutberidze. The secret of this Honored Coach of Russia no one has yet solved! And will never solve, i hope. We, at MosComSort, on our end, will put all our efforts and will create the most comfortable conditions for our athletes, so they can continue to reach the highest possible results".

The new rink for Eteri's group is in the Moscow's "expansion budget" and work is ready to go.

And the ТAT-Plush-ET drama in the next post.... :lol:
 

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