Feb 13, 2020: Hersh article about possible ISU changes

[Orm Irian]

Should a fall on a jump takeoff (no rotation, or less than 1 revolution) be worth the same as a fall on a rotated quad?

Since, in this approach, they'd both be considered incomplete/invalid elements, yes, it should.

 

[gkelly]

I'm OK with the current -5 and fall deduction penalty, which together mean that a fall on a rotated quad is always worth less than a so-so landed triple of the same takeoff.

I didn't like it a few years ago when, e.g., a quad lutz was worth 13.6 and the maximum GOE reduction was 3.0, so a fall on a rotated 4Lz would still earn 9.6 after the GOE reduction and fall deduction. That needed to change, and fortunately it did.

And of course a fall on a downgraded quad is worth much less than a landed rotated triple, because the base values are the same and the GOE would be much lower, in addition to the deduction.

Fall on "underrotated" quad would be somewhere in between, but significantly less than a landed triple.

(Today, a fall on a rotated 4Lz would be worth 4.75 after reduction and fall deduction. Fall on 4Lz< would be worth 3.6. Fall on 4Lz<< would be 1.95. Soso 3Lz is worth 5.9.)

 

[Tee]

Regarding ISU changes has anyone else heard Rhythm dance for Junior 2020-2021 has been changed from Westminster to Quickstep? When does ISU release/confirm patterns/ theme for next season if there have been updates?

 

[MacMadame]

We watched those empty stands all through the ground prix season why would that be? maybe because skating has become too difficult to understand and too difficult to explain to a casual fan.

The stands were empty under 6.0 judging too. That issue is due to poor marketing, not the scoring system.

 

[CaliSteve]

I do think Jason Brown-type skaters deserve to be rewarded, but the thing is... he IS rewarded! Winning silver at 4CC without a quad is an amazing coup! (I think Kostornaia is a somewhat imperfect comparison for him in the ladies' field because she remains competitive with Trusova and Shcherbakova even without quads--though you could say her execution of the jumps she has is better than theirs, and of course she has a 3A. The fact ladies can't include quads in the short helps her massively here, so the artistic/technical division is already in place to an extent... The ISU could just extend it to the men's event if they like its effects.) The only issue is that skaters like him need to build up a reputation with the judges before they can start getting the PCS boost they deserve relative to other top skaters, which may sometimes take a couple of seasons.

If anything, someone should take up Kihira's cause because her jumping technique is cleaner than any other top lady's (including that of Kostornaia, whose Lutzes and Flips are sometimes suspect), but that's not reflected in her GOEs.

Also, regarding spins, which were mentioned earlier... It bugs me to no end that the best spinners do not get rewarded for their superior skills. I get that jumps are harder and really should be worth more points, but it's appalling that having better spins than anyone else in the field is worth 1-2 points at most. I think one way to address this would be to increase the BV of L4 spins and rework the criteria so that slow/travelling/laboured spins can't qualify for that level. But IDK if the judges would use the GOE as intended if that happened.

As you can probably tell, I find the way GOEs are currently awarded more problematic than the PCS... I don't think GOEs allow for meaningful differentiation based on element quality among the top skaters as it stands now.

Jason was deservingly rewarded but he was in a less competitive field and a lot of the skaters did not have clean skates.

I do think the ISU needs to examine the factoring percentages in ladies' components before they propose any kind of changes that were mentioned in Phil's article. They also need to look at PCS scoring. Otherwise, nothing will change.

 

[Japanfan]

The stands were empty under 6.0 judging too. That issue is due to poor marketing, not the scoring system.

Yes. Casual fans never bothered with the details of the scoring system under either 6.0 or CoP. More serious fans did bother, and moved along with CoP.

 

[jlai]

Jason was deservingly rewarded but he was in a less competitive field and a lot of the skaters did not have clean skates.

I do think the ISU needs to examine the factoring percentages in ladies' components before they propose any kind of changes that were mentioned in Phil's article. They also need to look at PCS scoring. Otherwise, nothing will change.

At 4cc, there were like 13 clean or near clean skates in the short? And some seasons bests in the LP that didn't make the podium?

 

[CaliSteve]

At 4cc, there were like 13 clean or near clean skates in the short? And some seasons bests in the LP that didn't make the podium?

Boyang, Keegan, and Junhwan had higher scoring potential.

 

[CaliSteve]

The stands were empty under 6.0 judging too. That issue is due to poor marketing, not the scoring system.

I think there are a lot of reasons including marketing and to some extent, scoring.

 

[DreamSkates]

Do you think anything should be changed about points and falls? Or just fewer points overall for a quad?

Honestly, I don't have a clear answer for that question but it does seem like quads may garner too many points compared to triples, albeit they are much more difficult especially in combination.
Falls...obviously before rotations, zero. If after - seems there are already many points deducted. Negative GOE plus -1. I'm not sure why I write down zero for a fall. Must have been in a bad mood. Seems the debate about points just goes on and on .

 

[ZilphaK]

I'd like the short program to have more/all required elements that change every year, a la the jump in the junior program. And don't necessarily have an axel be a required jumps. Same with spins, make some features requirements each year, like program must have a combo spin that includes an opposite direction spin with two features in opposite direction. Or layback with a change foot.

Or, you know, something like "Everyone has to skate to Michael Buble for the SP."