From Russia with Love [#35]: Winter 2019

[TAHbKA]

TAT: it's a shame an Olympic career sums up to 3 programmes
Team Tutberidze: Zagitova showed more in her 3 programmes than some do in 10. It's a shame that during her top years you had so much criticism towards her. It probanly came out of you live and care. We wish you loved and cared our next pupils slightly less
Journalists calling TAT for a comment' TAT's reaction: go to hell. All of you.

 

[Maofan7]

TAT: it's a shame an Olympic career sums up to 3 programmes
Team Tutberidze: Zagitova showed more in her 3 programmes than some do in 10. It's a shame that during her top years you had so much criticism towards her. It probanly came out of you live and care. We wish you loved and cared our next pupils slightly less
Journalists calling TAT for a comment' TAT's reaction: go to hell. All of you.

Wow! This one is going to run and run! All makes for great entertainment in the run up to Russian Nationals!

Who needs reality TV, when we have got this....!

Eteri Tutberidze Strikes Back (Alina Zagitova, Evgeny Plushenko, Tatiana Tarasova)

Eteri Tutberidze had words for critics of Alina Zagitova's retirement and rivals Tatiana Tarasova and Evgeny Plushenko. An article was also printed with more...

m.youtube.com

 

[yeslek]

[QUOTE="rfisher, post: 5708654, member: 11090 Arutyunyan has made that statement multiple times that he'd prefer to not take the lower level skaters, but he does to support his business
[/QUOTE]

I thought he said he wished the us would support the younger skaters and that he could teach them from a lower age

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

But, if the team produces the Olympic/World champion each season/quad, why would they care who the skaters are? I'm pretty sure the Federation wouldn't care and certainly the younger skaters coming up don't. Younger skaters want the opportunity to win same as the older skaters. Why should they "sit on the bench" waiting their turn? This is the argument in the US for letting collage age players in football and basketball either go pro or be paid for endorsements. What if you sustain a career ending injury while you were "waiting for your turn" at the championship? There is $$$$ to be made for the top skaters in Russia and they all want part of that: skaters,parents, coaches, sponsors and the Federation. Will Russia run out of exceptional talent in ladies figure skating? Probably. Every great coach/team/country cycles. But, for now, there are a lot of 13-14 year olds looking 4 years ahead to an Olympic championship which could make their future very different and lucretative. It's been that way ever since Sotnikova won her first Russian championship at age 12.

They wouldn't. But I would suppose it's the matter of time until the skaters themselves, and mostly their parents, start wondering whether Tutberidze group is such a good idea, given that the time, money and health investment is not going to pay off unless the girl in question has been born on a specific year, in such way that she's 15 by the time of the Olympics.

It's one thing to win the Olympics and retire at the age of 17, and totally a different thing NOT to win the Olympics and not to have another chance, or even a skating career beyond 2 senior years due to a technique that just doesn't work once you hit 17. That's before we asked the question of how and at what cost those girls slowed down the puberty process to be able to stay on top for just a bit longer. Lipnitskaya, anyone?

And I don't think ISU is so thrilled either. It's true that the sport is about the athletes, but the success of the sport is about the fan$, and the personalities that draw the fans in. Maybe someone is able to give me an example of a star-idol-personality in ANY sport who had a whopping senior career of 3 years, Olympics or not, but I can't. So yeah, while Kwans and Kostners of the world might not be Olympic champions, but they are the ones ISU wants, they are the ones who made us follow this sport to begin with, and they are the ones who are going to be in the hall of fame.

Which brings me to the last point: the Russians have had an incredible wealth of ladies in the past ....god, it's just 6 years!!! it feels like an eternity!!!, but if someone follows the juniors circuit, it's pretty obvious they are slowly running out of depth. And once there's a small gap in the supply of 17 y.o-s there's no older girls to replace them. While, for instance, the Japanese ladies are here to stay, because they have an actual technique. So no, I don't think the Russian Federation shouldn't care about the coaching situation in Tutberidze group.

 

[Karen-W]

I am ecstatic at a worldwide stream for Russian Nats with Ted Barton commentating!!!! It should be slow at work on the 26th and 27th too.

And I'm loving this back and forth between Eteri and Plush. This is the kind of drama I need to take my mind off of the stupid people in my own life.

 

[Maofan7]

They wouldn't. But I would suppose it's the matter of time until the skaters themselves, and mostly their parents, start wondering whether Tutberidze group is such a good idea, given that the time, money and health investment is not going to pay off unless the girl in question has been born on a specific year, in such way that she's 15 by the time of the Olympics.

It's one thing to win the Olympics and retire at the age of 17, and totally a different thing NOT to win the Olympics and not to have another chance, or even a skating career beyond 2 senior years due to a technique that just doesn't work once you hit 17. That's before we asked the question of how and at what cost those girls slowed down the puberty process to be able to stay on top for just a bit longer. Lipnitskaya, anyone?

And I don't think ISU is so thrilled either. It's true that the sport is about the athletes, but the success of the sport is about the fan$, and the personalities that draw the fans in. Maybe someone is able to give me an example of a star-idol-personality in ANY sport who had a whopping senior career of 3 years, Olympics or not, but I can't. So yeah, while Kwans and Kostners of the world might not be Olympic champions, but they are the ones ISU wants, they are the ones who made us follow this sport to begin with, and they are the ones who are going to be in the hall of fame.

Which brings me to the last point: the Russians have had an incredible wealth of ladies in the past ....god, it's just 6 years!!! it feels like an eternity!!!, but if someone follows the juniors circuit, it's pretty obvious they are slowly running out of depth. And once there's a small gap in the supply of 17 y.o-s there's no older girls to replace them. While, for instance, the Japanese ladies are here to stay, because they have an actual technique. So no, I don't think the Russian Federation shouldn't care about the coaching situation in Tutberidze group.

Very well said! Sooner or later, the well will run dry. Invest in longevity, not short termism. That way, its a win win situation for all - Fed, coaches, and skaters (a virtuous circle as opposed to a vicious circle).

 

[hanca]

Which brings me to the last point: the Russians have had an incredible wealth of ladies in the past ....god, it's just 6 years!!! it feels like an eternity!!!, but if someone follows the juniors circuit, it's pretty obvious they are slowly running out of depth. And once there's a small gap in the supply of 17 y.o-s there's no older girls to replace them. While, for instance, the Japanese ladies are here to stay, because they have an actual technique. So no, I don't think the Russian Federation shouldn't care about the coaching situation in Tutberidze group.

I don’t see that they are running out of juniors. This year it was Valieva. Ok, after 3A we have been spoiled and suddenly instead of one girl per year we expect three, but in the past it usually were 1-2, some years were stronger and some weaker.
year 1 -Sotnikova, Tuktamysheva - 2 girls
Year 2 - Lipnitskaya-1 girl
Year 3 - Pogorilaya and Radionova -2 girls (Pogorilaya was already senior eligible same time as Lipnitskaya, but at the time she was not ready.
Year 4 - no one new at senior level
Year 5 - Medvedeva (one could say that there were 4 promising skaters, Medvedeva m Sakhanovich, Proklova and Sotskova, but only Medvedeva was moved up, Proklova was injured by then, Sakhanovich struggled and Sotskova was doing fine but not excellent.
Year 6 - Sotskova (who belonged to the previous year age group). Should have been Tsurskaya
Year 7 - Zagitova

It seems that every season there is only one or two skaters who are added. This year it is Trusova, Kostornaya and Scherbakova, next season it may be Sinitsina or Kanysheva (or the skaters who could have moved to seniors this season but were not considered ready - Vasilieva and Tarakanova). There is every coming year at least one good skater, so I can’t see Russians suddenly running out of ladies.
Season 21-22 it will be Valieva, season 22-23 Samodelkina and Muravieva, season 23-24 it will be Akatieva and Zhilina...

 

[muffinplus]

They wouldn't. But I would suppose it's the matter of time until the skaters themselves, and mostly their parents, start wondering whether Tutberidze group is such a good idea, given that the time, money and health investment is not going to pay off unless the girl in question has been born on a specific year, in such way that she's 15 by the time of the Olympics.

It's one thing to win the Olympics and retire at the age of 17, and totally a different thing NOT to win the Olympics and not to have another chance, or even a skating career beyond 2 senior years due to a technique that just doesn't work once you hit 17. That's before we asked the question of how and at what cost those girls slowed down the puberty process to be able to stay on top for just a bit longer. Lipnitskaya, anyone?

If winning the Olympics and retiring is totally didfferent then why are you bringing up Lipnitskaya? Has Zagitova lost her technique? Because she has had one really bad competition only...she still managed to qualify for GPF

I am not sure why Eteri training /coaching system is blamed for the fact that there are girls doing quads and triple axels...

 

[rfisher]

They wouldn't. But I would suppose it's the matter of time until the skaters themselves, and mostly their parents, start wondering whether Tutberidze group is such a good idea, given that the time, money and health investment is not going to pay off unless the girl in question has been born on a specific year, in such way that she's 15 by the time of the Olympics.

It's one thing to win the Olympics and retire at the age of 17, and totally a different thing NOT to win the Olympics and not to have another chance, or even a skating career beyond 2 senior years due to a technique that just doesn't work once you hit 17. That's before we asked the question of how and at what cost those girls slowed down the puberty process to be able to stay on top for just a bit longer. Lipnitskaya, anyone?

And I don't think ISU is so thrilled either. It's true that the sport is about the athletes, but the success of the sport is about the fan$, and the personalities that draw the fans in. Maybe someone is able to give me an example of a star-idol-personality in ANY sport who had a whopping senior career of 3 years, Olympics or not, but I can't. So yeah, while Kwans and Kostners of the world might not be Olympic champions, but they are the ones ISU wants, they are the ones who made us follow this sport to begin with, and they are the ones who are going to be in the hall of fame.

Which brings me to the last point: the Russians have had an incredible wealth of ladies in the past ....god, it's just 6 years!!! it feels like an eternity!!!, but if someone follows the juniors circuit, it's pretty obvious they are slowly running out of depth. And once there's a small gap in the supply of 17 y.o-s there's no older girls to replace them. While, for instance, the Japanese ladies are here to stay, because they have an actual technique. So no, I don't think the Russian Federation shouldn't care about the coaching situation in Tutberidze group.

No Japanese lady won a GP event this season and only 1 made it to the GPF and none at the JGPF. So, I'm not sure Japan is the right comparison. Kostner was extremely fortunate that there were no other Italian ladies to bump her out during her bad years (and there were several). That's simply not the case in Russia at present. 4 Russian ladies at both the junior and senior GP finals, and others make up the top 10 SB scores. There could be longer careers for the Russian ladies if there were more opportunities for them, but since only 3 can to to Europeans, Worlds and the Olympics, that makes the internal competition much more intense than the competition with the rest of the world. Do they just keep competing even when they don't get to go to the big events? Will the Russian Fed continue to support them financially? I really want Gubanova to just get a GP event, but it didn't happen this year and the Russian fed didn't even send her to challenger events. Do I expect her to keep shelling out money for training when she only gets to do the internal Russian competitions? No. Could she be world caliber skating for any other country? Yes and so could about 5 more skaters. Sadly, there is just too much depth in Russia at this point for any skater to continue to skate when they only get challenger events and just hope for a GP left over after the top 4-5 grab up 2 of them.

 

[Cherub721]

I'm not even sure what the Russian federation is supposed to do about this "problem?" Tell the younger girls to stop being so good? Stop funding Tutberidze? Force the girls to stay junior until they age out and prop up Med and Tuk?

 

[muffinplus]

I am a bit tired of reading about longevity of Kostner et al, who have never had this kind of competition in their own countries... Yes, I mentioned that already, but really...

 

[Cherub721]

I am a bit tired of reading about longevity of Kostner et al, who have never had this kind of competition in their own countries... Yes, I mentioned that already, but really...

It's funny because Kostner used to be attacked very viciously here until about 2011.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

If winning the Olympics and retiring is totally didfferent then why are you bringing up Lipnitskaya? Has Zagitova lost her technique? Because she has had one really bad competition only...she still managed to qualify for GPF

I am not sure why Eteri training /coaching system is blamed for the fact that there are girls doing quads and triple axels...

Because Lipnitskaya had to battle anorexia after she left Tutberidze. Good enough of a reason?

Zagitova didn't have "one bad competition only". This year her rotation rate of flips, lutzes and loops has been less than 50%. Or how about 2019 Europeans, where she underrotated both flips, lutz and toeloop in combo? If anything, she had less "good" competitions. And to lose technique one has to have it first. Underrotations, not falls are the first sign of lack of a technique. It means her timing, speed and take off are incorrect, and once weight/height are changed in the slightest, she doesn't have the basics to fall on(figuratively, obviously; no problems with literally here).

Eteri's training coaching system is not blamed for the quads and trixels; it's blamed for skaters not having a career past 3 years at seniors. At least Zagitova has the Olympic gold. But only one girl can have it in 4 years, and only 2 more can get to the Olympics at all. What about the rest? With proper technique they could have gotten another chance, or at least get some GP medals, something. But no, by the age of 17 they are just "used material", old and fat (TM) and should concentrate of being frigin' grandmothers.

 

[AYS]

Ted is the best commentator around at the moment, and looking forward to his commentary at Russian Nationals

In my admittedly un-FSU-like unsnarky way, I love how positive and supportive he is, especially given he's usually commenting on young skaters. You get that he truly appreciates the performances and the skill.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

I am a bit tired of reading about longevity of Kostner et al, who have never had this kind of competition in their own countries... Yes, I mentioned that already, but really...

...and your point is? So yeah, it's more difficult for the Russian girls to get to the Europeans and worlds. How about GPs, B-internationals, Universiades, etc etc etc? They get funding, something that never happened to Kostner. How about the Japanese or American ladies? How about Tuktamysheva or Leonova, for gods sake? Why is it impossible to have a long career in a more competitive country?

 

[BittyBug]

Arutyunyan has made that statement multiple times that he'd prefer to not take the lower level skaters, but he does to support his business

Actually he's made exactly the opposite comment - that he prefers to train his skaters from the beginning because when they come to him later in their career, they often have terrible skating skills and it's too late for him to improve them.

 

[Bigbird]

I love listening to TAT while she comments on skating. When it is her favourite skater, the noises she is making are comparable to the noises from some sex saloon.

The Kardashians have nothing on the TAT. People might pay good money for that reality show.

 

[Maofan7]

Because Lipnitskaya had to battle anorexia after she left Tutberidze. Good enough of a reason?

Zagitova didn't have "one bad competition only". This year her rotation rate of flips, lutzes and loops has been less than 50%. Or how about 2019 Europeans, where she underrotated both flips, lutz and toeloop in combo? If anything, she had less "good" competitions. And to lose technique one has to have it first. Underrotations, not falls are the first sign of lack of a technique. It means her timing, speed and take off are incorrect, and once weight/height are changed in the slightest, she doesn't have the basics to fall on(figuratively, obviously; no problems with literally here).

Eteri's training coaching system is not blamed for the quads and trixels; it's blamed for skaters not having a career past 3 years at seniors. At least Zagitova has the Olympic gold. But only one girl can have it in 4 years, and only 2 more can get to the Olympics at all. What about the rest? With proper technique they could have gotten another chance, or at least get some GP medals, something. But no, by the age of 17 they are just "used material", old and fat (TM) and should concentrate of being frigin' grandmothers.

Great post. And it raises the the wider question of whether that kind of production line mentality where skaters are nothing more than cogs in a wheel that can be discarded after only a few short years is what the ISU really wants this sport to be.

 

[muffinplus]

Because Lipnitskaya had to battle anorexia after she left Tutberidze. Good enough of a reason?

So? Still don't see how that relates to Zagitova... whose situation is not the same

Zagitova didn't have "one bad competition only". This year her rotation rate of flips, lutzes and loops has been less than 50%. Or how about 2019 Europeans, where she underrotated both flips, lutz and toeloop in combo? If anything, she had less "good" competitions. And to lose technique one has to have it first. Underrotations, not falls are the first sign of lack of a technique. It means her timing, speed and take off are incorrect, and once weight/height are changed in the slightest, she doesn't have the basics to fall on(figuratively, obviously; no problems with literally here).

She had a very clean skate at Test Skates with no UR and has been reportedly quite solid in practices. OK then, I guess according to you then she won competitions with no technique. Whatever. So I guess she was just gifted her spot in GPF.

Eteri's training coaching system is not blamed for the quads and trixels; it's blamed for skaters not having a career past 3 years at seniors. At least Zagitova has the Olympic gold. But only one girl can have it in 4 years, and only 2 more can get to the Olympics at all. What about the rest? With proper technique they could have gotten another chance, or at least get some GP medals, something. But no, by the age of 17 they are just "used material", old and fat (TM) and should concentrate of being frigin' grandmothers.

Why is this exclusively an Eteri problem when Pogorilaya and Radionova also retired after very short careers? (1 or more seasons longer than Eteri girls). This has nothing to do with proper technique, but the amount of competition in one country. I am done.

 

[Bigbird]

Great post. And it raises the the wider question of whether that kind of production line mentality where skaters are nothing more than cogs in a wheel that can be discarded after only a few short years is what the ISU really wants this sport to be.

This is the Russian way of life it seems to me.

 

[muffinplus]

...and your point is? So yeah, it's more difficult for the Russian girls to get to the Europeans and worlds. How about GPs, B-internationals, Universiades, etc etc etc? They get funding, something that never happened to Kostner. How about the Japanese or American ladies? How about Tuktamysheva or Leonova, for gods sake? Why is it impossible to have a long career in a more competitive country?

That it it's a bit ridiculous to fawn over other someone like Kostner having a long career and hasn't had the same challenges and to blame Tutberidze for short careers. Tuktamysheva hasn't been to Worlds in a few years and Gubanova can't get a Grand Prix as was mentioned

 

[hanca]

Great post. And it raises the the wider question of whether that kind of production line mentality where skaters are nothing more than cogs in a wheel that can be discarded after only a few short years is what the ISU really wants this sport to be.

I don’t think ISU cares that much whether skaters stay in seniors for 2 years or20 years. It is just a bunch of unhappy posters on a forum that are not happy. And the same people who are unhappy with how it is now would not say a word if it was their country in the same position. So it is a bit hypocritical.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

I'm not even sure what the Russian federation is supposed to do about this "problem?" Tell the younger girls to stop being so good? Stop funding Tutberidze? Force the girls to stay junior until they age out and prop up Med and Tuk?

I think a good start would have been awarding good technique, speed, edges and lines rather than overlooking prerotations and those god awful lutz entrances. And awarding proper PCS rather than inflating it as a function of number of rotations. Of course, this is not just the Russians' problem, ISU would have made themselves a favor too if they were at least consistent on the calls and demanded from the judges ANY connection to the reality while giving PCS. As of now, you can know EXACTLY who's the current RusFed's pet by checking the GOE and PCS from season to season.

And yeah, there's no obvious solution, and not much to do. Won't prevent me from rolling my eyes at the situation, though.

 

[Ka3sha]

Mishin’s comment:

It is necessary to stop the hatred.
Something unimaginable is going on in our sport. It seems to me that people who are not satisfied with their own lives are engaged in this “splashing” of figure skating in various media and social networks.
I have given two comments recently. I wished Alina Zagitova happiness and good luck, said that she will have different stages in her life. Once she was a child, then she became a teenager, a young lady, and she will become a wife, mother, grandmother. So all of this was translated in a wrong way, even perverted. They said that Mishin is crazy: he is an old man himself and that Alina is an old woman as well.
Then I spoke about doping, about the Olympic Games. Unfortunately, some of our athletes won’t be allowed to compete there. And athletes can find out about it in a very last moment, on the day of their departure to the Games or already on the Olympic territory. So I said that for such athletes, who aimed their lives at achieving a high results in sports, it is necessary to organize some kind of competition here in Russia. And they wrote that Mishin wants to hold an alternative Olympics, in which only Russia, Abkhazia, South Ossetia, Zimbabwe will take part in.
When will people improve their self-esteem? When will they learn to speak humanly and tactfully. They ask me to comment on the verbal battles of the Entente and the Triple Alliance. Different statements were made by Tatiana Tarasova, Zhenya Plushenko and Eteri Tutberidze’s coaching team. I don’t want to interfere in this. People play ping pong with balls of chocolate jam. The fewer people comment, the faster things calm down, the healthier our sport will be. Already brutalized by anger. I want to wish those who are involved in all this: engage in self-cleaning, then figure skating will be cleaner.
They ask me to comment on the verbal battles of the Entente and the Triple Alliance. Statements are made by Tatyana Tarasova, Zhenya Plushenko, the coaching staff of Eteri Tutberidze. I do not want to interfere in this. People play ping pong with balls of chocolate jam. The fewer people comment, the faster things will calm down, the healthier our sport will be. It has already been brutalized by anger. I want to wish those who are involved in all of this: engage yourselves in self-cleaning, then figure skating will be cleaner and healthier.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

I don’t think ISU cares that much whether skaters stay in seniors for 2 years or20 years. It is just a bunch of unhappy posters on a forum that are not happy. And the same people who are unhappy with how it is now would not say a word if it was their country in the same position. So it is a bit hypocritical.

I call BS.
First of all, I don't have a country to be in the same position, so the notion of preference of one country over the other is ridiculous. Second of all, it's highly doubtful ISU doesn't care; looking at the rules changes every season, it seems like they are not crazy about the situation either, and to remind you: Lakernik is a Russian. And thirdly, it's very simple to dismiss the criticism as "haters and jealousy" and attack the person, rather than addressing the arguments. So here.

 

[her grace]

Kostner was extremely fortunate that there were no other Italian ladies to bump her out during her bad years (and there were several).

Marchei did beat Kostner at Italian Nationals twice, but Italy had enough spots to send both Kostner and Marchei to Euros, and if there was only one world spot, Kostner got it.

Zagitova didn't have "one bad competition only". This year her rotation rate of flips, lutzes and loops has been less than 50%. Or how about 2019 Europeans, where she underrotated both flips, lutz and toeloop in combo? If anything, she had less "good" competitions. And to lose technique one has to have it first. Underrotations, not falls are the first sign of lack of a technique. It means her timing, speed and take off are incorrect, and once weight/height are changed in the slightest, she doesn't have the basics to fall on(figuratively, obviously; no problems with literally here).

Frankly, her rotation has always been suspicious. If she received Miki Ando-level scrutiny on those 3z-3r, she wouldn't have gotten credit. The top skaters from powerful feds often seem to be protected from carrots and edge calls. Once the star starts to slip, AKA the country has other better options, then the marks go down and the calls go up. Ex. Med receiving edge calls. Zag getting underrotation calls. Samodurova's PCS going down. Wagner getting more underrotation calls at the end of her career, etc.

 

[muffinplus]

BTW Sotskova (who everyone has forgotten about) is another non-Eteri Russian lady who is struggling after 17 with consistency after being Russian top 3 just 2 years ago. (And yes with UR as well.) So...

 

[rfisher]

Come on. Surely Rukavicin, Buianova or Chebotareva can weigh in? They all have female skaters who are being left behind. Panova doesn't have any senior skaters, but surely she has something to say?

 

[Skibean]

With so many saying Zagitova should switch countries or skate for the US- please remember that both Mariah and Bradie beat Zagitova this season. Mariah won the LP and Bradie overall, so Zagitova wouldn’t be guaranteed wins in the US. She also got beat by Rika, so that rules out Japan also.
Her technique was failing her and she made a very wise choice. As for the drama with the adults in Russia, I feel for the skaters being out in the middle. I remember when Eteri publicly lashed out at Medvedeva for leaving her, and she did the same with other skaters before her. It’s a shame Eteri resorts to this.

 

[Andrey aka Pushkin]

I don’t see that they are running out of juniors. This year it was Valieva. Ok, after 3A we have been spoiled and suddenly instead of one girl per year we expect three, but in the past it usually were 1-2, some years were stronger and some weaker.
...

They are if you watch the competition. In the past two cycles Russians always had 2-3 ladies who were head and shoulders above the rest. This season the results are similar, kind of, but if you look at the actual performances, with the possible exception of Valieva, none of the Russian juniors is that invincible. While the 3A and Zagitova, Medvedeva etc who dominated their junior seasons moved to the seniors to immediately take over the seniors as well, I really don't expect this to happen with any of the current Russian junior girls, again, with the possible exception of Valieva. The rest are going to be mid-pack at best.

And if the 3A fall apart like all the other Russians before them after a couple of seasons, the leadership might pass to the Japanese/American girls who are currently playing the second fiddle, but have actual strong basics that will make them last beyond 2 seasons.

P.S. I kind of bundle Kostornaya with the rest, but she in fact has very solid basics and (fingers crossed) will make it if she wants.